| Author |
Message |
Scott Anderson (Srandrsn)
Junior Member
Username: Srandrsn
Post Number: 83
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 6:57 pm: | |
I'm certainly not an expert, and I don't know if this helps but when I first bought my 308 the gas tank was like 1/4 full. I go out driving around a little enjoying the new toy...theres no problems at all. So I need to put gas in the thing. I take off the gas cap and the back pressure/suction was incredible, it would have sucked in a small bird had it happened by, anyway I fill up with gas and it wont start..absolutely no fuel flowing anywhere. Turns out the fuel pump was dead. Replaced the pump and all is fine except for an irregular idle but the point of my story is that there was enough pressure in the tank, the accumulator, or just from the expansion of gas fumes; where ever to run the car with a dead fuel pump. I have no idea why or how that could be but I just thought it was odd and another mysterious aspect of owning a Ferrari |
Richelson (Richelson)
Member
Username: Richelson
Post Number: 543
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 5:20 pm: | |
Greg, I hope that we can help you fix your problem. I know how excited you are about your new car. I am thinking that the line must have vacuum or pressure on it to reach the top of the tank to. Where are the experts? Come guys we need you? If it worked before than it probably is linked to this hose. You could always replace the hose. If you get a chance check it tomorrow and see if there is fuel in the hose as maybe the pressure change ripped the diaphram in the accumulator. Let us know if we can help. |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Junior Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 146
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 5:06 pm: | |
Doesn't the line lead to the top of the fuel tank? If it does, it must have some pressure to get it to the top. That would be quite a climb without any pressure or vacuum. |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 1915
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 4:53 pm: | |
No it wouldn't have that strong a vacuum on it (if any), it's not like pulling an airlock off the space shuttle or anything. Did anything else get moved around when working? Also how has the weather been the last few days? The last couple of days by me have gotten significantly warmer by me, this can often change starting patterns if there is a problem. Where's Edward, Nick, or Brian? They have to know about this fuel stuff more. |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Junior Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 145
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 2:11 pm: | |
I am not sure what the problem is. The car has never had a cold start issue. When I removed the line, like I stated earlier only 1/2 of a drop came out. After that I just hooked the line right back up and tightened the hose clamp. It seems that I lost pressure as when I went to fire it up about 10 minutes after putting the car back together the car wouldn't start. It took about 30 secs. to get it going. I then went out to to pick something up and it started great when warm with about a 5 min. wait. Then went home. I tried to start it this morning and it wouldn't fire right up. Do you think when I released the pressure off of the hose that it could have possibly torn the diaphram? |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peter
Post Number: 1658
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 1:32 pm: | |
That line going back to the tank is just an emergency drain, if the accumulator diaphram inside leaks. When fuel enters the accumulator, it goes through a calibrated hole into the: "storage compartment" (keeps fuel in there when engine is shut-off to aid priming when hot starting).
It also functions to delay pressure build-up in the primary circuit (the one delivering fuel to the distribution head) during engine starting.
If, Greg, you mentioned your fuel pump doesn't have a check valve, it may be that your accumulator is always dumping fuel back up the line and back into the tanks when its shut down, thus when always starting up, it takes a while to build up pressure and fire-up (although this doesn't really explain why it worked before and now it doesn't).
