| Author | Message | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2002 |
The 355 is an ABS equipped car as far as I know. It shouldnt be actually locking any wheel for more than a split second. On rare occasions, some cars - mid engine types, will require almost as much rear brake as front to stay balanced. The 355 is one of them. Because the rear is still proportioned down in pressure compared to front, the brake balance is still be biased to the front. The F50 system shown here will increase the all around ability of the car without upsetting the balance. | |||
| Robert Ziino (F355bob)
New member Username: F355bob Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2002 |
What is on the rear of the yellow F355? The stock calipers. I put F40 fronts on my F355 with 255/35 tires. I think the stock tire was not enough tire for the huge calipers and they were easy to lock up I kept the rear stock and the braking is fantastic. I can't imagine what F50 brakes would be like. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2002 |
Take a look at this color matched front and rear system for the 355. The system uses a lightweight two-piece rotor assembly at 332mm with a 4 piston F50 spec caliper. Looks good and has incredible stopping power.  | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2002 |
Peter: What is a "willow" caliper? Do you mean Wilwood? Billy bob: 90% of what systems? The 348 and 355 use the same uprights. The upright casting changed little if any. For this reason the braking system geometries and specs are the same. I do not know what other systems you are asking about. | |||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
New member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2002 |
Eric, Are the 348-355 Brembo "big brake" complete systems so close that 90% or more of the systems are interchangeable 348 to 355? Thanks | |||
| Peter B. (Gts308qv)
Junior Member Username: Gts308qv Post Number: 231 Registered: 5-2001 |
For the handbrake "Willow" make small trailer calipers that adapt to the existing cables. Not Brembo, but very effective and cheap for a rear caliper upgrade without handbrake mechanism. | |||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 357 Registered: 1-2002 |
Many thanks, Eric! | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dave, We have a four wheel system for the E36 M3. It cannot be used with OE wheels however. I have wheel suggestions and system crossections for wheel fittiment. The front is a 14" system and the rear is 13". Both are 4 piston calipers. the parking brake is retained in the rear. The 550 should also be using the Ferodo 1000 pad. If not, then it is a good pad for your use outline. The next step up is the Ferodo DS2500, which will perform better, but may be noisy.    | |||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 355 Registered: 1-2002 |
Also, what pads would you recommend to replace the OEM ones on my 2000 550 Maranello? Would the Ferodo 1000 pads now OEM on the 575M Maranello be a nice upgrade for street & occasional track use? Thanks~ | |||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 354 Registered: 1-2002 |
Any mods required to fit one of your systems on all 4 wheels to a 1997 BMW M3 coupe with OEM 17" Contour II wheels? (sari for the non-Ferrari content, folks, but I gotsta know!) Thanks, Eric. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2002 |
There have to be more questions out there. Ask away. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2002 |
I thought I would drop a couple pictures of the F40 system we did For Chris Parr recently. Chris drives his car hard as often as possible on track (halleluja). Thanks to Chris for allowing us to prototype with his car. This system uses F50 spec calipers with upgraded titanium pistons for better heat rejection. The discs are 14" slotted units all around, and the bells are a new design which have racing float and centering springs for quiet use. The system is available from brembo and it's dealers worldwide now. There are also systems for the testarossa, 512TR, and 348-355 available for anyone else who drives seriously.   | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2002 |
John, read back 4 posts. Bill, drag racing line locks are innapropriate because they use a solenoid that draws amperage when it is activated. They are designed to be on for a short time only. Rally racing uses a second master cylinder attached to the handbrake. This MC is plumbed directly to the rear brakes only. generally the handbrake is fly-off, or non ratcheting. This could be modified to ratchet. | |||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 329 Registered: 5-2001 |
Eric, What are line locks, as used in drag racing? Could something like this provide parking brake functionality? You technical input is much appreciated. | |||
| John Bicsak (Funshipone)
Junior Member Username: Funshipone Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2002 |
Eric I have 16' wheels on my QV does that mean it will work. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2002 |
Bill, The 308 series rear could be upgraded in a similar way as we have the front. The condition is only that the parking brake will be lost. To replace the parking brake with a remote unit is cost prohibitive. Brembo is not interested in going through the design and manufacture only to find that it does not sell due to the high cost and lost P brake. Consider that a system for the rear including remote mount P brake would cost upwards of $4000, plus the front at $2500. At this time I recommend going with a very high friction racing pad on a fresh disc. A pad like the Ferodo DS2500 or DS3000. Adding cooling would help, but I do not know where you could draw air from. The other modifications you speak of are possible, but in making such modifications to the caliper, the risk factor is pretty high. Billy Bob, the car belongs to Tillack & Co. This is how it looked displayed at the Concorso Italiano. They did some job of polishing every inch of it. | |||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
