| Author | Message | ||
| Rodney Haas (Icars)
Junior Member Username: Icars Post Number: 121 Registered: 3-2002 |
Religion is nothing more than a large club. The problem with Fundamentalist Islam is it's a club controlled by the older generation. In the middle east you basically have an older generation who wants to keep control. It's not all the different than the rest of Asia. Take China for example same thing but the slightly different "religion". That being said the people the Fundamentalist hate worse than anybody are the moderates. This has been evident in Algeria for instance. There is no question that most of the fundamentalist would nuke us in a second without though to our lives. I personally also believe the Iraq war has much more to do with Oil and reshaping the middle east than terrorism. While Iraq may support terrorism and various ways, Iraq's culture in recent years had not been fundamentalist. Now is Oil a good reason for a war, sure why not. The war will cost the US economy in many ways. The war will also help the unemployment rate. It will also head off deflation. Rodney | ||
| Francisco J. Quinones (Frankie)
Junior Member Username: Frankie Post Number: 173 Registered: 8-2002 |
"I will keep my beliefs to myself but I expect other people to do the same." Amen,Charles. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2002 |
Des, keeping your religion to yourself has nothing to do with free speech. No one is saying you don't have the right to say, think, or believe the way you want. This is a matter of live and let live. Unfortunately most religious people don't understand this concept. A perfect example of that is what Frank said "DES, you are right that most religions depend on faith in their beliefs. But, only one of them is right. Isn't that the one you want to have faith in ? Discover Jesus and be saved." No offense Frank. Lawrence was right on when he said "The problem with organized religion is that some are convinced their imaginary friend is better than yours and their imaginary friend tells them they should kill you or, as a minimum, convert you. This has gone on since time began and will continue. It is a plague on mankind." I am not advocating we make a law that requires people to keep thier religion to themselves, I am advocating they do it on thier own! I could stand out in the middle of my street @ 2am and raise hell if I want to but I don't because I know it will bother my neighbors. This is a matter of having respect for other people. I will keep my beliefs to myself but I expect other people to do the same. | ||
| Andrew (Enzo250gto)
Junior Member Username: Enzo250gto Post Number: 72 Registered: 2-2002 |
OK this this a theology topic now or still a public policy topic? Regardless here is some suggested reading which studies Terrorism and religion and how they influence each other. The book everyone should read if they are SERIOUS about being knowledgeable on the topic http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520088689/qid%3D1009396537/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/104-0264486-7759165 Jessica Stern - http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/degreeprog/courses.nsf/aba163361f7adf748525676600686c40/999d153c212b67f585256944000fa8db?OpenDocument books by her http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674003942/qid=1042214455/sr=8-7/ref=sr_8_7/104-0264486-7759165?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 I also suggest the Bruce Hoffman's book on the above link. (title Inside Terrorism) Short essay (not very good) http://www.cid.harvard.edu/cidinthenews/articles/Globe_121502.html Pillar also has a book called "Terrorism and U.S. Foreign Policy" I think, just search amazon for Pillar. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 988 Registered: 8-2002 |
Tim... although i respect your right to your religion, Buddhism is not for me... i believe in PEOPLE (not to say that you or anyone else doesn't), but that's where my belief lies... That the common person, be it male or female, adult or child, from near or far, can reach down inside him or herself and find the strength to be good, in the purest, most basest form of what it means to be alive. For most, that ability has been corrupt by the immoral, iniquitous, societal brainwashing that we've allowed ourselves to succumb to; however, i still think anyone, if they truly looked, would find within them, the definition of what it means to be alive; to have a soul. That's what i believe in... i think that's what most religions were originally based on, if not something very similar but years of capitalism and greed and the putrid, filthy need to have more more MORE without regard for others led to the molding and restructuring of what we now know to be christianity and catholocism (among other religions)... (By the way: The song 'Don't Stop Believing' was just playing on the radio... thought that was funny...) | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1922 Registered: 6-2001 |
DES, if you dont want to believe in God, thats your choice. I for one, do believe in him. i consider myself a scientific person. I feel that science and reason can explain everything. How then can i belive in god? It's called faith. Also, the path to god does not pass through the doors to a church. Im not lutheran, but i like how they believe that salvation comes though faith alone. The catholic church, of which i am a member, places too much emphisas on good works and going to church. If you have faith, then you will do good works and be a good person. You just have to beleive in whatever you want to beleive in. Maybe you should consider buddhism, which teaches respect for other religions and their beliefs. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 984 Registered: 8-2002 |
You can't tell people to keep their religion to themselves... Then the next person will come along and say that you should keep things to yourself (whatever that may be)... & soon the entire concept of free speech will go down the toilet... No one hates someone knocking on the door at 7 o'clock on a Saturday morning more than i do, but they have every right, just like a door to door vaccuum cleaner salesman or the high school kid sticking the new pizzeria's menus in your mailbox... Freedom isn't just for me, it's for everyone and if i want it, i have to understand that everyone else is allowed to have it, as well... Arthur, i agree, there are many people who are deep-rooted into their religions and have hateful, hurtful, vengeful things to say and think and even do about and to individuals of alternative religions... There are just as many christians like that, as there are Muslims... Lawrence, i agree that this is a plague of humankind that began with time and will end with it... However, they think the same thing; that WE are the plague of humankind, that WE began with time and we will only cease when time does... i'd like to quote a stanza from a poem: "Amerigods... Ameragogues... Botanical, tyrannical, mechanical animals... Corporate prayer in federal churches... Vouchers, burdens; Americells surge in, urging convergence; Urchins, emergence, we serve this, Reverse it- My god killed your god, we absurdly deserve this." | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 454 Registered: 4-2002 |
The problem with organized religion is that some are convinced their imaginary friend is better than yours and their imaginary friend tells them they should kill you or, as a minimum, convert you. This has gone on since time began and will continue. It is a plague on mankind. Someone on this list hit the nail on the head when he said the 11th commandment should be to keep your religion to yourself. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 862 Registered: 6-2001 |
There is no solution to the argument about a diety. Despite our advancements in science, there are still people who believe in a deity described in the Bible. There are theories which describe how this place was created, and what it consists of, and despite the testing which has occured validating those theories (the famous lighting bending test done in South Africa in 1919 which showed that Einstien's theory was more accurate than Newton's theories, etc.) Some folks continue to believe. No problem, let them if it makes them feel good. The general theory they espouse is good: do good things, the problem arises when they start competing with each other about which of their believes is the more accurate. You must understand that for the most part, people who believe those religious stories have strong believes and in the past have committed terrible acts in the name of those religions, and even today, Christians, Jews, Muslins, and other continue to kill, injury, etc. other humans over their beliefs. The problem isn't the belief, its the religion, and the us against them that the religion forments. A good many of my friends are Jews (as I am, or was) Some of the things I heard from them regarding the Muslins are astounding to me. In my almost 60 years on this planets I have heard those professing to be Christian, say things that if Christ existed, would have sickened him, but they said those things believing that their religion authorized or condoned it. Art | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 981 Registered: 8-2002 |