|
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Junior Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 144
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 1:06 pm: | |
Yes, that is what is weird about it. It has never given me a cold start issue. Then after I checked the accum. yesterday it has taken quite a while to start when cold. I tried it this morning and it won't start well at all. Normally, as soon as I turn the key it would light. Now it takes about 10-15 sec. I am not sure what happened. All I did was pull the line off and then put it back on. |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 1913
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 12:30 pm: | |
This is all from what I understand about it: It vents gases up to the top of the gas tank from what I've gathered. I would imagine it has a certain amount of vacuum placed upon it by the gas tank sending gas out and greating a slight low pressure situation, but it's not like a vacuum line from the brakes, etc. Taking it off and then putting it back on shouldn't cause any new starting problems. I think the accumulator being shot would more affect hot start problems than cold start. Makes me think that the accumulator wouldn't be the culprit. Was it troublesome to start again today when cold? |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Junior Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 143
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 12:12 pm: | |
My car always started when cold, now after I put it back together it doesn't want to start as easily. It took about 10 secs. to start when cold. Is that a vacuum line that I removed? Does it lose pressure when that line is removed? What does the line do? Thanks. |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Junior Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 141
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 6:10 pm: | |
I pulled the cloth hose on my accumulator. When I pulled it nothing came out. I shook it about 5 times and then I got one very small drop of gas, probably a 1/2 of drop. Is this a sign that it could be going bad and in need of replacement? Also, after I put it back together it took forever for my car to start. Is this because I open the line? I will say that I drove my car and let it sit then I tried to start it and it fired right up in about 2-3secs. |
ctk (Ctk)
New member
Username: Ctk
Post Number: 40
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 4:45 pm: | |
The sensor plate setting with a cold engine is a critical adjustment. It relates and affects idling, starting and CO setting. If your engine starts easily and idles smoothly when cold and your CO can be set within specs. don't touch it. As a test, with the engine idling, air bellow(hose) removed gently press down on the sensor plate. If engine becomes smoother, fine tuning can be done. If engine stalls, you probably have it set up okay. Adjusting the sensor plate height is not amusing and shouldn't be attempted, watch a FI pro do it to get tips. Having said all this, a well maintained K-Jet is very reliable, clean fuel and regular filter changes are tops. |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 1897
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 12:29 pm: | |
Brian I meant the cold idle, sorry. How do you know that your throttle plate is in the proper position? I figure while everything's apart it would be easy to setup right. Do you just set it so when it's at rest it lets the TPS click down on that switch? |
Kelly J. Vince (Tifosi1)
Junior Member
Username: Tifosi1
Post Number: 144
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 12:26 pm: | |
In the old days, when a car was running bad, my uncle always poored a full Quarter of tranny f
fluid down the old carb. BOY look at that smoke. I never could tell if it helped the engine any.
I really don't think I would do it to a ferrari.
Kelly |
stu cordova (Balataboy)
Junior Member
Username: Balataboy
Post Number: 201
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 8:35 am: | |
Hey guys,
I bought my accumulator at The Wagon Shop - a local V/W parts house for $113 (OK a little over 100 bucks, but still less than the $325 Ferrari wanted!). The part number is (Bosch)
B 0 438 170 004. This fit my 85 QV, but again, did not solve my hot start issue. Good luck!
Thoughts an this one.....I stopped by a local repair shop - speciality is Volvo - one day to visit a friend and I mentioned my hot start issue to the head guy and he recomended - get this - for me to dump a quart of ATF in the gas tank. Said it would clear up the problem for sure. Well needless to say, I haven't done this out of fear of doing major damage, but who knows???
Anybody else heard of this - or willing to give it a try? How could it help or, more importantly, what could it hurt? |
Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Junior Member
Username: Eurocardoc
Post Number: 205
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 5:26 am: | |
On injected cars the idle speed is controlled by a bypass screw. It is under the plenum intake on the throttle valve on QV and on the side for earlier cars. A big hex. Do not adjust the throttle plate, this should be at a preset position, and on QV controls the idle contact inside the throttle position sensor (TPS). |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 889
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 4:44 am: | |
You can have a whole bunch of things wrong with your fuel injection and the thing will still start good cold. When it is hot is when it's ability to hold pressure comes into play. Fuel will boil inside the system with a hot engine. If the fuel is pressurized it will raise the boiling point of the fuel just as a radiator cap does on your cooling system. You can check the fuel pressure on your car when it is cold and have zero rest pressure yet the thing will start up almost instantly but if it does not hold pressure for at least several hours it will be hard to start hot. Premium fuel also will help hot starting since it has a higher boiling point. |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 1885
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 9:27 pm: | |
Brian I got lost at All Bosch. I follow it pretty much. Maybe you would know, how can the high idle be turned down? I know it can be down with the stock system, I'm just a little confused as to how. |
Kelly J. Vince (Tifosi1)
Junior Member
Username: Tifosi1
Post Number: 143
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 9:12 pm: | |
Brian,
No offense, but you just gave me a headace.