New member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2002 |
Eric, You guys got some clean ass cars! My F cars are drivers and they are dirty even after they are washed compared to your pics. I don't think my car ever loked that clean. Same with the posters interior of his 348 under the thread about sticky 348 interiors...amazing. | |||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 324 Registered: 5-2001 |
Eric, How does one increase the capacity of the rear brakes on the 308? 1. Provide ducted cooling? 2. Use a different pad material? 3. Use a 911 brake like is used on the Porsche 914-6? Is it possible to fit some kind of manual, hydraulic pump, to provide the emergency brake function? 4. Bore the caliper to use a slightly larger diameter piston? 5. Fit a larger diameter disk and make modifications to enable its use? Any other possibilities? | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2002 |
John: The system will work in a 16" wheel. I do not know if it will work in the QV wheel. the issue is spoke clearance. The 4 piston caliper is wider than the stock caliper. We will have dimensions and recomendations available for wheels soon. the car shown uses a 17" Speedline wheel. John Biscak: In normal driving the system will produce more deceleration for the same pedal effort. Paul: No, the front system is specific. the rear has completely different dimensions. The caliper has far too much piston area for use on the rear. We do not have a caliper small enough for use on the rear. | |||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 377 Registered: 3-2001 |
Will the front system work on the rear if I wanted to for go the parking brake? | |||
| John Bicsak (Funshipone)
Junior Member Username: Funshipone Post Number: 104 Registered: 1-2002 |
Hello Eric I have a 1984 308 GTS QV will their be a noticeable difference for normal city and highway driving.Thank you for your input. | |||
| JPM (John_308qv)
Junior Member Username: John_308qv Post Number: 58 Registered: 4-2001 |
Eric, The brakes look great! Love the red calipers & drilled rotors. Does the system fit with the standard 16� wheels or are larger wheels required? John | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2002 |
I am including a picture of the Brembo system for the 308 front. The caliper is an aluminum 4 piston. Brake line is braided stainless steel. The disc is 313mm (12.3") x 28 mm. The disc is drilled and cad plated. It is a two piece system with an aluminum bell section to save weight. The system is roughly $2400. Get in touch and I can recommend an installer-retailer.  | |||
| JPM (John_308qv)
Junior Member Username: John_308qv Post Number: 55 Registered: 4-2001 |
Eric, thanks for the info. John | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2002 |
John, A valid question. A mid or rear engine car does a proportionally higher amount of rear axle braking, but the majority of braking force is always from the front axle. Lets do the math: The 308 is about 3200 lb (being kind), The CG is about 18" above ground, (being kind again), the weight on the front axle statically is 1344 lb, rear is 1856. The front axle weight under 1 g deceleration is 1941 lb. rear is 1259. Weight is pivoted around the CG, which acts as a sort of lever arm. The lower the CG, the less weight is transferred. you can see that at 1 g braking, the rear weighs much less than the front. As for the 308 specifically, there are other considerations. We would like to make a slight upgrade to the rear. but we are limited by the fact that we would lose the parking brake. Adding a supplemental parking brake would be cost and modification level prohibitive. So there it is. We do not sell upgrade systems that are not valid. The amount of 308 sales will barely justify the cost of developing it, so this is not some profit scheme. We are meeting a demand we have heard from 308 owners who are tired of fading out the stock brake system at track events. | |||
| JPM (John_308qv)
Junior Member Username: John_308qv Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2001 |
Eric, Thanks for all your input. I just read the Car and Driver test of aftermarket brakes. Very interesting. With the 308�s mid-engine layout, is upgrading just the front brakes worth the effort? I can see where there would be a big advantage with front engine layouts where there is a lot of weight over the front wheels. It would seem that the rear brakes do more work in mid-engine cars. Thanks again. John | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2002 |
Charles, I got your message. I will send a picture of the caliper when I get a chance next week. I am leaving mid week for a couple track events and the Monterey weekend. The caliper is made for the 360 disc, and if you intend to use it on a thinner disc, you will need to machine a spacer for the pad or piston to make up the difference. I'll tallk to you soon. | |||
| Charles I Claussen (Atlantaman)
New member Username: Atlantaman Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2002 |
Eric, Got your fax and wanted to say thanks. Would you have a picture of the back available so I can see how the cable attaches to it. Also--I am using .81" rotors--is it available for this thickness or only 1"+?? Charles | |||
| Charles I Claussen (Atlantaman)
New member Username: Atlantaman Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2002 |
Eric, Thanks for the help. I have already drilled and tapped the extra pair of "ears" and building the bracket is no problem. Thanks again and I will let you know how it goes. Fax: 770-642-7783 Please incluse a # where I can order the calipers. | |||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 97 Registered: 4-2002 |
Yes--indeed--A hearty thanks to Eric Dahl--keep up the excellent dialog. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2002 |
