| Author |
Message |
Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 121
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 12:49 am: | |
The BP6 should stay clean since that's a pretty hot plug by Ferrari standards (I believe). I use several steps colder 9 or 8 sometimes and I have a few bad valve stem seals and they still stay clean. I am running the MSD with points and it is fine, but like I said previously I noticed no difference from stock marelli coil and dinoplex to coil/points only to msd with new msd coil (Ben is probably right that I will notice difference when I open plug gap).
Are the plugs black wet fouled like oil or black dry fouled like carbon or just wet like fuel? |
Francesco Scotto di Santolo (Francesco)
New member
Username: Francesco
Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 7:46 pm: | |
Dave
1 No
2 everyday, Traffic to hard
3 BP6ES
4 yes
5 yes Tech told me OK not great
6 54K Tech also told me maybe not ++
7 Sunoco 94
8 African or European?
My problem could very well be oil fouling
Steve, yes did try the EVX plug got 2000 mls instead of 1000mls, not woth the extra $35,I think
Thank you
Francesco |
David Jones (Dave)
Junior Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 184
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 6:15 pm: | |
Francesco,
are you sure that your ignition system is the root of your plugs fouling?
How do you drive your 308, and how often?
Which heat range plugs are you using?
Stock jets in your carbs?
Done a leakdown to check your rings?
What kind of shape are your valve guides and valve seals in?
How many miles on your engine?
What grade fuel do you use?
What's the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
Honestly, IMHO I don't think adding 1, 2, or 20 for that matter MSD units to your stock points setup 308 will cure your plug fouling... |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 873
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 5:59 pm: | |
Francesco -- What spark plugs are you running? The stock 308GTB/S plug recommendations are rather cold so stepping up one heat range for US driving is not uncommon -- for ~$50 you could try a set of NGK BPR6EVX from http://www.clubplug.net/retail_vx_ngk.html
The benefit of going with a MSD system using points (compared to the conventional points set-up) is that the amount of current flowing thru the point contacts is greatly reduced (which extends the life of the point contacts) while the amount of current delivered to the coil primary (by the MSD unit) is increased. Though my choice (with priority on moderate cost and minimum external modifications) would be the Pertronix (hall-effect) system (http://www.pertronix.com/ignition/ignitor/index.htm) that mounts completely inside the distributor (and I�d try to go with 2 units out of phase in one distributor which improves synchronization � i.e., the second distributor is only used to distribute the spark) -- JMOs.
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Francesco Scotto di Santolo (Francesco)
New member
Username: Francesco
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 5:14 pm: | |
OK guys, but I think I'm still confused. Has anyone tried the points triggered msd ignition?
I'm not experiencing any backfiring or difficult starting, just my plugs fouling. How much easier can the starting get, anyway? I don't mind purchasing and running 2 systems. Will I get benefits from the points triggered msd?
Thanks
Francesco
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Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
New member
Username: Brainsboy
Post Number: 30
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 4:23 pm: | |
I would guess if they both get dirty your gonna have problems. Metal particals will certainly cause magnetic to mis-fire as well as dirt could make the unilite mis-fire. |
Horsefly (Arlie)
Junior Member
Username: Arlie
Post Number: 89
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 3:33 pm: | |
Speaking of sensors, I read somewhere that the optical sensors like the Mallory Unilite are not quite as good as the Hall effect magnetic sensors. The LEDs in the Unilite sensors CAN be affected by dust and oily crud which can work its way inside the distributor. The magnetic sensors are unaffected by dust.
Agreed, the point type systems can be kept running easier in an emergency. But millions of GM cars between 1975 and 1980 used the HEI ignition system, which used a non-computerized electronic ignition module inside the distributor which is only about 3 inches long. You can easily carry a spare in your glove compartment, which I have done, and it helped my get going one time when I thought my module was going out. (Turns out it was another problem, but I was able to change it quickly with a screwdriver as easily as a set of points.) Mallory made a small electronic conversion kit to change over a point distributor to electronic. Somewhere I have one new in the box. It was nothing fancy like the MSD box, it just eliminated the points with a magnetic pick-up. I think Stinger Ignition made such a kit also. |
Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 117
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 3:11 pm: | |
Thanks Ben. I suppose I will try opening the plug gap. I didn't do it because I had been told somewhere (MSD?) that on higher compression engines (I'm 10.4:1) that you shouldn't do so. What I've heard is that since a highly compressed gas presents a higher resistance to the spark, a smaller spark gap is employed with high compression ratios. Is this inaccurate or is 10.4:1 simply not high enough compression to worry about it? I'm running fairly cold NGK plugs, the coldest I've been able to keep clean considering I drive the car around town a lot at lowish rpms. I use NGK and really should be running the BP10ES but I'm running the one step hotter 9s.