haha |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 1882
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 9:09 pm: | |
It's tough to say for sure. Mine started fine when cold and my problem was the accumulator. It's a very easy test, probably the easiest to test out of the whole fuel system, so it's worth it to take a look if you have problems. It's by no means the only thing that goes wrong though, or has the potential to do so. |
Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Junior Member
Username: Eurocardoc
Post Number: 202
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 9:09 pm: | |
All Bosch CIS are basically the same, you check the pressure byinserting the gauge in the line from the fuel distributor head going to the wqarm up regulator. The gauge is teed off and will show control pressure until you close off the line just before the warm up regulator, at that time it will indicate the system pressure. The system pressure is controlled by the relief valve inside the fuel distributor head. The warm up regulator sets the control pressure (which is being bled off through a small orifice inside of the fuel distributor head). Confused yet? |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Junior Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 136
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 8:01 pm: | |
So, if the car starts easy cold then it wouldn't be the accumulator? |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 885
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 7:59 pm: | |
The accumulator holds pressure cold or hot. It is basicly a spring loaded can with a diaphragm that smooths out the fuel flow and helps retain rest pressure. |
Kelly J. Vince (Tifosi1)
Junior Member
Username: Tifosi1
Post Number: 137
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 7:50 pm: | |
Thx guys for all your input. I noticed in my records that the guy who always serviced the car, was always checking the fuel pressure. I forgot how much he charged all the time. But I think I'll just talk to him when it comes time to check the pressures.
I'm gong to check the accumulator this weekend.
I'll let yawl know if that was it.
THX
kelly
OH and hey FerrariJoe where are you from???
Look slike some trees fomr up north in the back ground picture of your car. Beautiful car i might add. |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Junior Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 135
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 7:22 pm: | |
Does the accumulator hold pressure when the car is hot or when the car is cold? I always thought when cold but I am thinking that it holds the pressure whent the car is hot? That could cause the hot start issue if it isn't holding pressure. Is this correct? |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 881
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 5:54 pm: | |
You have to find out which port you wish to tap into and select the appropriate fitting from your gauge set accessories. I do not know the exact names or part numbers of the exact fittings. I use a set from Snap-On which has a large selection of fittings except the ones you need. You have to purchase these seperately when you find out your needs. Like I said before, there are thousands of variations of this system and each one has a different way of hooking it up, as anyone else who does this kind of work can attest to. The books are the only way to go if you are serious. I am not a very good teacher, that is why I am a "DOOER". |
Richelson (Richelson)
Member
Username: Richelson
Post Number: 525
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 4:18 pm: | |
Ed, can you tell us which connectors we need for 308s? Will we need more than what come in the package with the gauges? |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 879
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 4:14 pm: | |
In order to pressure test the system first of all you have to determine the exact variation of the CIS system you have. This is what I have been trying to explain. It is different as to how you hook up the gauge by which variation your car has. This is why you need a book to determine your particular application and follow the instructions and hope you have enough adaptors to complete your hook up. I have seen hundreds of different fittings and connectors used on different cars and you never seem to have exactly what you need. I believe they do it on purpose just to make you buy more stuff. This same or similar injection system is used on VWs, Volvo, Mercedes, Porsche, Saab, Audi, Alfa Romeo, Renault, BMW, Fiat, Jaguar, Delorean, Lotus, Rolls Royce, Opel, Triumph, Peugeot, and even the POS Eagle used it. In other words, buy the book if you are serious about this system. |
F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member
Username: Ferrarijoe
Post Number: 77
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 3:27 pm: | |
Kelly,
Ed is without a doubt more experienced to tell you how to check your FI system. Nevertheless, a good novice start is to first get the Bosch FI tech book for $30.00 and the K-Jetronic test kit that is inexpensive at $60.00. You can buy it here:
http://www.bmpdesign.com/bmw/parts/catalog/tools_21.shtml
I am sure there are other places to get it also.