LMAO, Frank, that's awesome. Point well taken, however, it's a point well proven as well... Frank, i used to be an avid church-goer until i saw the light- the REAL light... The collection plate is just another way for the centralist new world order capitalist christian system to tax me... There's only faith in the almighty dollar... It even says right on there, 'In god We Trust'- god isn't some deity to be worshipped, god IS the almighty dollar... i have spoken.  | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1663 Registered: 9-2001 |
DES, you are right that most religions depend on faith in their beliefs. But, only one of them is right. Isn't that the one you want to have faith in ? Discover Jesus and be saved. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 957 Registered: 8-2002 |
Charles, my apologies; i didn't sense your sarcasm regarding the neutron bomb- how unfortunate that inflection cannot be indicated on the internet other than a few smiley faces... My role-reversal, in lehman's terms was simply meant to imply that, if you were over there, you wouldn't feel the same way; again, my apologies for the confusion... However, part of free speech is my ability, my option, my choice to approach you and say, "hey, do you have a second...? i wanna tell you about this cool god thing..." Accepting that people have that right, just as you have the right to tell them to frig off is when youn can really appreciate freedom of speech (i'm not implying that you don't appreciate freedom of speech)... "Religion is a personal thing, it is not a fact, it is a belief and nothing more!"- and you're right, it IS a belief, that's why people feel so strongly about it, that's why believers are always trying to convert believers of other faiths: "Dude, you've GOT to believe THIS faith...! It's the best one out there, it's the most realistic" Lastly, it's more unfortunate that WE don't understand. For years, america's secret military fascist nazi capitalist corporate christian government has been gratuitously elbowing its way into the hearts of other, less fortunate countries in hopes of recruiting them... That the middle east (just one example) won't listen is a slap in the face of the ego of our stars and stripes reich, therefore due to that (and other things), we've taken the liberty of gearing towards completely obliterating cities, states, countries, PEOPLE merely because they won't let us have our way. i'm sorry, i know this is a touchy subject, but i must consider all siDES and part of that, is taking into consideration how the "opposition" feels. $0.02 | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2002 |
Des, I was kidding about the neutron bomb thing. I was just trying to point out that a confrontation between our two cultures was just a matter of time. I don't think your point about the role reversals is valid though. There is a big difference between us and them. If they had the power they would wipe us out just because they don't agree with our way of life. We on the other hand only want to preserve our way of life. Lets face it, if we wanted to we could have already wiped them out but we are not interested in that. All we want is to be left alone to live the way we want to, they want the rest of the world to convert to there way. I also don't agree with your point about religion. Keeping it to yourself does not take away your right to free speech. No one said you can't say, think, or believe the way you want to, just don't push it on me. I was just trying to say that if more people would spend less time trying to make everyone else believe the way they do we would all be better off. Religion is a personal thing, it is not a fact, it is a belief and nothing more! I have my own set of beliefs but I don't try to force them on anyone else. It is high time we all learn to live and let live, unfortunately our neighbors to the east don't quite get the concept! | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 938 Registered: 8-2002 |
Tim, i hear what you're saying but i have to lean towards the more unexplainable... it helps to explain other things not readily explainable... Charles, wiping out "the whole Muslim population" isn't a very good idea... If the roles were reversed and they had the means that we do and we were a poor, third world country like them, would you want them to take the same position...? You can't kill every person that belongs to a group or organization or religion or race- it's racism, first of all and it's genocide... it would be hitler and the gang, all over again... Keeping one's religion to oneself sounds great (especially to this atheist) but that then eliminates freedom of speech/freedom of expression/freedom of religion... You can only appreciate your rights when you have to stand up for the things you DON'T believe in, to keep them. i think religion is a total waste of time, especially the religions that preach hate (all of them), but more than that, i believe in freedom of speech and freedom of religion... So, yes, i think people should be allowed to be able to express their religion, even if i have to hear it, because i still have the option to bark about it, so they can hear ME... There's a balance with everything, the trick is to know what the balance is... killing "the whole Muslim population" is stupid and violent and advocates war and killing and maiming and pillaging and rape and murder and death and hate and pestilence and DEStruction and poverty and tears and loss and pain and that's not the answer... Until america gets out of the mind frame that it's ok that our parents are baking cup cakes to raise money for schools because an obscene amount of our taxes and federal funding is going towards weapons of mass DEStruction, then people will continue to think that your suggestion is ok, too. War is not a means to an end, war IS the end. (However, the complete annihilation of corporate america and the IRS and "the man" and "the establishment" isn't such a bad idea, though. ) | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1912 Registered: 6-2001 |
"Recent studies by scientists provide information that our DNA is so advanced, they're questioning whether it's possible or not if it could've evolved in only 4.5 billion years..." You would be amazed at the power of life. it finds a way. 3.5 billion years ago, single celled organisims with no nucleaus appeared. for over a billion years the only form of life on land were these simple (to someone who doesnt know wtf they are talking about) prokaryotes. It can be argued that the single biggest event in the hisroy of life on this planet was the formation of the nucleus and oraganelles, eukaryotic cells are what we are made of. After this, next thing you know you have colonial organisms and before you know it you, youve got hydra and otheroraganisms where the cells are organized. once coelomates originated, it just took off. Sure all of this took a long time, but it actually took place in alot less than 4.5 billion years. IT is almost unbeleiveable, but you gotta drop your consipracy theory ideas about everything. maybe everyhting just worked out right and thats why it happened so "fast"? | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-2002 |
I also have the solution to the Middle east problem. All we need to do is go in and use the nuetron bomb to wipe out the entire muslim world. It will all be over in a flash and the fallout will only last a few weeks. It is inevitable that there will be a clash between our two cultures anyway so we might as well act on it now while we are still in a position to win. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure! | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 102 Registered: 11-2002 |
I think there should be an 11th commandment! It should read "keep thy religion to thyself" Maybe this commandment will solve the problem! | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 258 Registered: 8-2002 |