Not to discount anything said here regarding points being ancient and faulty technology, but there is one advantage points systems have over optical sensors: If any part of the electronic ignition system fails, I can be back on the road running on coil and points within minutes. This is a big advantage on a road-trip car that would present you with huge towing bills otherwise! In stock trim my car had a balast resistor mounted on the coil bracket so that when one flipped the switch on the Dinoplex to run in Emergeny mode (coil/points only) it would run through the ballast and therefore not wear the points out quickly. I retained this ballast on the bracket and can wire through it should I ever need to drive the car on coil and points. I believe the later 246 engines came with dual coils and one just needs to switch the wire from one coil to the next to regain igntion should the dinoplex die. One should just take the distributor off and have it measured and points adjusted on one of the old Sun distributor machines as part of regular basis (points must be exactly 180 degrees from each other with the dual point 3-lobe distributor used on the V6). Takes 5 min to remove distributor and maybe 10 minutes for the guy at the shop to get it checked/adjusted on the machine (it's been 8k miles since I've done it so it's probably getting to be time...).
Sure, the modern MSD units and the optical sensors are supposed to last forever but...
-Rich
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Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
New member
Username: Brainsboy
Post Number: 28
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 11:34 am: | |
MSD says that using there 6AL or 6A box, you should add .005" to the plug gap then keep opening until the best performance is noticed. They recommend if you car has or under 11:1 compression that usualy .050 to .060 gap will be best. Since your using stock coils, I would just add .005" to your gap. I like Terry's idea best, do all the modes for your enjoyment, then change it back to original when you go to sell it. |
Paul (Pcelenta)
New member
Username: Pcelenta
Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 10:23 am: | |
what is the general consensus on plug gap with the conversion? how much more do you open and do you have to drop the heat range..I have a dual crane/Mallory system on my 78 gts with stock coils and I haven't opened up the gap wider...It sounds like I should be opening the gap. using the BP6Es Ngks |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 157
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 10:10 am: | |
Keep this in mind: Dual distributors vs single distributor is not necessarily an originality issue. Ferrari did the cars both ways. The Euro cars had only a single distributor...
If you going to have a showcar and trailer it to events while driving it very rarely, then keeping 100% as delivered by the dealer is paramount.
If you going to use it as a driver... then why not make it drive the best it possibly can? Keep all of the original parts in a box, convert it to drive great and if you go to sell the car put it back to stock. Then you could probably sell the electronic converstion on Ebay and come out better!
I also agree that keeping the points based system and trying to fix your plug fouling with an MSD, Crane or other system is an effort to "cover up" the root of the problem. For me anyhow... how well the car drives is more important that the engine bay appearing 100% original. After all, how many people looking at the engine would ever know it was not original? (I'm also not about to pay $400 for ignition tune up parts... thus converstion baby!! ) |
stacy o'blenes (Stacy)
New member
Username: Stacy
Post Number: 50
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 7:37 am: | |
Francesco,
If you are concerned about original appearance why don't you get a crane system. You mount the trigger in the original distributor and you can hide the small ignition boxes out of sight. The xr700 is inexpensive and easy to install in the 308.
Is your plug fouling a new problem or one that you have had all along?
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Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
New member
Username: Brainsboy
Post Number: 27
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 7:23 am: | |
Francesco, what everyone is trying to say is that you need to stop thinking about points, if you want a daily driver. Your trying to fix a problem without changing the problem part. MSD is not going to help you if your points are already the cause of the problem. Electronic ignition with out MSD, is going to help you more then, your points with two MSD boxes, and the cost is about the same price. I would have to agree with Arlie, your really just trying to cover up an already existing problem. What is the reason you dont want to change to electronic ignition? |
Francesco Scotto di Santolo (Francesco)
New member
Username: Francesco
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 11:24 pm: | |
William
What you did with your Daytona sounds like what I'm interested in. Was everything else stock? e.g. distributors, points, coils, wires etc? Were you experiencing plug fouling previous to the installation of the msd? Any downsides?
