| Author |
Message |
Adelina Vallese (Dina)
| | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 5:57 pm: | |
Yes, Herbert. I will be the first one in your shop to have my heater hoses replaced. Until then the fun starts tommorrow morning when I start pulling my GTB apart. Regards - Dina |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 4:38 pm: | |
Hey Doc, When you looked around the classroom and saw those nodding heads, do you think they might have been going to sleep because of all the B.S.? MAGOO |
Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
| | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 1:10 pm: | |
Herb, The problem is you are too smart and work too efficiently for Ferrari How is a dealer going to justify $7K+ for a major service (for changing belts and fluids) when you will be able to direct a mechanic to do it for 1/2 that ( a smart dealer would hire you, charge us customers more and pocket the difference) Besides, with your pramatism, you would ruin the Ferrari mystique! I say open your own shop up to Ferrari repair and I will be your first customer. |
Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 6:27 am: | |
Ferrari is advertising for Field Service Reps. I sent in a resume just for kicks. Keep in mind that I have 30 years experience as Certified Master Technician, General Motors University graduate, 6 years as Dealership Service Director and customer Relations with Fiat and General Motors, and 21 years as an Independent Business owner. I more than qualified in every area that the job requirement asked for. They answered me saying that I did not meet their requirements. What a blow to my ego to know that they hired someone who can't mix antifreeze. The guy that said the coolant won't mix is probably the one who designed the power windows on 308's. |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 6:10 pm: | |
Herbert, didn't mean to fire you up. I was only doing what they told me to do at a tech Q&A session. They way I see it, you two have forgotten more about this stuff then I will ever know. So anyway...
By the way, Thanks to Paul for looking up the details on the Ferrari fan switch. My aftermarket switch is only 3 degrees cooler (Ferrari stock is 183 vs the 180 switch I suggested) so not much of a difference, but if anyone ever needs to replace a faulty one why not with this for $14.00?
ALSO TO EVERYONE: TO ECHO PAUL, DO NOT GO TO VW AND BUY A STOCK SWITCH. THEY ARE SET TO BLOW AT 197, FERRARI'S STOCK IS 183! MY 180 SWITCH IS AN AFTERMARKET ITEM ONLY. NOT AVAILABLE AT A VW PARTS COUNTER!!! |
Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 4:41 pm: | |
If a Ferrari rep said that the water and coolant will not mix in the engine then he is full of ••••. I have been doing it for 30 freakin years and have never had a problem and if the water pump won't churn things up nothing will. BULL CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 2:14 pm: | |
Tommy,
The thermo fan switch that you recomend will not make a difference and if you buy one from VW it could damage your Ferrari.
The one you recommend (aftermarket is 180 degrees F) the standard Ferrari switch is 183 degrees(F)and 3 degrees is not worth it, the big problem is if you go to VW and buy the part, it is 197 degrees(F) and that could be damaging to the Ferrari.
I also recommend only distilled water and water wetter with no anti-freeze for a "summer mixture", this will allow maxium cooling effect.
Please understand that your post is not being attacked I am just trying to make sure no one ends up with a problem and I appreciate your direct e-mails in sourcing part #'s.
Regards,
Paul |
Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 10:37 am: | |
Thanks Dr.
I am right behind you on this cooling issue. I will be using Wetter Water as well I have a post earlier from a tech at Redline that talks about optimum cooling mix using wetter water. In your defense, I always made my mix prior to pouring it into the car, I don't think it makes one bit of difference since very exact measurements are not really required here but I try to be fastidious and by the way, I saw them marketing a premixed solution (50/50) at thelocal pep boys -- what a scam how lazy do they think a guy who changes his own coolant is going to be - although is is convenient for topping off - which is agood reason to keep the leftover from the original mix. I still think I an going to take the extensive extra effort and upgrade hoses and have the rad. boiled out in case it is blocked in any way - although I see no evidence of corrosion anywhere else. |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 9:20 am: | |
Hey Doc, No offense intended, it just seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to since anti freeze does mix with water. Best regards, MAGOO |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 7:20 am: | |
I was at the Annual meet in Atlanta in 99 and was asking the FNA tech rep about my temp problems. Among other things he said fluid will never mix uniformly throughout the system if you put one in at a time. There were collective nods around the room as he said this so since then I mix before I pour. Just do like I did and go to WalMart, get a 6 gal plastic jug, fill it up, shake it well and store the extra. |
Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 4:29 am: | |
You can get a more accurate mix if you do it before you install it, however either way will work. |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 9:43 pm: | |
Dr., Not to open up a can of worms here but I thought when you add water or Anti-Freeze to the expansion tank, as the water circulates it mixes throughout the system. Am I wrong Guys? |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 9:31 pm: | |
Sam-I am going back to 50/50 mix in the winter. This is just a Summer mix. The fan switch is from Automotive Performance Systems in Camarillo, California. Their # is (805)388-7171.