William, you jest, but i believe it is a verisimilitudinous theory... other, unrelated theories i have taken into consideration don't confirm it, but they don't deny it, either... | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3146 Registered: 2-2001 |
For anyone that wants to see how we evolved, this is pure genius. btw, probably the best flash presentation ever made, it's that good and had that much work put into it. Just watch it, the whole thing, the best part is the end. http://www.elftrance.com/Flash/Evolution.swf  | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1667 Registered: 2-2001 |
DES, if it was the Vulcans I'm sure they are appaled at how their experiment has gone | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 200 Registered: 8-2002 |
Just to let everyone know... Recent studies by scientists provide information that our DNA is so advanced, they're questioning whether it's possible or not if it could've evolved in only 4.5 billion years... If not, our DNA came from somewhere else and ended up here... now where could our DNA have come from...? Hmmm... i think i know... | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 405 Registered: 1-2002 |
Art- Here is the cite you requested: Richard P. Feynman, Steven Weinberg Elementary Particles and the Laws of Physics Cambridge University Press, 1987 Feymans lecture is entitled: 'The Reason for Antiparticles' Weinberg's is: "Towards the Final Laws of Physics.' It is actually Weinberg that discusses the reconciliation of Einstein's general relativity, as it pertains to gravitation, and quantum theory. Feynman goes into the nature of antiparticles, and the relationship b/w quantum spin and statistics; a lot of perturbetation theory is discussed, hence the use of string theory. Enjoy. Regards, hubert | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 307 Registered: 3-2002 |
I think the oldest rocks we have found are 4.5 B yrs old, and estimates are about 6B for our solar system. I have even heard of radicals saying that this is not true, and that dating by measuring radioactive decay is false!!! | ||
| j scott leonard (Jscott)
Junior Member Username: Jscott Post Number: 242 Registered: 1-2002 |
Tim and Art: Should I weigh in? I guess not, I will resist the temptation. Enjoy though! Oh, I just can't. Tim: You should take a look at the supposed "contradictions" before making a definitive statement. Take a look for yourself, don't just accept what someone else says. That includes someone like me who has a Masters Degree in Theology. Search out the text, understand the context, research the language construction and understand that any english text is a "translation". Translations are subject to interpretation by the very nature of the process. That is why I have studied the original languages as well as studied the interpretative methodology of most versions of the Bible. When the detailed study is done, you will be better able to validate your arguments. Ehp. 2:8,9 clearly states that "Salvation is by grace through faith". James 2:14-18 discusses faith and works. However when one takes the time to exegete the passage, it is clear that "good works" are the product of faith and a manifistation of true faith. In other words, faith produces good works. Faith without good works is inconsistant. This is not to say that someone can not do good works without faith. It is just not a condition of salvation. So there it is guys, have fun. I would love to enter he debate regarding origins however, time will never permit. It is interesting to look at the physics though and try to explain the big bang in light of the laws of thermo dynamics. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 846 Registered: 6-2001 |
Tim: The materials for the earth were created in the big bang. there were probably several super novas required to make the heavier materials that the Earth is comprised of (not all at once, but sequentially). The solar system is about 4, 5 billions years old. If you have to change the words in the bible to make them truthful, then perhaps it is false. Hubert: I'd like a cite on Feynman's lecture you cite. I thought I'd read most of what he'd written, I did have trouble with his "six not so easy pieces", but enjoyed most of his other works. His though processes were clear and easy to follow, but the math took some time to get through (not sure I did get through all of it). I have read Einstein's Universe, and it was good. Art | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1758 Registered: 6-2001 |
Art, the earth was created 4-5 billion years ago. Maybe one of god's days is a few thousand years. Maybe resurecting christ tired him out and hes still asleep. sound stupid? maybe so, but who knows? DES-the point is you wont know if god existrs. Thats where faith comes in. People who beleive empirically may be less naive than me though. I have a scientific veiw of the world, but i beleive in god. Another place where the bible contraditcs itself is (im not sure of all the exact locations) it says that salvation comes through faith alone, and that you dont need to preform good deeds to be saved (the basis of th prodestant religion). Yet, somewhere else it says that you must perform good deeds to be saved. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 404 Registered: 1-2002 |
Art- I've read Hawkings book, you should look up Nigel Caulders (sp?) 'Einsteins Universe' along with, and I forget the authors name, 'Einsteins Dreams' a sort of sureal adventure into special relativity; imagine Proust giving a lecture on relativity, and you've got the picture. Also, Feynmann's disertation on string theory as it pertains to a possibilty for the grand unified theory is amazing, a bit heavy on the differential equations, but brilliant. It is a transcript of a talk he gave at an event celebrating Dirac. Regarding more scintific rhetoric, look into reading 'Chaos" by James Glick, wrote 'Genius' , tremendous idea(s); the new 'theology' in advanced mathmatics, per se. Regards, hubert | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 403 Registered: 1-2002 |
DES- Actually, you wanna know who the largest and most quickly growing group of people contracting HIV is? Heterosexual women. How are they contracting it? Heterosexual sex. Yes, there may have been a preponderance of homosexuals intitally diagnosed, but you should refer to the CDC and NIH sites for more up to date statistics. HIV/AIDS is prevalent, endemic rather,in Latin America, in particular in Brazil; however, in recent years, the rate of transmission has dropped and nearly every affected patient is receiving treatment, why? The world band funded hiv/aids education and condom programs. Further, the current rates of HIV/AIDS contraction, even compared to those in sub-saharan Africa, is greatest in easter Asia, namely Thailand; the prostetution business there is big, and contraction rates are skyrocketing as men visit brothels, subsequently infecting their partners, and futher infecting their unborn children. The propegation of the disease is at a cubic rate, and is not just advancing in Africa. Regarding the spread in africa, the competion of the kinsasha freeway lead to a tremendous increase in the rate of HIV infection among the prostitutes and truckers traversing this road; the same pattern is now being observed with US truckers. your comments regarding the locals of infected individuals; international travel now allows spread of a pathogen w/in hours, not weeks, months, or years. Look to the emergance of WNV(west nile virus) in NA in '99, NYC and NJ, how did that happen? How did swine influence make the cross species jump? Lastly, DES, I've spent a good portion of my professional carrer working w/ retroviral agents, namely HIV. Ihave seen terminal patients, and i've watched them die. I was there when AZT was the silver bullet, and I've been following the epedemic (from a scientific standpoint since its emergence) and would hasten to discredit those devoting their lives to a cure. Belive what you may, but if you can engineer a pathogen like this, or better, you'll be awarded the nobel, on the spot. My point? It is easy to defere to a conspiracy and dismiss and discredit all of our brainwashed scientific work, but delve in the pathology of HIV, i'st biology, and youll realize that this, agent, to have been made would have required the resources you don't covertly acrew. It's possible to have engineered it, but if you study the evolution and life cycle of HIV, you'd be less endowed w/ the presumption of it being an engineered pathogen. Remember Gallo's claim that he could infect hiself w/ HIV and not develop AIDS? At the height of the debate over HIV --> AIDS causality and his dismisal of HIV as the causal agent (remeber HTVIII)? Did he do it? No. -hubert | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 186 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hubert... i have a magazine article in front of me that says that certified scientists have studied and discovered that the constitution was really written by a 12 year old dyslexic, autistic Australian girl, who was kidnapped by politicians and brough to america... ...ok, so i don't have an article that says that, but it's real easy to print complete and total bullsh!t in a "respected" magazine and have complete faith that everyone will believe it... trust me, AIDS was invented, fabricated, MADE to destroy human life... depopulation... Notice the areas where it's predominant... (Africa, San Francisco, China, etc.)