| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 898 Registered: 7-2002 |
Ah, little Devil Horns...Nice.... | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Intermediate Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 1069 Registered: 1-2001 |
Jim, You missed something!!! look very closely at the drivers head (helmet), there is another (coincidental) optical illusion there. -Ben P.S. For those who ask yes it's not a real pic, it's a PS crop job (done very well), as the flag wouldn't be flapping in the same direction the car is moving. The image shown is ~1/10th actual size. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4154 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ansgar, my home town. That picture must be from the soccer world championship, maybe 1 hour later. Gosh I walked down these street when we skipped school. Love the picture Ben. Rob, see it is not just on UN things where we slow down the world. What is funny though is all the green party environmentalists are driving next to them in the Jeep  | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 895 Registered: 7-2002 |
An Italian Car connected to an American flag by a Chistian cross. What are you trying to imply? | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Intermediate Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 1068 Registered: 1-2001 |
Here's my submission:  -Ben | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4157 Registered: 12-2000 |
Man, that's one fast Lambo to need a parachute! Leave it to the Germans to help slow things down!  | ||
| Ansgar Schürmeyer (Taunus)
Junior Member Username: Taunus Post Number: 136 Registered: 6-2002 |
Third try:  | ||
| Ansgar Schürmeyer (Taunus)
Junior Member Username: Taunus Post Number: 135 Registered: 6-2002 |
I think this flag pic is better Good possibility for patriots. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4155 Registered: 12-2000 |
LOL, Dancia and I have that in common. I use to get out of my car and go "talk" to the person all the time. Nobody ever wanted to fight me though, I had a few get out and approach me and I got soo excieted and got out only for them to run back to their car. I'm a weakling these days, geez, no one wants to have a good ole fun scuffle. I don't know what happened, but I just don't get mad at stuff like this anymore. Maybe at 29 I've finally grown up. | ||
| Ansgar Schürmeyer (Taunus)
Junior Member Username: Taunus Post Number: 134 Registered: 6-2002 |
I think this flag pic is better Good possibility for patriots. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 880 Registered: 7-2002 |
Thanks God...I mean...your lucky stars that Rob doesn't carry a pistol in his car! Road Rage potential! | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4148 Registered: 12-2000 |
Jere, very well spoken, I admit I have a weakness of being susceptible to this. I may only have a problem with one part of a persons overall opinions, but I go to "war" with the entire person over it. You forget about the rest of the person and all of a sudden that one facet takes over your perception of that person. At my level I have this problem when a person expresses one of their small "parts" over religion, politics, Porsche  , and etc. I think this is the same motivation for why nations go to war. Does America have problems with how Iraq does the majority of what it does? Not really, but they've done a few things that have taken us to war with their ENTIRE country. You wouldn't believe the rage I get sometimes at other drivers and the thoughts I have. I feel personally threatened and attacked if someone puts ME in an unsafe situation. So am I going to go to war with this person because of just one small incident like this? A minute later I will of probably forgot about it and I will be home with my wife and they'll be home with their family and we'll all go to work the next day. It's our human nature to FOCUS on a situation and that is jointly one of our strengths and weaknesses. | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 243 Registered: 1-2003 |
I think that we see here the difference between mature, reasonable open-minded individuals and close-minded, opinionated bigots who want to be in your face if your ideas differ from theirs. I think that is what ails this country and probably all others. Someone states and opinion or belief that another person does not agree with. A difference of opinion is stated and it is treated as a personal attack, not just a statement of opinion. The person who feels they are being attacked retaliates with some inflammatory statement of their own and the verbal war begins. Pretty soon it esculates and someone decides to throw a punch. It becomes a wrestling match that no one can win and both parties will be hurt by and proves nothing. I also believe this is how most wars begin. Of course these are just my opions so please do not take them as an attack against anyone. | ||
| Phil Bryson (Phildo)
Junior Member Username: Phildo Post Number: 101 Registered: 8-2002 |
Art, Couldn't agree with you more. No on should impose a position on someone else. Jere clearly said the same and that's exactly my point in this particular instance. A picture of a flag was posted that some felt inspired by. That's all. No verbiage mentioning religion - certainly nothing close to "Church and State should be intertwined". Why the backlash against those who want to believe their faith in Country and faith in God [however they perceive and define 'him' (oh, man I think I just opened a whole new pandora's box)] are aligned? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1127 Registered: 6-2001 |
Phil: What's I'm objecting to is the imposition of someone's beliefs that I don't agree with. Jere didn't do that directly, but he does support the religion. The entire point is that if one doesn't believe in the religion (and there are quite a few who don't) we should not put something that someone doesn't want in their face, and most certainly we should not make it a part of our governance. Rob and Jere are right, this was a reasoned discourse, nobody got personal (at least between us) and all the positions make a bit of sense. Regards, Art | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 143 Registered: 7-2002 |
I still think I'm right! | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 874 Registered: 7-2002 |
I think it remained civil b/c you all were trying to express your own views rather than convince/convert others to your way of thinking. You all also had logical arguments supported with evidence. You all also acknowledged each other's views and evidence rather than try to totally discount it as false. | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 241 Registered: 1-2003 |
Oh yeah, well my old man can whip your old man and your mother wears combat boots!!!! So there!!Naa Naa Naa Naa Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. It has been a good exchange hasn't it? Thanks for everyone remaining civil. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4135 Registered: 12-2000 |
