| Author | Message | ||
| 1975GT4Don (1975gt4don)
New member Username: 1975gt4don Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2002 |
Mitchell, to help protect that oil cooler line from future damage, you might think about putting an old cooling hose around the part of the oil line that rubs up against the clutch housing. The rubber hose acts as an extra barrier against the metal braided oil line from receiving a deep cut from the rubbing from vibration of the oil line up against the clutch housing. that oil line is not cheap :-) I just used an old radiator hose, cut a slit down the center of the hose lengthwise and then put the rubber hose over the oil line and used hose clamps on each end to hold it in place. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 59 Registered: 11-2001 |
I have 53000 miles on my car, but who knows how trustworthy that reading is. The cam problem was not from the mileage, but from a blown oil line to the cooler. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 462 Registered: 6-2001 |
How many miles were on that engine? | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
New member Username: Billb Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2001 |
Forgot to mention that Web Cam Racing Cams in Riverside CA can repair the camshaft. Contact them at 909-369-5144 or www.webcaminc.com | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
New member Username: Billb Post Number: 22 Registered: 6-2001 |
My Daytona had a similar cam bearing bore problem. We repaired using a vertical lathe to bore the hole oversize. Then installed a VW Beetle cam bearing pair. You have to hand file a notch for the bearing tangs. The VW bearing bore is the same as the Ferrari bore in the aluminum head. | ||
| KARL DASTOLI (Luch)
New member Username: Luch Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2001 |
Mitchell, Sorry I meant to say the journal seat and cap in your alluminum head. LUCH | ||
| KARL DASTOLI (Luch)
New member Username: Luch Post Number: 45 Registered: 2-2001 |
Mitchell, The cam journal is a relatively easy fix. I own a hi-tech mold shop and we do repairs on parting lines with micro welding. The groves need to be cleaned and filled with the proper alloy and rebored to original tolerances. Micro welding creates almost not heat stress. They can put a bead on the edge of a razor blade! Check around your area for someone with a micro-welder...usually a mold shop. LUCH | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2001 |
Steve The previous owner "Elgin" sold the shop to his employees and he now concentrates in the front doing only cam works. He quoted me something fairly reasonable to repair the cam shaft. His employees (3 of them) that bought the machine shop seem to have a very different opinions of their worth, and therefore the difference in price. Much thanks for the recommendation, even if it did not work out, it it your effort that I appreciate. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 553 Registered: 1-2001 |
Mitchell -- I'm sorry the recommendation didn't work out. I checked my records and the Techcraft labor charge for installing new guides and valves was ~$530 (in 1992) so the situation seems quite different. Let us know how it turns out. PS I wouldn't reuse any of the exhaust valves -- they lead a difficult thermal/stress life. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 498 Registered: 1-2001 |
Anyone contact Nick on this yet? Might be worth a try... -Ben | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 551 Registered: 1-2001 |
Mitchell -- yes, I too sometimes get charged the "Ferrari" price on things. I'll check my records to see what I paid Techcraft in 1992. One thing to consider is that a high quote can sometimes just mean that a business has plenty of work at a particular time so they can afford to discourage you. | ||
| 1975GT4Don (1975gt4don)
New member Username: 1975gt4don Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2002 |
yelcab, "...$1840 for the labor on a "regular" head valve job. Minimum of $360 for the repair on the one scored journal" is ^&)(^)^)* outrageous. What a bunch of rip off artists. You could do the valve grinding and seat grinding yourself as well as the reinstallation of the valves to the head. Knurling guides or installing new ones is not rocket science. I would tell that machine shop to take a hike. $90 per hour is astronomical. I would only pay for them to do the $400 repair on the cam journal. Call around to more machine shops, that "shop" you contacted sounds more like a Ferrari mechanic garage, not a machine shop. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Junior Member Username: Dave Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2001 |
I was quoted a price of around $2500.00 US to have my 308 heads done, and that included porting, polishing, and flow... I would do them myself having done a number of heads over the years, but without access to the flow bench we had years back, it would be like guessing with a grinder.... | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2001 |
This is what they said: Disassembly, cleaning, resetting the valve guides, seals, machining the surface, "leave the seats alone," reassemble, reset the valve heights, reset the spring heights and that is all. This does not include any valves, or seals. Repairing the scored journal is extra $400 for 4 hours work at $90 an hour. There must be a boat payment buried in that quote somewhere. What are we, made out of money? | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1611 Registered: 12-2000 |
Find out from them what exactly is entailed in the "regular" job. What do you want done to the heads? Replace guides, cut new seats, etc...? You're right, it does take a while to get parts from across the Pond. It was easier for me as I was there to pick them up  | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2001 |
OK, I just received a quote from Techcraft machine shop for the valve jobs on a 308GT4 heads. $1840 for the labor on a "regular" head valve job. Minimum of $360 for the repair on the one scored journal. Maybe I am a bit picky, but that does not sound ... reasonable to me. What do you think? I have never done a head job, but I bet the disassembly and reassembly can be done by me. The machine work can be jobbed out, but ... $2000. That is a bit enthusiastic on the price quote. Must be the Ferrari mistique. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
New member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2001 |
Peter I bought stuff from Superformance too. Only problem is the shipping takes soooo long (after 9/11) that it is very annoying. What is the recommendation for intake valves, just use the factory ones? Ric Rainbolt, did you ever find the name of the valve place you bought from? | ||
| Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Junior Member Username: Eurocardoc Post Number: 176 Registered: 11-2001 |