... Notice the percentage of minorities that have it as opposed to the percentage of whites that have it... Notice the percentage of homosexuals that have it as opposed to the percentage of heterosexuals who have it... If anyone can catch AIDS, don't you find it the least bit suspicious that the percentage of white males who have AIDS is far lower than any other percentage of those infected...? Terry... i'm not sure which part he wrote, i have no idea if it was psalms or not, i just know he contributed to a portion of the bible... i respect your beliefs and i agree that christianity and catholicism have been commercialized beyond belief (no pun intended) and that they very well might have been respectable in their origins... Arthur... Both are false... there is no god, there was no jesus, no "son of god", no saviour (sp?), no messiah- nothing. it's all hokey... (however, that still doesn't mean that you couldn't give me a glass of that wine...) Terry... You haven't riled us up, rather you've introduced a topic of conversation that most feel is too touchy to speak of... i respect you for that... if Arthur will give me a glass of wine, i'll certainly start a new thread with regards to my knowledge of aliens, government conspiracies and such... | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 358 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ok Art, Anyone can get hung up on literal interpretations. Its funny that since its so plainly obvious that the bible and christianity is simply such a farce and that any idiot can see this that millions and millions of intelligent people are duped. Ive heard excellent explanations and interpretations of Genesis and the creation story that show it not in such direct contradition to the earth perhaps being 15 Billion years old. If your interested, perhaps I can find more details. Art said: "more importantly the entire Bible is based upon the Tora, or its underpinnings, the two versions must stand together, for if the first isn't true, the second stands on a false premises. In that instance, all of the astrophysist agree that there is no way there can be contact from the original start of the universe and what it became" I dont understand what your trying to say. What "contact" are you referring too? In what instance? The Old and New testaments are indeed linked, but I fail to see how that relates to Astrophysics? Anyway, I dont want to argue and Im not trying to turn Ferrarichat into an evangelical mission. I also do not see the creation story or Noah's age as a direct contradiction within the bible. If God is powerful enough to create the universe, then granting Noah many years or creating things shouldnt pose a big problem. Yes this comes down to faith. Sorry to have riled you guys up so much. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 844 Registered: 6-2001 |
Terry: Creation? 6 days. Yeah. How about 15 billon years. Noah's 600 years? Right. Cells divide at a certain rate, longest someone can live is about 150 years, not 600 or thereabouts. there are just off the top of my head after a glass of wine, but still accurate. If you need more detail, give me a week, and I'll provide more. Terry, more importantly the entire Bible is based upon the Tora, or its underpinnings, the two versions must stand together, for if the first isn't true, the second stands on a false premises. In that instance, all of the astrophysist agree that there is no way there can be contact from the original start of the universe and what it became. Take a look at Hawkings: A brief history of time, with the foreward by Sagan. Sagan spells it out well. By the way, both had no faith. Art | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 357 Registered: 4-2002 |
DES, I was actually looking at a new international version of the Bible, the King James may be different. Same message, just diffent linguistics. If the words are in the order you say, I still dont believe its possible Shakespeare is responsible for writing psalms. The text of psalms translated from original greek and hebrew manuscripts dating over 1000 years is still spot on with translation. It could however be a neat coincidence. I wont hold out on you on any cam seal secrets just because your a godless heathen ;) Its not only pointless but somewhat immature to hold someones beliefs on such things against them. To each his own, were all free to choose what we wish to believe and I dont force my beliefs on anyone. I also hold very little respect for the nonsense that comes out of many organized "Christian" churches including the Catholic church. Its very frustrating that so much of what is taught in this country under the banner of Christianity has no biblical grounding and is way off from what the bible teaches as Gods desire for a relationship with us. Our culture places so much focus on "deeds" and so little on love, which is not what the bible teaches as Gods focus. Hmmmmmmmm alien abductions, Govt. coverups and orbiting anal probes... start another thread and break out the beers!!!! | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 401 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>germ warfare such as AIDS<< Last time I checked, into the world of epidemiology, the latest causal agent of x-species transmission was the use of chimpanzee meat as food in the congo; first instance of HIV was found in; A plasma sample taken in 1959 from an adult male living in what is now the Democratic Republic of Congo; HIV found in tissue samples from an African-American teenager who died in St. Louis in 1969; HIV found in tissue samples from a Norwegian sailor who died around 1976; there was, however, a 'conspircay theory' of sorts prompoted by hoppers book that inditeded the growing up of polio vaccine using monkey kidney cells, this, however, was later discredited as the specis of monkey cells used (macaque) cannot be infected w/ HIV, SIV, or related pathogens. As a means of warfare? Even untreated case have shown prolonged latency extending into years before the patient becomes immuno suppresed; so, unless you're intending to wait years to kill your enemy, you'd better pick a different pathogen. what scares me? new yorker had an article out a few years ago about the kremlins attempts at mutating the ebola virus ( a 7 protein hemorgahic fever virus) to become airborne. Thats the end of the world. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 185 Registered: 8-2002 |