Ask for the 2 pole fan switch part # 8.124.22
They have the same switch in a 3 pole configuration so be specific. The price is $14.95. |
Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 12:06 pm: | |
Dr. what is the part number for that rad switch. also how did you jump the fans and are you concerned with the block freezing in winter or willyou add more anti-freeze in winter or rely on the heated garage? please let me know you temp readings when you get this all done. I am planning to follow your lead but I will likely first boil out the radiator, just in case it si blocked |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2001 - 10:50 pm: | |
Sounds like a great plan TC!, on my TR I just thru in 2 bottles of Water Wetter, I didn't bother to measure out the exact amount. I talked to the folks at Redline makers of WW, while they said there is no benefit in over WW'ing, you can't really use too much, I just didn't feel like putting in 1.5 bottle(s). I'll also let folks know what it does (if it's noticable). My cooling system also just been drained and has I believe close to a 60/40 mix as standard, altho not distilled.
-Ben |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2001 - 10:12 pm: | |
I have an 84 308 QV with the same hot running symptoms described here. I live in Alabama so summer days over 100 degrees is not unusual. I have owned the car for 4 years and the only time I am comfortable with my temp readings is in the winter. After reading the other suggestions listed here I have come up with a plan. (I will let everyone know how well it works in a few weeks).
First I went to WalMart and bought a 6 gal gas jug. I mixed 4 1/2 gal distilled water, 1 1/2 gal antifreeze and 1 bottle plus 12 capfulls of another bottle of Water Wetter. This mix is roughly 25% antifreeze. Always mix your water and antifreeze before use. If you try to add more water or antifreeze only to the overflow tank, it will never mix correctly in the system.
Next I ordered a lower temp fan switch from APS. This is the same one used aftermarket on watercooled VW's (I have driven Sciroccos for years) This triggers the fan at 180 instead of 197 on the VW's.
Finally I jumped the fan switches for both fans to operate instead of one.
So, my recipe is:
1. 25% antifreeze instead of 50/50 with water wetter
2. 180 degree fan switch
3. both fans on at 180 instead of one.
4. careful and complete system bleeding.
As I said, I'll drive it for a while and let everybody know. I live in the south, my car is black and the summer is coming. This should be interesting... |
Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 12:54 pm: | |
I heard and on other chats that Gate Green stripe is the best hose to use, anyone have any thoguhts on Purisol teflon used for racing and sold by truechoice, or stainless braid aircraft style line (I guess overkill) |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2001 - 1:30 am: | |
Herbert, I was not being sarchastic. You very well know what I meant by "vintage". I don't know the exact time-line, but there was a point when cars used only water for cooling. I just used the phrase "vintage" because I'm sure it was more than 40 years ago. And please don't find offence in that comment that I just made that anything 40 yrs old is vintage. I should point out in that first comment I made: "...From my little knowledge of auto mechanics...". That should've clearly told you how much I knew about this subject.
I knew Olds had the first production line, but can you tell me who built the first unibody (ie: no separate ladder-frame chassis)? I'll give you a hint... its Italian. |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2001 - 9:01 am: | |
In the old days when I lived up north people would winterize (close up) their country homes before heading back to the city.
To do so they would add antifreeze to their hot water heating systems (Radiators or baseboard)so they would not freeze up over the winter. Any plumber will tell that once you do this you automaticly will loose at least 25% of the heat transfer in the system.
For those of you who live up north you should have a winter cooling mixture and a summer mixture, it may be a hassle but you will enjoy summer driving more in a cooler running car.
PS. Summer mixture is the one Redline recomends in Earlier post and use the water wetter. Winter is the normal 50/50 mixture. |
Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2001 - 5:08 am: | |
Yes, I remember when I used to go up and watch Henry build those Model T cars and I suggested he use a bunch of people in a line to put the things together faster. Hey! Im not that old, I just do this for a living and could kick ass if I could be on "Millionare" and had automotive questions. And actually Olds invented the assembly line. Bet most people didn't know that. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2001 - 1:52 am: | |
There you go, if I were more old-fasioned, I would've known that, since vintage cars only used water for the cooling system. Learn something everyday. |
Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 9:51 pm: | |
Actually pure water is the best for heat transfer. Anti freeze raises the boiling point and provides freezing protection but is not as efficient as pure water for heat transfer. The radiator cap pressure adds three degrees of additional boiling point temperature for every pound of pressure that it holds. This is the reason that you do not use pure antifreeze for your cooling system except in maybe an extreme cold area where boil over would not be a worry versus freezing. Antifreeze does not transfer heat well. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 6:53 pm: | |
Sam, from the little knowledge of auto maintenance, all I know about antifreeze is that when you stray into extreme mixture ratios, you'll loose the ultimate effectiveness of the coolant. 50/50, 60/40, 40/60, etc... are all normal ratios that provide the best cooling. Unless this Water Wetter stuff does the work that the missing 35% of antifreeze wouldn't do, I'm not sure. As I've said elsewhere in this forum about engine additives, I don't use them. I've had no problems whatsoever with 50/50 distilled water and antifreeze (then again I live in a mild climate). No problems again when I used to live back in Montreal (not with the Ferrari, but with other cars). Maybe I'm old-fashioned.