Phil, there's nothing wrong with posting the picture or commenting on the picture as we've done. It's been a healthy conversation to this point between Jere, Art and myself. | ||
| Phil Bryson (Phildo)
Junior Member Username: Phildo Post Number: 99 Registered: 8-2002 |
What I don't get is the fervor against a Christian (and Jere provides a very good definition) perspective. Jim posted a cool picture. We are at War. If some who believe like the fact that there is a coincidental religeous image within, so what? Why try to diminish that for them by instantly accusing them of thinking church and state should be intertwined? No one said anything of the sort. I don't see how anyone got this just by viewing the picture - this comes from ones own agenda. | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 238 Registered: 1-2003 |
Art, I did not take it as a personal affront. There are many organizations in the US and worldwide who are operating under the guise of "Religion" and using it to their best advantage. I do not agree with their tactics and do not believe it should be done. If nothing else, it gives a bad name to those who truly believe and say little. There is currently a case going here in Texas concerning a televangelist named Mike Murdock and his methodology. I have held this man in suspect for several years and have been wondering when his little world will come tumbling down around him. The Fort Worth Star Telegram just did a 5 day expose on him recently and cut right to the meat of the subject. This man is one who gives true Christianity a bad name, just as did Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, Robert Tilton, Rex Humbard and many others. Their personal wealth increased greatly as those "under their shepherding care" gave away their life savings as these charismatic "leaders" encouraged them to do. I can only believe that one day these people will be held accountable for their actions. And I am not talking about the accountability that they have to stand responsible for now. It is also not up to me to get anyone to "Believe in God". That is something that certainly cannot be forced. Not all people will ever believe. Some will convert to and some will move away from believing in God. This is a never ending story and always will be. I will say however that whether you believe in God or not that if we would all attempt to follow the Ten Commandments, this would be a much better and more peaceful world. The directives could be used in secular, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhaist or atheist societies and I believe hold up to the test of time in being the "right" things to do. Whether they were brought about by Mohammed or God or me or you, they are of good value. Just my thought. I enjoy the exchanges that can take place on this forum and the variant of ideas and beliefs that are expressed. There is much to be learned from both sides of a point here. Best regards, | ||
| Steve (V10_nut)
Junior Member Username: V10_nut Post Number: 66 Registered: 3-2002 |
Thank you all for not making this post an "I'm right you're wrong" slugfest and rather, a mature discussion and expression of beliefs. The brave men fighting beneath the flag pictured are Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Buddists, non-believers and everything in-between. This certainly proves the notion that freedom of religion is alive and well in the USA. This debate of church/state will undoubtedly continue and while I am a Christian and find the photo personally pleasing, I'm certain the founding fathers did not intend to form the United States of the Christian Religion. Art...I read your posts with interest (primarily because you seem to use logic rather than misguided emotion to state your various cases). While our views on politics and religion are very far apart, I would defend to the death your right to express them. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1124 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jere: I didn't mean you personally, but the entire area of what I call active christians seems to want to interpose the term "god" into those things which the government does. That same group seems to think that this country is a "christain nation" and is acting is if those who disagree are somehow immoral. I disagree. An example of that type of thought if the pledge: When I was a kid, the term "under god" wasn't in the pledge. It was added in 1954 as an "anti-communist" type of slogan. The 9th circuit, in my humble opinion, properly deleted that phrase, saying that it was bared by the constitution. I agree. Religion is Religion, and we who don't believe that there is a god, are protected under the constitution from using government funds to support religion. As to those who contend that the 9th circuit is somehow out of hand, etc. I would remind them that it is the largest appellate circuit, with twice the judges of any other such circuit, and with the most population under its jurisdiction of any other such circuit. Given its huge size, it is going to have more reversals than any other such circuit. Art | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4131 Registered: 12-2000 |
I don't think you've said anything offensive. | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 234 Registered: 1-2003 |
Rob, Believe me I know about how knowing just a little is dangerous. Many years ago I was one of those who knew a little and thought I knew it all. Not true. I also know that religion in and of itself is very restrictive and binding with all its rules and obligations. There definitely is a strong difference between religion and believing in Jesus Christ. Religion has a strict set of rules to be followed with dire consequences being had for not following these rules. Believing in Jesus Christ and allowing Him in your heart is a very personal thing and is very freeing. Just because a person believes does not make him or her perfect or incapable of doing wrong. We all mess up something everyday. It is just that we have something within to turn to when we foul up or actually any time we want. I am not an as you say "in your face, believe like I believe" person. All of us are at different levels of maturity and we should be accepted that way. If someone asks me about my beliefs, I will gladly share. It is up to them if they choose to believe like me or not. I can say without a doubt that there is a very lot I still have to learn about many things. Given my fifty odd years on this planet, I still believe I am an infant in the knowledge dept., but I am still open to learning more. If anyone has taken offense at what I have posted, I am sorry. I definitely did not intend to make it that way. Please take what I have posted as my opinion and we all know we are all allowed to have these. When I say "Christian", I am referring to someone who has accepted Jesus Christ in their heart as their personal savior. I am not referring to their actions, words or intentions. They will have to answer for those someday themselves. We are given free will and how we apply it is directed by our level of maturity, conscience and the knowledge of right and wrong. All of us are at different stages in this. Hey, peace ya'll, and may this turn into a wonderful day for you. Go make it so. | ||