Terry, Check again, i'm positive of the Shakespeare thing, i've even checked it myself... when i leave work, i'll go home and check it, again... And it seems a bit insipid that all god wants is for me to acknowledge him... wtf...? Someone go tell him to acknowledge me... oh, wait, he does, right...? 'cause i have the blessing of life and all that jazz...? If there is a god, he can stick his holiness up his ass and twist it, think about it: the mere fact that he's a "god" doesn't make him a god- this is gonna get too deep for a posting board. i'm sorry, i don't wanna seem like i'm taking this personal, i'm not, but the brainwashing that the corporate catholic capitalist nazis of america have done is irrepairable and for me to try to fix it, one person at a time is useless... america and the rest of the world is so f*cked, we really took the wrong turn with this whole life thing... This goes way beyond someone's beliefs and someone's church and someone's method of worship. i have complete respect for people and their religions- no matter what they are- from Islam to Satanism, i don't care, it's just my personal opinion that they're all crap. i'll never disrespect someone because of their religion nor will i ever disrespect religious figures or places or events, etc, etc, etc... but i will voice my opinion and i will- just like the fascist right wing christian movement of the world- take every opportunity made available to me, to explain how i feel and to explain my side and my beliefs (however, i won't force-feed you my bullsh!t until you're vomiting so much anti-anything-but-christian that you start to believe it, even against your own will)... We can really blow this thread open if everyone wants to- i have an open mind about everyone's beliefs and i'm hoping everyone participating feels the same... i'm apprehensive about voicing how i really feel because, after all, this is just a Ferrari chat site and i'd hate to get the cold shoulder if i'm trying to find out what a cam seal looks like for a 1960's GT Berlinetta, just because i think god and religion are bullsh!t- not saying that that would happen, but just in case... i know some people have trouble being completely open about beliefs other than their own... And in keeping with the original topic of this thread, we can abberate into all sorts of branches of this topic regarding the US government, conspiracies, 9/11, the current war, past wars, assassinated presidents, narcotics, the FBI, the CIA, germ warfare such as AIDS, Hepatitus B and so on... and if you're really feeling spicy, we can chat about aliens, alien existence here on earth, alien-human coexistence, moon bases, government cover-ups, abductions, "anal probes", DNA and a whole slew of other things i wouldn't mind jumping right into, with both feet... With that said, who's gonna be the first to bite this cookie...? | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 354 Registered: 4-2002 |
Crusing, yea I guess were on that path again ;) No big deal, I certainly dont get all riled up at folks for their beliefs or lack there of. Isnt such civilized discussion what OT is all about? | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 353 Registered: 4-2002 |
DES, The Shakespeare thing is total nonsense. The King James translation was done before he lived. The 46th word from the start of the chapter is "is" and the 46th word from the end is "bow". There is a word "quake" near the front of the champter and the work "spear" in the latter portion but this would be about as ridiculous a reach as I can imagine. Its always interesting that people who devote large amounts of time to really studying the bible (and I am not that well versed) come to understand that it is so much more than just a wives tale.... while those who have very little understanding and perhaps no first hand knowledge simply write it off. God only wants you to acknowledge him and share a relationship based on love. He doesnt force you. It does amaze me that so many just blow it off without really checking it out in any detail, when if you are wrong, well that could be a pretty big oooops. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 584 Registered: 2-2002 |
You either have faith or you don't. You will never find proof that Jesus was the son of God, or that God exists at all. I know that I have been wrong about many things in life. We can rationalize anything, and we can convince ourselves that God doesn't exist, but If we're wrong this time, we will pay the ultimate price for that mistake. Wanna gamble? | ||
| Crusing (Crusing)
New member Username: Crusing Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2002 |
Here we go again..... | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 572 Registered: 7-2002 |
I'm not saying that religion correlates with intelligence in any way. I just find it funny how pragmatic and scientific people are in thier jobs yet they take the written word as ultimate truth with zero proof. Why is red red? Because you were told that and everyone agrees it is red. I also think things were written in the context of the times. Did Jesus really "rise from the dead"? I mean what does that really mean? Did his dead, bloody body get up and say hello and then float up in the air to the clouds? I wasn't there so there is no way to tell what really happened other than what was written which was interpreted by the minds of the time. I mean people do get things wrong. Seizures=witchcraft, worshiping totem poles, sacrificing animals, people etc. We look at these things as barbaric. Like I said it is all perception. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 176 Registered: 8-2002 |
It is believed that Shakespeare helped write part of the Kings James version of the bible... Shakespeare died when he was 46 years old... in Psalms 46, the 46th word from the 1st word is shake and the 46th word from the last word is spear. That was done in his honor... The bible is a novel- a "wive's tale", passed on from generation to generation... it's this grand story people told each other, as they sat around a fire, because they didn't have television, so they numbed their minds with crap like that... (oh, man, i should just stay in the general discussion section...) | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 352 Registered: 4-2002 |
Tim, God gave the Israelites the 10 commandments, one of which was indeed thou shalt not kill. The commandments were given to the jews as laws to govern how they must treat each other. God also granted the land of Canaan to the Israelites and commanded them to drive out those living there. This involved warfare and indeed killing. I can see how you would see a contradiction. But lets look a little deeper: The Israelites were coming back to Canaan from Egypt after living in Egypt for over 300 years. It was never Gods intention for them to be in Egypt. They were there as a result of disobedience and sin when Jacob was sold into slavery by his brothers because of jealousy. If this had never happened and the Israelites had never been in Egypt then they would never have been forced to re-conquer Canaan and the killing to which you refer would never have happened. The Old Testament is chock full of stories driven by the Israelites inability and unwillingness to stick with Gods plan. The fact that the Israelites as a group and individuals did things against Gods will and commandments is not indicative of Gods lack of consistency or power. Its indicative of mans inability to lead a perfect life no matter what his intentions may be. This is the root. God knows we are not perfect and are not capable of living in a perfect manner. He loves us so much anyway that he allowed his own son to die and pay for our sins. Jesus was a bit different than your average nutcase who proclaims to be a messiah. David Koresh claimed to be the son of God, but after he died he was gone for good. 3 days after Christ died he arose again, appeared before over 500 people and then ascended into heaven before a crowd of people. David Koresh does not have followers today and his "religion" is dead. This is because its clear by his death and lack of resurrection that he was false. The fact that Christ did perform miracles and did rise from the dead is what drove his followers to take his story Christianity to the ends of the earth. Perhaps I am just simple minded. Simple minded much like: Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Billy Graham and countless other devout Christians who most people would consider more intelligent than most of us on this board. But hey, some people have a hard heart towards God and nothing will change their minds. Its a free country, to each his own. Man did I hijack this thread or what ! sorry. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 570 Registered: 7-2002 |
I think religion is crazy. I mean all these people are following words and killing people based on something written by "some guy" thousands of years ago. You only know what you are told about religion. Yes you can read it yourself, but it is left to interpretation. I mean if some guy was standing on the corner today preaching that he is the reborn son of god you look at him like he is a nut. Yet some guy said this years ago and it becomes truth because it is in written form. I agree with religious principles of basically being a good human being and doing the right thing. But that black and white view becomes disorted in todays world. I mean come on we even make amendments to the constitution which is only 200+ years old. I think it is funny when you question religion they never have any answers as it is all based on "faith" yet I am wrong for even questioning it. Simple minded people in my opinion. Yes we all seek meaning in our life and we hope there is a reason for it all, but what if it is just controlled chaos? When I fly over cities on business travel I look out the window of the plane and see small towns or small houses. Sometimes I think what if that house and its occupants just disappeared? Would it really matter in the grand scheme of things? Not really, but to those directly affected it would be catastrophic. It is all in perspective. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 161 Registered: 8-2002 |