As far as I know, right up to the 328, the sycrhos are Porsche, can anyone correct me about this? |
Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
| | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 1:07 pm: | |
Hi, What do you think of RedLine's tech reccomendation for 15% antifreeze in the? Ferrari says 50% Is 15% adequate for corrosion and freezing protection in the NorthEast? Do we QV guys have "Porsche style synchros?" |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 6:31 pm: | |
Sorry Sam, I misunderstood your question. Yes the diff. shares the oil with the transmission so you would need LSD compatible oil (or trans oil with the stuff already in it). Those are Porsche synchronisers. Ignore my previous comment. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 6:27 pm: | |
Woah Sam, hold on there. There are no sharing of oils in the gearbox, engine oil is separated by a wall and the stick-shift imput shaft passes through o-rings and seals (through that wall, keeping the oils separate). Stick with a 20W50 (or any other ..W50 oil)engine oil and 75W90 LSD compatible trans oil. |
Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 12:23 pm: | |
HI, thanks all...fo info purposes I am copying a e-mail exchange I had with the helpfull tech people at RedLine, makers of Wetter Water and the other Synthetic oils mentioned in some chats here...
===============================================
>Dear Tech,
>
>Three Questions;
>Q1) COOLING, I live in New York and car is exposed to below freezing,
>Ferrari recommends 50/50 mix, yet car runs very, very hot (does not boil
>over) (250!) in summer traffic, - what % Wetter Water do you recommend
>adding (i.e. % glyco/%water/%Wetter Water.
A1)The WaterWetter concentration is about 3%, one 12 ounce bottle will treat a
cooling system from 12 to 20 quarts.
For the best heat transfer and temperature reduction, I would recommend
less than 50% antifreeze, in an air conditioned system we recommend 15%
antifreeze the remainder distilled water and WaterWetter. Does the air
conditioner blow through the heater core?
>
>Q2) GEARBOX, I would like to use synthetic oil in the gearbox but onthe
>308, the Trans shares the oil with the gearbox, so I guess Iwould need
>litd slip oil as well, what product do you have that does this.
A2)Typically in the Ferrari transaxles we recommend the 75W90, if your
transaxle uses the Porsche style synchros, then I would recommend the
75W90NS.
>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 10:09 pm: | |
308 QV: both fans come on when temp switch closes.
When AC is on: one fan remains on as long as AC is on, the other continues to turn on and off with temp switch. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 7:29 pm: | |
Sam, it depends where you have pinhole leaks. More than likely along the seams. I repainted my tank, but I just painted over the old paint, so I never took it down to bare metal. I think its made out of brass sheet. Seams would be soldered. Not easy to repair one area, without damaging other areas from the brazing heat.
To get two, continuously running rad fans (on a 308), disconnect the thermo switch on the bottom of the rad and jump the two connections with a small electrical wire with matching connections on it. |
Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 1:39 pm: | |
Craig,
According to my QV manual, I think you are correct, if there has been a previous discussion on how to properly wire both fans (I guess I could simply jump them although a relay would be nice)I would rather not add additional fans as per Kurt. I will get a new cap, and the exp. tank checked out. Does any one know if it is worth it to repair a expansion tank (possible pin hole leaks?) what are new ones costing? availablility? Used? I guess I can call rutlands...any aftermarket or non ferrari thermo compatiblity?
thanks to all for their help
Hey did anyone see MSN.com featuring the 308 as a a used car choice! ck it out at.. http://carpoint.msn.com/jump/news/jgnews_4019917_6.asp |
Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 6:44 am: | |
Didn't we discuss the differences between the 308 fan circuit and the 328 fan circuit before? It seems to me that we determined the 308 circuit uses two fans on the main radiator but one only comes on with the A/C (Which means you're running on a single cooling fan most of the time). The 328 uses two fans on the main radiator and both come on together(apparently a necessary cooling improvement). It seems to me that the wiring could be changed easily for both fans to come on together (without having the A/C on)for improved cooling. |
308i80 (Lamont)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 2:50 am: | |
Sam, e-bay under "dc fans" search has small 12v fans. I plan to experiment on trying to cool the water and or oil radiator down. If the amp drain from the fans are reasonable. |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 - 9:23 pm: | |
CORRECTED MESSAGE (fuse #'s and device)
Was out today in Ferrari and it began to overheat so I got it home pronto and here is what I found:
Neither fan would kick in and both fuses were good as was thermo switch.