Thank you in advance
regards, Francesco |
Horsefly (Arlie)
Junior Member
Username: Arlie
Post Number: 87
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 10:26 pm: | |
As I understand the MSD ignition, it's name describes its function, multiple spark discharge. Instead of one spark per point opening and coil field collapse, the electronic module creates several sparks, multiplying the chances of the air-fuel mixture igniting. More air-fuel mixture ignition means less chance of spark plug fouling, which would probably be an improvement in any type of spark plug ignition system, whether it's in a Ferrari or not. But using a modern electronic system like an MSD with an "ancient" point distributor is kind of like spraying new paint on your Ferrari without even washing the car first. Sort of counter productive, in my opinion. |
William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member
Username: Billb
Post Number: 66
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 10:24 pm: | |
Here's another perspective, from first-hand experience. I installed two MSD6A units on a USA Daytona, using the original points set-up. These cars use a six-lobed cam in each distributor, as the second set of points were only for retarded timing at low RPM for emissions, and thus were eliminated. This worked great, and the plug gaps were opened to .035", with little fouling. However, the Euro car uses a true dual-point distributor and three-lobed cams. Trying the same set-up on this distributor will not work, as the MSD doesn't know which points to trigger from (ask me how I know), this in spite of the "technical advice" I got from MSD when I called to inquire about the system. It wound up running on only three cylinders per bank. |
Francesco Scotto di Santolo (Francesco)
New member
Username: Francesco
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 9:38 pm: | |
My original question still stands then. Will two MSD ignition systems triggered by original points (single not dual) with dual distributors and stock coils give me better drivability and less plug fouling?
Thanks
Regards,Francesco
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Gordon Hollingsworth (Gordonh)
New member
Username: Gordonh
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 8:56 pm: | |
The most important advantage of changing from dual distributors to a single one is to eliminate the problem of erratic timing between the cylinder banks as the advance mechanisms of each distributor wear differently. |
David Jones (Dave)
Junior Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 183
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 6:56 pm: | |
I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents worth...
Let me say first, if you are into original, or scoring big at shows, Do Not change your 308 from it's original points setup!
I have a 77 308GTB that was stock when I bought it... and have since changed it to an electronic ignition.
The reason?
I drive the •••• out of this 308...
Properly done, a conversion to an electronic ignition system will not only save you money.
It will make your 308 a more user friendly car.
There are a number of conversions out there,
from Ben's wonderfully crafted Dist. to the direct fire systems, to the Norwood conversion, which I have on my car, which uses one of the stock Dist. bases.
If you want your early 308 to run like a in sync 8cyl. instead of 2 4cyl. fighting each other when the points start to drift, and if you like me drive the pajesus of of your 308, then I highly recommend changing from points to electronic.
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Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
New member
Username: Brainsboy
Post Number: 26
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 4:09 pm: | |
I can understand wanting to keep the stock looks. As far as the original distributor, High voltage coils are going to pull more power through the points making the contacts wear faster. This is ok if you drive your car 2 times a year, but fracescos wants a daily driver. An electronic ignition is great for the person who is tired of setting points, tired of the backfires and popping, tired of the power loss. You have to decied if keeping the orginal looks is worth the hassel. Also you could just keep your old ignition system, you can always but it back on when you sell it. There are other advantages to changing the distributor. The caps and rotors only cost 10$ each. For the 1980-1984 my distributor offers adjustable timming, as you know the 1980+ timming were set for emissions not performance. The point of my distributor is to let people enjoy there ferrari to its full capability with out having to spend a 1000$. It offers a way for the average man, to improve, and do tune ups at a reasonable price.
Ben |
Drew Altemara (Drewa)
New member
Username: Drewa
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 3:15 pm: | |
Ben I respect your opinion but have a question.
IS there any benefit doing what Francesco suggests? Upgrade to the MSD and higher output coil, increase spark plug gap and keep the stock distributor. I realize that your distributor if far superior to the original. However a number of us want to keep the system looking as original as possible, add some reliability and keep the plugs from fouling with a stronger spark. I assume the stock distributor could handle the MSD and higher output coil. So wouldn't this give a better spark? |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 216
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 3:04 pm: | |
Francesco,
I've got an Euro QV w/twin distributors. As long as my original EGI units hold up I plan to stay w/them. If/when they fail, I'll look at alternatives. In order of preference:
1) All electronic: Coil/cylinder Lots of options out there.
2) Your preference: 2 EGI units & coils w/two distributors. The QV already has magnetic pickups. The 4 cyl. distributors have lots of room between contacts, so can handle a lot more voltage than the stock coils put out. Also, they're rock solid.