Tim, i understand what you're saying, but i can't say that i'm proud to be an american... i consider myself human before i consider myself american... As far as brainwashing is concerned, you seemed to be open-minded enough about it to know that it's going on, right here at home... i wonder if you're interested enough to know just how much... Some of my friends say i'm a "conspiracy theorist", however, i just see it as being able to understand, comprehend, recognize and acknowledge the truth in what's really going on in today's world... If your interest lies further than this just being a topic of conversation, let me know, there's loads of interesting facts (and books) i could point out to you... | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2038 Registered: 9-2001 |
how many muslims or middle eastern leaders have come out publicly and denounced what the september 11 terrorists did?????? At least we freely debate whether what we do is right or wrong all the time. Of course we make mistakes but we a least allow open debate and critize ourselfs and are not always blind to our view. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1755 Registered: 6-2001 |
DES, i agree that "brainwashing" isnt happening onoly outside of america. If you are implying that its going on here, you are right. In elementary school and middle school up to 7th grade, we never learned about vietnam, jappanese internment, or any "mistakes" the US made. We were taught to beleive that we are the best, we recite the pledge of aligience every morning. I have national pride, but not because of that. I am proud to be american, but i will admit our leaders arent always right. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1754 Registered: 6-2001 |
One that i remeber is the commandment "thou shalt not kill." LAter in the bible, does god not command the isrealites to kill and smite people?? the ansswer is he does. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 157 Registered: 8-2002 |
Terry, the bible is nothing more than a best-selling novel... (oh, man, i really stepped in it, now...) | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 351 Registered: 4-2002 |
Tim, I honestly dont want to start another raging religious debate on here, but since you state the bible contradicts itself in many places I challenge you to show me just one. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1661 Registered: 2-2001 |
a great book about war was WAR by Gwen Dyer, it was a PBS series also. he covers the history of warfare from prehistory through 1980s. Seems war started as a sort of game between 2 tribes. imagina a soccer game but the difference is the goal is to kill a player from the other side. when the first player was killed the game was over & 1 team celebrated while the other team mourned. That was the begining and the end of that war game. Later when agriculture began land and people's labor acquired worth. That is when war became something much more ominous than a mere game & conquest & slavery began. Today its basically the same thing except the weapons have a lot more power. We want the oil under their land & we want an oil pipeline through Afghanistan, they want to maintain their status quo & keep on living like brutes & brutalizing their people & dont want us to stop them. round & round the story goes, I'm pretty bored with it after 10,000 + years of warfare that never settled anything | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1660 Registered: 2-2001 |
I really despise war & this 1 is no different. On their side you have despicable cowardly Muslim fundamentalists who are brain washing children & have no appreciation for human life or dignity. Our side has its share of scum also. Its an old boy network based on oil & weapons manufacturers & politicians all goosestepping to war, mostly to preserve the status quo & their position at the top of the food chain. The civilians who get killed are just collateral damage to the leaders on both sides. I cant say I have a lot of love for the leaders on either side | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 152 Registered: 8-2002 |
Tim... please consider that brainwashing is not just occurring OUTSIDE of america... i like the fact that you can take an open point of view about this whole thing, though... Ryan, i agree with you to an extent... i was born and raised here, in america, however, i have some insurmountable gripes with our government... i feared finding a post like this, yet at the same time, i can't help but respond... Tim: "It seems as if it's human nature to express your opions and beleifs, and then force them upon others." i don't know if that's the most valid thing you've said all week (i haven't read all your posts), but it's definitely a point EVERYONE should consider... Bret: "...it's just simple economics." "Terrorists" from "Afghanistan" (where the average person makes the equivalent to $800 a year), managed to "infiltrate" america and it's airlines and "commandeer" airplanes and slip by "superior american technology" to kill thousands of people... Our 'superior' economic system was stupified- we were left with our jaws hanging after finding out what happened... How did these "simple", "poor", "uneducated", "terrorists" manage to do this...? If their economy is so bad, how'd that manage to completely screw ours...? Please read Behold A Pale Horse... everyone... i'll try to leave it at that... my theories are far too "theoretical" to bring into discussion on an exotic car website... Thanks for hearing me out... | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1750 Registered: 6-2001 |
The bible contradicts itself in many places. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 350 Registered: 4-2002 |
John, you know questions like that on this board can lead to something resembling E-Nuclear War! Many passages in the bible must be taken in the context with which they are presented. Also many passages reference the times during which they were written. I think your question is a bit too broad for a "yes" or "no". I do believe the bible is absolute in that it gives us a direct insite into why and how God wants to have a relationship with us. The critical key I think is to take the word of God in its entirety, not in snippets. Its very easy for people, including religious people and leaders, to focus on certain passages to the exclusion of others and lose focus on the bigger picture. The bible is very consistent in the bigger picture, and the intricate way in which this consistent message comes out is incredible. I do find that much of todays "cultural christianity" does not resemble what the bible clearly spells out as Gods message for us at all. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 302 Registered: 3-2002 |
Terry, Do you believe that every passage in the bible is absolute? I am not trying to be cynical, just trying to hear other views. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 348 Registered: 4-2002 |