Charles, The parking brake caliper is available from this California office. I have a drawing in front of me that I can fax to you if you give me a number. The part number is X2.030.80/81 (lh/rh). Because the 308 rear upright has bosses for caliper mounting on both sides, you should be able to build a bracket for the application. However no bracket or mount system currently exists. | |||
| Charles I Claussen (Atlantaman)
New member Username: Atlantaman Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2002 |
Eric, Last year I redesigned my brakes on my 308 and installed 12.2" rotors and 4 piston calipers but in doing so I lost my parking brake. Brembo makes a mechanical parking brake unit for the 360 and I would like to get some info and drawings of it if possible so I can investigate mounting them on my car.I have had no luck getting info through e-mailing brembo directly and all your distributers are lost when I bring this one up Charles | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hello George, The numbers on the box are a ferodo part number. The only way to identify what material they are is to contact Ferodo. USA # 770-889-4096 I only have lists which list pad shapes, (FMSI #'s) and pad material. I do not have an application list. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hello Peter, I know enough about clutch linings to know that I don't know enough to make a recommendation for a particular brand. As far as the UK connection, Brembo is an Italian company, still based in Courno Italy, and is family owned to this day. Brembo is also an global company with offices and foundaries around the world. The only specific UK connection I am aware of is that last year, Brembo purchased AP racing in the UK. The plans for AP are not final, however the AP brand will stay put for the time being. | |||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Junior Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 236 Registered: 4-2001 |
Thank you very much Eric. It's fantastic to have you here answering out questions from a professional view. I think I'll go for Ferodo 2500. Eric do you also have information about clutch linings? Do you also know the UK-Italy connection regarding Ferodo? I have always thougt that Ferodo was an Italian brand but... Ciao Peter | |||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
New member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2002 |
Eric, those are the numbers off the box | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2002 |
Bill, I am in california, and the number is my office. Try during business hours, If I am not out driving some car and trying to light the brakes on fire, then I'll be at my desk or be sure to return your call. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2002 |
George, I am not familiar with the Ferodo numbers you have given, are these part numbers or friction material numbers? I dont find them in my ferodo lists. Either way, for street use, a good high performance pad is going to be a Pagid 421, a Porterfield RS4, and the Ferodo DS2500. All are great choices. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hello all, I am going to post a brief summary of high performance braking systems written by an engineer at Brembo,(M.Valskis). it is a Word document. I hope this summary can answer a great deal of questions, and open the doors to more questions.
| |||
| David Jones (Dave)
Junior Member Username: Dave Post Number: 222 Registered: 4-2001 |
Through my investigation of trying to improve the braking system on my 308, I found it not cost effective, IMHO, to go to a big brake setup on the 308, Unless you are racing the car... All said and done, you are looking at 10 grand to do properly... Fronts $2500. rear $4000. plus the cost of new wheels and rubber, you have to go to larger wheels for the brake kit to fit... It's just not cost effective to spend that much on a car only worth 30 grand. But I am very pleased with the cross drilled Brembo rotors I got from Race Technologies... The price was the best I have seen anywhere. I ordered some Green Stuff pads from Tirerack.com to mate with them, and have a much better braking situation now. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hello Mitch, What you are experiencing is pad fade. The pads are simply being pushed beyond their efficient temperature range. I don't know what pad type you are running. The discs are also overheating to some degree. The 355 has a decent front ventillation system, but it could be improved to bring fresh air to the center of the disc where it will ventillate outwards. No such kit exists for this yet that I know of, maybe Brembo should look into it? The calipers you have only take a few minutes to remove pads from. You can switch to a more racing grade pad for track days when you do not care so much about noise issues. Ideally you should use discs specific to any pad, otherwise there will be material tansfer and contamination issues, but this can be time consuming I know. A stock Ferrari pad is a good performance pad, but it like all cars must meet comfort and noise requirements of street driving. I am currently preparing a system for a clients F40 which we will test out at Buttonwillow this month. He speaks of it on the general discussion. Depending on how serious you are about the track time will determine how much money you wish to throw at the solution. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hello John, I am not positive that the system fits on the 328 series. We have not brought one in yet for measurement. The official word from ferrari is that there were changes in the knuckle for this car, which requires a new bracket design from us. We will be looking at it very soon. We also have 4 wheel systems for the Testarossa, and 512TR. 4 wheel systems are available for the 348-355 as well. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2002 |