You may want to investigate the repair versus replace prices after getting estimates, typically heads are pretty cheap to buy used. Elgin do a great job, I have used them for over 10 years. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1604 Registered: 12-2000 |
Mitchell, I bought all of my exhaust valves from Superformance in England. They are stainless, tufftrided and stellite-welded valve tips and valve head seats. They are beautifully made and only cost (at the time I bought 'em) 26 UK Pounds ea. Certainly better than these time-bomb sodium crap. Jorma Johansson (sp?) on this site once said that the valves from a Euro Ford (which model?) will fit, with only minor machine work to the tip (to make it fit the Ferrari keepers). | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
New member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2002 |
"Where do I get decently priced valves?" I had a set of exhaust valves made for my 308. I forget who made them now. I'll have to go through my records when I get home. They ran something like $38 or so each. They're stainless with a hardened steel tip. At time, I also found a place that made Titanium valves for just a little more, but for my application (turbo), it wasn't an acceptable material to use. On a related note, I also found a place that has valve guides (made from better materials) for around $8 (www.sivalves.com). | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 545 Registered: 1-2001 |
Mitchell -- The cam shop is Elgin Cams: www.elgincams.com and the machine shop next door is Techcraft: http://www.plantfloor.com/ca/techcraftmachineshopservice.htm I'm just a satisfied customer -- Techcraft did the headwork on my ex-308 (at a very fair price IMHO), and if your cam needs some work I think Elgin has a very impressive F resume so it wouldn't be something new for them. Who is/was going to do your headwork? | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
New member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2001 |
Steve, I live 2 miles from Redwood City in the Bay Area. What is the name of the shop? Do you know the owner? | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 543 Registered: 1-2001 |
Mitchell -- where are you located? (IMHO it would help if people would put this info in their profile -- at least country) I know a machine shop and a cam shop in Redwood City, CA that could probably help with the repair at reasonable cost, but it doesn't make sense to get involved with them unless the shipping arrangement is reasonable. | ||
| Robert Davis (H2oquick)
Junior Member Username: H2oquick Post Number: 68 Registered: 8-2001 |
Looks like something got into the journel or it had an oiling problem on that bank. It matters how deep the scores are on the head to the repair or not. I would take it to a reliable head shop to check that. The camshaft I have not seen, but usually regrinding camshafts is to change valve lift. Grinding the camshaft for oil clearance, I am not sure. On American cars that use cam bearings you can use an oversized bearing and have the cam turned. But I believe Ferrari does not use cam bearings, so I believe if the cam is blued or scored bad it is trash. I would opt for a new replacement. Also another reason for what has happen is misaligned cam or out of true. I would look carefully for any cracks in the camshaft itself. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
New member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2001 |
This is the reason the engine is coming apart. Actually, it looks worse than it is. Only 1 journal our of 20 is bad, so it is repairable. I just have to find a good machine shop to build it up and hone it down. And I also have some bent valves, just do not know how many. Where do I get decently priced valves? The crank is another story but I have not gotten into the block yet. I need to mount the engine on the yolk, have some friends help me lift the engine on the stand before I can disassemble it. I wanted to drive it for another few months before I get into the rebuild but it just did not work out. Oh well, there are worse problems in life, I suppose. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2028 Registered: 2-2001 |
Whew, That gives me cold chills just looking at it. Mitchel, Maybe I missed something but is this the reason you took the engine apart or did you discover this on disassembly. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Junior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 89 Registered: 12-2001 |
no......I wouldnt reuse. Im assuming the cam is similar. Repair both. I dont see why the head cant be tig welded and resized to standard. The cam can also be welded and reground. Take a shot of the crank too once its out and the rods as well. Paul. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
New member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well, Here are the pictures, 1. The good journal on the other cam Mitchell  2. The scored journal  What do the experts think? can it be repaired? ML | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
New member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2001 |
Paul I tried to post some pictures but the files are way above 150K limit. Anyway the journal that is scored is the #5 one next to the timing belt pulley on the intake cam of 1-4 cylinders. Given that is the position, would you still recommend cleaning it off and reusing it? Mitchell | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Junior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2001 |
I would say both can be repaired. Post a picture if you can. If the score isnt too bad, clean off any burrs on both parts and reuse. That may sound bad on a Ferrari but if there are no high spots, no more scoring will occur and consider it an oil groove. You wont loose oil pressure from it and like I said, if there are no high spots or burrs, it wont hurt anything. To repair the cam is no problem, weld and regrind the journal. The head is a different story. It can be repaired but I would be concerned about the alignment of the cam journals after a machine shop had a hone in there after they did some tig welding. Its an expensive head to replace if they screw it up (thousands of $$$). | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
New member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2001 |
Disassembled the engine to the point where the heads are off from the block. So far this is what I have found: 1. One cam-shaft is scored at one of the 5 bearing journals where the caps. The journal surface at that point is also scored on the head. 2. All other camshafts are OK, as well the the other 19 journal surfaces / caps. 3. The piston and cylinder seem OK from above the block, but I have to disassemble the block internal to find out more for sure. So, question for the machinist experts on the board is: "Do I need both a new head and a camshaft, or can the head be repaired by some machining work / welding / etc?" We, the American society, seem to just up and replace everything but that is not the way the rest of the world works. There must be a way to "repair" this expensive head. |