A scene such as the video in question is indeed horrible, but lets take it in context. Since Sept. 11 the USA is at war with Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists. WAR is a terrible thing. Think Hiroshima, Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo.... in war there are not necessarily any civilians. Its easy to say "war is horrid" and such but then in the same paragraph people will talk about how we can be more civilized in our warfare and only target the "guilty" or the politically correct targets. Well my friends, that would not be war that would be a farce ala Vietnam. There is a reason war MUST be so horrible. Its because this is the only way to victory. War is won when you make things so incredibly horrible and terrible for your enemy that they are willing to give up their beliefs, belongings, nationalism and EVERYTHING else if it will put an end to the war. This may seem brutal, inhumane and atrocious but it is the fastest way to end the war. Better to have a shorter period of heineous killing than a protracted suffering. This is the kind of warfare our enemy is currently attempting to wage on us. We have faced similar religious fanaticism in warfare before. The Japanese in WWII were just as willing to die for their Emporer. They were so fanatical that they would throw their children off cliffs and jump after in suicide rather than risk capture by American soldiers. The only way to win in a war against this type of beliefs is to make them face a simple choice: either total surrender or total annihilation of your entire population, culture, religion and civilization. When they realize that this choice is their reality the war will be won. Not until then. This mean to win you will be killing the "innocent" civilians. They grow food that may feed the guerillas in the hills. The clerics in the Mosque preach hate for the infidel. Journalists and political leaders urge the people toward violence in the name of Allah. All of these are legitimate targets if this war is really to be won. I hate this and it brings anguish over the thought of how horrible this will be, but there really is no other legitimate choice. Im no giant GWB fan. I also wonder what if any "proof" the administration has against Iraq. Then again, Saddam is a bad guy; Iraq does have huge oil reserves and we do need a strong central base for the coming larger war against Islamic Fundamentalism in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran and other nations. So while im sure it will not appear "fair" and the world may be too short sighted to see the bigger picture, an Iraq "friendly" to the US may be a good thing. Not only for the US but for the Iraqi people. I know this sounds nuts. But give it a few more years of escalating terrorists attacks and a general lack of assistance in stopping it from the Islamic world. Lets see the economic effects of a protracted war on terrorism and no apparent real progress. In time it wont seem so nuts at all. Arthur: please show me in detail the "proof" you have that various passages in the christian bible are false. I for one most certainly do not know of any such supposedly public knowledge relative to falsehood in the christian scriptures. I actually find the opposite. The more I study the Bible, the more I find an amazing consistency to Gods message woven through time that is impossible to be coincidence. Also please dont judge the truth associated with Gods message and love for us based on the ill deeds man may have done in the past in Gods name. If anything, the history of religion proves over and over again how man is so unworthy of Gods love, yet He loves us anyway. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 611 Registered: 1-2002 |
Tim, they can think they are right all they want. And in their country, they may well be. But when they come here, to my country, and use my country's things & people to murder 3000 of my countrymen, and lay waste to one of my country's permier landmarks--one of the things that encourages millions of other people to risk their lives to try to get here & set up a better life for themselves--all bets are off. And they have been doing this since 1993. So I'd say that we definitely have horse crap in our stables. And it's them, the cowards. 'Nuff said. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 300 Registered: 3-2002 |
The enemy prefers governments and people who push certain religious beliefs on their own people and the world. They become the enemy when they use violent means to do so. It's completely unnecessary. We simply let people decide how they want to believe without mandating what is or isn't the true religion. It is the most wasteful thing to kill people because you believe your religion is more correct than another person's. Argueing for completely subjective "fact" is pointless. So in regards of who is right and wrong, I think the the answer is obvious. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3119 Registered: 2-2001 |
Might is right. They think they're right, we think we're right, and bottom line is we'll kick their ass if they want to fight. It's not being all pro USA, etc. it's just simple economics. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1747 Registered: 6-2001 |
Crusing, what i'm saying is that the people who we see as crap in the horse stables see us as crap in the horse stables and want to clean us out. Take the way we feel about them, thats how they feel about us. it sort of begs the question "Who is right?" we all think we are right, they think they are right. How do we know who is really right in this situation? no side is going to change thier mind, i know i never will. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 843 Registered: 6-2001 |
Tim: Religion is, was, and will be the root of all evil. We know that the various bibles contain false information, but those who are religious choose to ignore that which is provably false, and just use what we cannot, at this time, prove to be false. I'm not picking our just one of these fables, their all alike. From the Egyptians beating on the jews, to the Crusades, to as recently as the Serbs thumping the Muslins, there has been strife attendant to those who claim they believe. I've alway felt that the reason for religion was to provide an excuse for our most basic instincts. Art | ||
| Crusing (Crusing)
New member Username: Crusing Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2002 |
I respect your points but I have a couple points Ryanab: Bush is not pushing Americanism. That is what you may want to see. We're just cleaning the crap (terrorist or groups who support terrorists) out of the horsebarn. Once the barn is clean of the crap - the barn will still belong to the horses. South Korea is really not complaining too much about what we did their country after the Korean War. As for the two front war... We seemed able to fight two fronts in the past. By your logic we should have just fought Japan rather than coming and bailing out your motherland. By the way, had mother England gone with a premeptive stike against Hitler in the mid 30's rather than waiting until Germany was a power, there may not have been WWII. I don't especially like the policy either. But what are you going to do... wait for more attacks. Sounds like Chamberlain... And what a foreign policy wizard he was. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1746 Registered: 6-2001 |
I'll tell you why religious wars are happening. It seems as if it's human nature to express your opions and beleifs, and then force them upon others. If you dont think that is true, i dont know what to say. that is the most valid thing i have said all week. | ||
| RyanK (Ryanab)
Junior Member Username: Ryanab Post Number: 176 Registered: 3-2002 |
BTW, I'm not preaching anti-americanism, I respect America. We are in this war together. I just disagree with your Gov't and its foreign policy... Ryan | ||
| RyanK (Ryanab)
Junior Member Username: Ryanab Post Number: 175 Registered: 3-2002 |
Oh yeah, how can they start another WAR and not finish what they started? Osama and Mullah are still out there, the Taliban and al-qaeda are now regrouping, a marjority of the aid that was promised to Hamid Karzai and Afghanistan has not been recieved and there are growing tensions between Afghanis and US Troops (How many missile attacks or shootouts do we hear about). There is your threat. Look at the freaking no-fly zones in iraq that the American and the Bitches.. ERRR.. British patrol. Not to mention economic sanctions. Can't wait to see how the US exploits the weapons report from iraq and uses it as an excuse to start a war. I smell oil... | ||
| RyanK (Ryanab)
Junior Member Username: Ryanab Post Number: 174 Registered: 3-2002 |
Of course it is just "pick off" any Afghan that "might be" a terrorist. I also cannot understand why George W. Bush is ignoring what is occuring in his homeland and putting all this energy into a mere farce that is the "War on Iraq".. I mean come on, if Dubyah had his way, pre emptive strikes would be launched in countless counties around the world. This is a guy who when he was attempting to get elected, could not name political leaders around the world and the countries they lead. What makes you think that he cares now? Forcing Americanism and Democracy (as great as it is) around the world will never work, ever. Attempting to try is just stirring the pot even more, and WILL entice more attacks against the US and allies. This is an incredible issue because both sides are passionate, as Tim said and will stop at nothing to get their point across.. Ryan | ||
| Crusing (Crusing)
New member Username: Crusing Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2002 |