Seriously consider retrofitting magnetic or optical pickups instead of points for all the reasons mentioned below. |
Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
New member
Username: Brainsboy
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 2:36 pm: | |
Well there are a few problems with what you want to do. so let me explain. First why do you want to keep points? Points wear out, they need to be adjusted, or replaced. If you really want a daily driver then you need to go to electronic ignition. Im not just trying to sell my distributors but any other electronic system would be fine too. Second, you want MSD. MSD works on the basis of garbage in then garbage out. This means MSD fires based on what your points tell them. If you have problems with points now, MSD is going to make it worse. You said you added new coils with no performance increase, thats probably true. If I feed you only steak for 1 year would you become very strong. maybe, maybe not. but if I feed you steroids,steak, vitamins, milk, and made you work out every day, you will become stonger no doubt. Your ignition is the same way. Just adding MSD is not going to help, just adding coils are not going to help. Changing it all together will. Keep in mind for the price of two MSD boxes that you want you could buy my Distributor. My distributor uses a laser like trigger system, it never wears out, never needs to be adjusted, doesnt float, doesnt need to be replaced, its all completely digital. This is the way to go for a daily driver. With electronic ignition, MSD, 8.8wires, and a High voltage coil you now have the ultimate ignition system. Hope this information helps you out.
Ben |
Francesco Scotto di Santolo (Francesco)
New member
Username: Francesco
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 12:35 pm: | |
Ben,
I would like to use the stock dist. and use 2 msd units. I would also prefer the points to trigger the ignition and possibly the stock coils although I now have accell 42K volt coils with no difference. I would like to get rid of my plug fouling problem and make the more drivable, its my daily driver.
regards |
Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
New member
Username: Brainsboy
Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 11:24 am: | |
Richard, I find this interesting you didnt notice any difference. Were you still using the points to trigger the MSD unit? Did you buy the MSD new? All the distributors I have sold so far, the people e-mailed me back saying the power increase, or performance is just unbelievable now. Also I noticed you didnt open the gap on your plugs. This is probably why you didnt notice any power increase. Its very important to open to at least .045 to .050 with the set up you have. The gap on a plug is set by the amount of power your ignition is running not the compression ratio. The more power your ignition has the more gap you need to have. The only reason I could figure you didnt run the gap would be because of the combustion temp being to high, which is an easy fix with running colder plugs. Which again is recommended anyhow with higher compression motors. Try running a plug 2 steps colder then opening your gap to .045
As far as a 246 distributor I would be interested in giving it a try. I started with the GTSI308 because thats what I have, then one guy sent me one for the older points 308's, so now I do these. If you can send me one for the 246, Im sure I could make one for it too.
Ben |
Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 116
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 10:15 am: | |
When the Dinoplex unit on my dino 246 engine died last year I drove the car on coil and points only for a while and then replaced with MSD 6A (like 6AL but no rev limiter, cost about $130) and MSD blaster 2 coil ($30-40). To tell the truth, I noticed no difference in the way the car performed with either of these three ignition systems. I didn't test on the dyno but the old butt dyno showed no difference (other than the electronic obviously being preferable since points will last longer). Regardless, the advantage of the MSD is that it is commonly available should it ever fail (I bought mine at Kragen even), the tach runs off it correctly, and when used with their coils you can possibly enlarge your spark plug gap to take advantage of the hotter spark. I didn't because I have 10.4 to 1 pistons but on a lower compression car I would have. It can also be triggered by non-points systems should you wish to get rid of the points. Hmm...I wonder if Ben would be interested in making 246 distributors too? I think I could round up half a dozen customers for 246 distributors. |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 155
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 8:32 am: | |
I am going to be installing a MSD6AL onto my '77 GTB this week. I am getting a custom built distributor from Ben Millermon and installing it with the MSD. This will get rid of the points, do away with dual distributors, and allow a much hotter coil plus use of the MSD. It is based around a Mallory unilite pickup. Search the archives on 308 distributor, you will find a thread with details and photos. There are couple of threads on this. Its supposed to be "the ticket". I will be posting results after installing mine.
unless you convert to a single distributor, I believe you would need 2 MSD units. They are about $175 each. Im not sure installing one while staying with the stock coils and points distributors will make a ton of sense. |
Francesco Scotto di Santolo (Francesco)
New member
Username: Francesco
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 12:08 am: | |
I have a 77 308 and am interested in an msd ignition system. does anyone know the costs and results from such a system?
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