Joe
|
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 1869
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 11:03 am: | |
Richelson that's how to check the accumulator's vent line. When my car was having trouble I spent a lot of time talking with Nick about this stuff, I wrote down all the pressures, etc of the various fuel components somewhere at the time (who knows where now since they're at home and everytime I come back everything is moved). Edward is absolutely right when he says that it is definitely not the only answer to hot start problems, but on the 308s it is the most common which is why I would start there. |
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
Member
Username: 4re308
Post Number: 446
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 7:35 am: | |
Stu, that is great information, thanks for sharing that! I am going to check that out when my accumulator goes out. |
Kelly J. Vince (Tifosi1)
Junior Member
Username: Tifosi1
Post Number: 136
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 7:25 am: | |
Edward,
How do you pressure test your fuel system????? |
Richelson (Richelson)
Member
Username: Richelson
Post Number: 519
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 6:58 am: | |
How do you check the vent line? Is it just like Bret said? |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 876
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 6:00 am: | |
What you guys are finding out is that any component in the fuel system chain that fails will cause a loss of rest fuel pressure which is the pressure that the system holds when the engine is turned off. Just because someones accumulator fails does not mean it is the cause of everyones hot start problems. other components can cause the exact same symptoms and without proper pressure testing, you are just guessing. Fuel in the vent line of the accumulator is a sign of a defective unit however. |
Jerry H (Jerry)
Junior Member
Username: Jerry
Post Number: 88
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 5:00 am: | |
I would love the VW part #. |
stu cordova (Balataboy)
Junior Member
Username: Balataboy
Post Number: 200
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 12:25 am: | |
Kelly, I have the same warm start issue however replacing the accumulator didn't help me.
BTW - check out your local volkswagen parts store for the accumulator - they carry the exact part you need and it should be under 100 bucks. I can dig up the part number if you need it. Let me know. Good luck, -Stu
|
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 1860
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 9:48 pm: | |
Thanks Kelly, I try. Mine bit the bullet like a year ago, was a b_tch to start when it was warm outside and I had been running the car before. For gas to be in there the diaphragm has to be broken which allows the pressure to be released from the fuel system. All the flooring of the accelerator (leans it out) and turning the engine over a bit eventually build enough pressure to fire up.
AW's what I use for almost all my common parts, they're real good and Gino knows so many different Ferrari parts it's amazing. Oh, and they always have the best price. Good luck. |
Kelly J. Vince (Tifosi1)
Junior Member
Username: Tifosi1
Post Number: 135
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 9:36 pm: | |
You the man bret. |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 1855
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 9:04 pm: | |
Right track you are. Pull the hose off the back of it (when you take out the wheel well the one that is towards the back of the car, the hose comes down off the top of the gas tank and into the accumulator). If it has gas in it, it is capoot. I can't remember what I paid for mine and my records are at home.
Call AW Imported Auto, ask for Gino (1-800-392-6833) if you need one. |
Kelly J. Vince (Tifosi1)
Junior Member
Username: Tifosi1
Post Number: 134
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 8:38 pm: | |
I've been having a warm start problem. Say after filling up with gas, I always have to press on the gas to get it to start.
I've heard that if I remove the hose from the tire side of the accumulator and it has gas or drips gas, I would be on the right track.
Let me know if I'm going down the right path.
Also, i called trutlands today, they want $140.00. I thought these things were about $100.00.
Thanks for the help
Kelly |