Peter: The Pagid 421 is very close to the Ferodo 2500. The difference being in the 421 being developed to work on the street with little or no noise issues. The 2500 has slightly better high temp performance, but is noisy and not comfortable on the street. I am not as intimately familiar with the RS4. However I know that the same thing applies. It is a great all around pad, at the sacrifice of a little high temp friction. | |||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
New member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2002 |
Speaking of Ferodo, your opinion of FDB2-M, and FDB-11X for street use, or are there better pads? | |||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 298 Registered: 5-2001 |
Eric, Thanks for the info. I'll give you a call in the next week or two and chat about brakes. What is the best time to call you? | |||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 95 Registered: 4-2002 |
After a hot track day on the last lap of the last session I had a brake fade event, my rotors (front and back) came away with a dull "battleship" grey color instead of the typical metalic colorization. Has this amount of heat changed the friction coefficient of the rotor itself? I don't think this is a brake fluid boiling problem--because the pedal pressure remained solid if uncomfortable (and the fluid was only 2 week old), only the actual stopping distance increased. This leaves me with two possibilities: the pads, the total amount of heat. The pads were 200 miles (and 5 track sessions) old, and other than beeing used in a casual manner on the 200 mile drive to the track, were completely green at the start of the track day. Is it reasonable to assume that the greeness of the pads influenced the brake fade event? or Does the "battleship" grey of the rotors indicate that more air is needed to cool the rotors? or {make a useful suggestion} Car: 1995 F355 Berlinetta stock | |||
| John Cortina (Johncort)
New member Username: Johncort Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2001 |
Eric, Does the setup you mention for the 308 fit the 328 model cars? If not does Brembo offer a solution for the 328? can you post pictures of the various packages available? Thanks, John. | |||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Junior Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 233 Registered: 4-2001 |
Thank you very much Eric. New Q�s. You recommended Pagid 421 or Porterfield RS4 for track day use. Are those pads equal to Ferodo 2500? Do you recommend new discs when using Ferodo 3000 because of the excessive wear from those pads or are there other reasons? Ciao Peter | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2002 |
For Peter: -Yes, Brembo does own AP racing. It was purchased last year. -Brembo does not make brake pads, however we work very closely with many manufacturers for pad development. -Which pad Brembo uses depends on the application, we manufacture thousands of brake systems currently, which one(s)do you mean? -Yes, we have very strong connections to Ferodo. -The 308 line all used ATE braking systems. So I am unfamiliar with detail changes to that system. I know there were disc size changes through the production. The same pads I recommended to Richelson will work as track day pads. If you want to be more serious about your track time, then you should use new discs only for the track and a racing pad like the Ferodo DS3000. Know that this setup will be track only, and you will need to go back to your street discs and pads after. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2002 |
For Richelson: The 308 system can be improved by using more performance oriented pads. Know that the closer one comes to a racing type pad, noise and comfort issues will arise. Disc life will also be sacrificed to some degree. Stay away from people who are drilling discs, if this is done wrong, the disc becomes a time bomb. The only company who we feel is doing the job properly is Race Technologies, who work with us. I recommend Pagid 421 or porterfield RS4 as a good street pad with improved performance and fade resistance. The next step is to get the front replacement kit from us PN# 1A1.5004. This is the same kit I spoke of to Bill. I am available to answer questions in more detail at the number that I left before. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2002 |
For Bill: We have a new system for the 308 front. Because of the parking brake being integrated into the caliper on the rear of the 308, we cannot upgrade the rear to a 4 piston caliper without significant expense. We find that 308 owners are not willing to spend $4k for the rear system alone. The front system is $2595, and includes 4 piston calipers, 2 piece-aluminum hat racing type 313mm discs, brackets, and stainless lines. It is a direct bolt on. We recommend a rear pad upgrade to match. Give me a call and I can help you any further. 714-641-5831 xt 242 | |||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Junior Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 232 Registered: 4-2001 |
Same Q's but f�r 328. Q1: Do Brembo own AP Racing? Q2: Do Brembo make their own brake pads? Q3: If not who makes them? Q4: Do brembo have any connections with Ferodo? Q5: Do anyone know differences between 308, 328preABS, 328ABS and 328NewGeometryForABSbutNoABS regarding brake system? Q6: Do Brembo have any serious pads for an -88 328NewGeometryForABSbutNoABS for track day use? Ciao Peter | |||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 786 Registered: 12-2001 |
Good question Bill. Does Brembo have any ideas on how to increase the 308s stopping power? (rotors, larger calipers, etc.) | |||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 296 Registered: 5-2001 |
Eric, The 308 series uses ATE brakes. I believe the rears are the same as a Porsche 914-4 (or-6?)and have an integral hand brake mechanism. Can you recommend a Brembo front and rear brake package for the 308 series? Please privide part numbers. | |||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2002 |
I am an engineer with Brembo North America. If you have any questions, ask away, and I will try to get answers back to you. |
GT braking system