In the right fuse holder Ferrari has fused the last 3 fuses (16,17,18) together for the positive feed (top side on back of holder) and the postive feed comes in on "16" (12 or 10 gauge red wire on top of fuse 16)which is the clock, horn, cig lighter Etc.
Well the rivet that connects the brass fuse plate failed to make a good connection and no power was getting to fuses 17 & 18 (fan motors).
QUICK FAIL SAFE FIX: Move red wire from over Fuse "16" to over Fuse "17", then if the rivet fails at least one of the Fans will always have power and the worst thing would be your clock stoped.
Better no clock then fried engine. |
Kurt Kjelgaard (Kurtk328)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 - 12:54 pm: | |
Sam,
it definitely sounds as if you have a problem somewhere in the cooling system.
What you are describing does not sound normal at all.
I have never heard of an expansion tank deforming other than when hit with something hard.
Your expansion tank cap should vent air or water in case of overpressure. The 6 cm of space above the water level is only to prevent water venting in normal conditions. If you fill up the expansion tank when the engine is cool and then go for a drive with normal temperatures, you'll find that the system has vented water about down to the 6 cm. The 6 cm are also used to have a "measuring stick" when checking the water level.
Your plan sounds good - I think your thermostat is the culprit. You should definitely have it checked before you do anything dramatic such as modifying the existing setup. Also have the cap checked.
I have a 328 and knowing there are differences between that and and your 308QV I can tell you, that I have never had any problems at all in the south of France, where I live. Temps around 35C (90F) are quite common in the summertime with occasional increases to 40 (100) or more.
And the traffic jams at the Riviera can be lengthy affairs!
I don't use any water wetters or any other additives to water, oil or fuel.
Hope you will solve the problem - keep us informed.
brgds Kurt |
Erik Jonsson (Gamester)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 - 4:06 am: | |
Another great temp decreaser is: add ER (Energy Release) to your coolant. I know it is for the engine oil, but it does the same as water wetter. I use this with success in my racecar. Added benefit is lube for the pump. |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2001 - 8:32 pm: | |
I have been a redline user for years and not only do I use water wetter (2 bottles) I also use their gearbox oil, engine oil and fuel additive in every tankful, nothing but the BEST! 67,000 miles and drives like it's brand new. |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
| | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2001 - 1:15 pm: | |
Ok I don't have a 308 but I do have a suggestion. I DO NOT believe in snake oil remedies (read slick 50 etc.), but I do believe in Red Line Racing Products. They make a coolant additive that will lower your temps called "Water Wetter"
I have used thier products all the time and love them.
the tech info on water wetter can be found here:
http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/wwti.htm
the main site is: www.redlineoil.com
If you can use less antifreeze (if you don't live in a cold weather climate) and more water say 65% water %35 coolant and WW you WILL notice a difference. Worth a try, when you do a normal drain and refill of the cooling system.
-Ben |
Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
| | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2001 - 11:01 am: | |
Thanks Paul, It is getting hot here in the East and Summer traffic really stresses the cooling system on all 308's. MY 2V was impossible to keep cool in FLA traffic. My QV has at least a fighting chance if it is not too long and I use the heaters for aux cooling in a pinch. I was oout Sunday as well and I found that the preassure got so great that the Expansion tank has become deformed! Be sure always to leave at least 6CM of the tank empty when engine is cool, it is called an expansion tank for a reason!!! I am thinking of installing small aux. fans in the front corners of the rad (althoguh I worry about overloading the elec. system) to protact against primary fan failure and to add airflow over the radiator while the car is motionless. Another alternative is to get the aluminum aftermarket radiatior from Italian auto (i think) pricey but promises lower weight and increased cooling efficiency. My plan is to first to a complete flush and replace thermo and hoses and get a new expansion tank . Don't get me wrong, I never boil over (or rather the cooling system doesn't!) but I get streessed seeingthe temp needle go to 250 sitting in traffic. Any other thoughts out there |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2001 - 2:22 pm: | |
Was out today in Ferrari and it began to overheat so I got it home pronto and here is what I found:
Neither fan would kick in and both fuses were good as was thermo switch.
In the right fuse holder Ferrari has fused the last 3 fuses (G,H,I) together for the postive feed (top side on back of holder) and the postive feed comes in on "G" (12 or 10 gauge red wire on top of fuse G)which is the Headlight door motors.
Well the rivet that connects the brass fuse plate failed to make a good connection and no power was getting to fuses H & I (fan motors).
QUICK FAIL SAFE FIX: Move red wire from over Fuse "G" to over Fuse "H", then if the rivet fails at least one of the Fans will always have power and the worst thing would be your headlight doors would not come up.
Better no headlight doors then fried engine. |
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