Well put Bret. I don't want to turn this into another religious post (Please not again) but since nearly all religions preach peace why is there so much religious violence? Including Christianity. We shouldn't look at us trying to enforce our will on other people, we are trying to preserve our way of life. And there is a huge difference between us and them. The only thing oppressive in the U.S. is the tax system. Freedom is right, and anyone who doesn't like our system is fine unless they try to affect our freedom. I hate any innocent person dying, but there is no question who should die between an american and an Afgani or Iragi (sp?). One must remember that ours is simply the response. The response may be brutal. But one should not spit in the face of Mike Tyson and not expect to be turned into his wife! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3108 Registered: 2-2001 |
Since the origins of the Islam religion there has been fighting along it's borders. Whether those borders are with Christianity, Buddhism, or Judaism really doesn't matter, they have fought with all other religions. If you don't agree with me, research it first because I know for a fact this is true, I did three papers on it last month. So maybe Islam as a religion isn't violent, maybe the Koran doesn't preach war, but people should take their head out of their ass and actually look at what happens. Enough of the bullsh_t about how because Islam is theoretically a peaceful religion, the people that practice it must also be peaceful. I'm sure there are nice Islamics in the Middle East that unfortunately are caught in this whole thing, want no part of it, but can't escape it because of their largely tyrannical governments. BUT, are you gonna sacrifice the whole world to save this percentage of Muslims that don't agree with the terrorists. Sorry, but to me that is ridiculous. And don't forget the hundreds of billions of dollars the assholes cost this country. Did people say we shouldn't attack the Nazis because we might kill some innocent Germans? Of course not, so why should this be any different. So let's just sum this up, since the beginning of Islam (which in my opinion is a pretty sketchy religion to start off with, any of you really researched the prophet Muhammed?) it has fought with everyone it can. Now in the last 30 years it has picked up the fighting ten fold, and began largely focusing it on western powers. This of course leads to a natural progression to the United States which is the symbol of western life. Do you guys honestly ignore all the terrorism that has gone on since the 70s, I mean are your memories that short? Now you see all this stuff about how our "allies" in the Middle East actually have their hands in on terrorist funding. You guys just ignore this? It's a lot easier to be easy, liberal, and say everyone should live, that would be beautiful. It is infinitely more difficult to be realistic about the situation. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 576 Registered: 2-2002 |
Tim: You are absolutely right, war is hell, and the wanton destruction of innocent people is senseless; however, we can't just sit back and let them destroy us, can we? A big part of the problem is that we can't tell who is with us and who is against us, and many of those proclaiming to be on our side seem to be lying. Yes, they have a right to their opinion, and in their minds we are the aggressors who are meddling in their world and need to be stopped. To them, 9/11 was justified because it was the only way a backward society could strike out against a superpower. We see it entirely differently. Unfortunately, the extremist Muslims don't want co-existence, they want to wipe us off the globe. Remember how they destroyed the ancient Buddhist monuments in Afghanistan solely because they represented a way of life that they didn't agree with? The world lost priceless artifacts for the rest of eternity as a result. What possible good could come from assassinating the Pope, yet they've tried once and will try again. I think that the war on terrorism is going as well as can be expected, but its difficult to win a war in which the opposing sides play according to different rules. Its like our own Revolutionary War when Francis Marion and his band whipped the British using guerilla tactics, only we're on the other side now. Of course it is different because the Swampfox and his men were not the cowards that the Al Qaeda have proven to be. We are fighting an enemy that has infiltrated our society and that is using its openess against us. They are angry, hateful, jealous people who hate Western society but seem to love our satellite phones, weaponry and SUVs. Like you, I feel for all of the innocent people who will pay for the sins of their leaders. I am against bloodshed and against guns in general, but I am no pacifist. These guys need to be stopped at any cost. | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 581 Registered: 2-2002 |
Tim N - that's smart post mate..... well put. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 563 Registered: 7-2002 |
Tim's point is the very reason all of this stuff is going on. Every country and person in the world has an opinion. And those opinions are based on what they live, know and are told. The USA can and does do bad things and we do it in countries like the ones that are pissed at us. Now these poor countries are easily taken advantage of being that they are uneducated, no economy or whatever. They live in dirt houses and eat grass for dinner. They know what they are told and that story gets distorted by the powers that be. To some of them all they have is religion so somebody takes that and twists it into a good thing to die a martyr. I am no sympathiser either, but how do you pick the good ones from the bad ones. They don't wear fatigues or salute or fly airplanes. They look like civilians, but then BAM! they blow up a bus. Yo can't fight them toe to toe. Very complex and confusing issue. Now what abotu North Korea? | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1742 Registered: 6-2001 |
I didnt say they were right. i firmly beleive that we were right, so dont try to tell me that. How can you say that our response shouldn't be compared to what provoked it? that is one of the most rediculous things i have ever heard. The 2 have to be compared, if one didnt happen, neither would the other. If you respect my right to have an opinion, why dont you respect their right to have one too? I dont mean respect their opinion, i dont, just their right to have one. (this is just to make you think)Those guys can have their opinion, and it is that opinion which is why i dislike them extremely. american, always was, always will be, but at least give it some thought. Those who lost their lives on the 11th were mothers, fathers, borthers, sisters, sons, daughters, etc too. I agree that the C130 was doing that had to be done, but if you like seeing people be killed i suggest you seek counseling. I guess you could argue that they arent free thinking, because they have most likely been "brainwashed" so to speak, but i dont know how to tie all that in to the discussion. dont for a second think that i am trying to justify the act that provoked our response because i am not. I may have been a little extreme in my comparison. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 609 Registered: 1-2002 |
Ask the 3000 folks who died on Sept. 11, 2001 whether they think their beliefs or backgrounds had any influence on their murders. Oops, youcan't, 'cause they were murdered by many of the folks the C-130 hosed. I respect your right to have an opinion...but equating our response to what provoked it is gonna REALLY piss me off, so I'll just shut up now. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1740 Registered: 6-2001 |
I saw a video online, link is below, that made me wonder. It is a tape from a C130 gunship taking out ground targets. Those guys on the ground getting blown up think they are just as right as we are. To them, what they are doing is just as right as we think what we are doing is right. Dont get me wrong, im not a sympathiser or anything, but those guys running around getting blown up were peoples fathers, sons, brothers, cousins, uncles, etc. they had families too. how did the C130 know that they werent just innocent people praying at the mosque that is there? Not all afghans are terrorists, im not sure how many, but i doubt all of them want al queada in their country. I guess its easy to kill someone when they are a faceless dot on a screen. What happens in this vid is almost as cowardly as what started the war on terrorism. http://skynet.bizatchu.com/AC130_GunshipMed.wmv |