| j scott leonard (Jscott)
Member Username: Jscott Post Number: 329 Registered: 1-2002 |
Grear picture Jim. God bless America! | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4130 Registered: 12-2000 |
Jere, you think everyone that uses the word "God" is a Christian? Like an Onion has many layers, there are also many layers of spirituality. Some are deeper and closer to the core than others. My father had a doctorate in theology and was a Presbyterian minister. His spirituality was extremely advanced and I benefited from his teachings through my entire pre-adult life. I think that foundation was very important for me to get where I am now. I don't think I could of just jumped to where I am now with my spirituality. I understand how everyone is at various stages of that development. Isn't it true with anything you are trying to develop that at first you're in awe, then you know enough "to be dangerous" or think you know everything, and then you realize there is so much more to know and you really don't know anything. You know where you can see the most fundamentalist Christians in one place? A NASCAR race, honestly, I�ve been to many types of public events and it�s true. Billy Bob will stop calling his wife a ••••• for one minute and put down his beer to bow his head as the evangelist preacher says the pre race prayer. Again, don't think I'm classifying all Christians, my mom goes to a Methodist church now. Only denominations I have a problem with are the in your face "you have to be saved" left behind I don't listen to you but you listen to me uneducated bible beating literalist wife should be subservient give my money away to Oral Roberts racist hypocritical low life�s. Jere, I know you're not one of those. | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 141 Registered: 7-2002 |
Jere, I'mon you side. I'm a Catholic. I go to church EVERY Sunday and all the days of Holy Obligation. But, the founding fathers were NOT Christian. So what! Who gives a ••••. They all (I think) belived in God, but not the God you and I think that cares about our everyday lives. I don't need a government to believe. Bob | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 233 Registered: 1-2003 |
Art, I am not shoving it in your face and if you feel I am, I apologize. I have seen in the past few years that if anyone of the Christian persuasion happens to mention it, there is an almost instant barrage of criticism. We are usually told we have nothing to stand on and are a pushy lot. I am not of the Jerry Falwell type. I rarely express my beliefs, especially in public forum. I feel they are my own and I should protect them. I do not try to force my self or beliefs on others but I will offer proof if someone challenges me. That being said, if I owe you an apology, I'm sorry for offending you. It was not done on purpose. Now, how about us getting back to talking about the war or something. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1120 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jere: No one is attacking your belief. What we are discussing is the Christians imposing their beliefs upon the rest of us, who may not believe as they do. I think its great that you have something that helps your belief system, just don't shove it in my face, give me the right to hold my beliefs without imposing yours upon me, I just may not believe in what you believe in. That proposition goes for public displays of religion financed by my tax dollars. Art | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 232 Registered: 1-2003 |
Oh, and Mr. Callahan. your statement about the first 19 presidents not being Christian. I offer another quote and will gather more to show your statement holds no value. "It must be felt that there is no national security but in the nation's humble achknowledged dependence up God and His overruling providence". John Adams-2nd President of US I have many more to back up what I say. | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 231 Registered: 1-2003 |
If I may be so bold as to give you a few quotes of a few people. I am not trying to push my beliefs on you or anyone else. I am stating my beliefs and standing on them. You have your choices to make and far from me to make them for you. I did not say that this is a Christian nation, even though I wish it was. Blast me if you will. I can take what you will give out. "I now make it my earnest prayer that God would have you, and the state over which you preside, in His holy protection: That he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another. For their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for bretheran who have served in the field: and finally that He would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation". George Washighton "Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Ruler of the Universe. Religion is the basis and foundation of government". James Madison "It cannot be emphasised too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here. Patrick Henry-original member of the Continental Congress "For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us. So that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause Him to withdraw His present help from us, we shall be made a story and a byword throughout the world". John Winthrop-Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, 1630 "It is the duty of nations, as we as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God and to recognize the sublime truth announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord". Abraham Lincoln "Entering thus solemnly into the covenant with each other, we may reverantly invoke and confidently expect the favor and help of Almight God--that He will give to me wisdom, strength and fidelity, and to our people a spirit of fraternity and of love of reighteousness and peace" President Benjamin Harrison "I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the World...that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the prompting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established". Samuel Adams-American Revolutionist and signer of the Declaration of Independence "It is in men of piety and inward principle that we may expect to find the uncorrupted patriot, the useful citizen and the invincible soldier. God grant that in America true religion and civil libery my be inseparable and that the unjust attempts to destroy the one, may in the issue tend to the support and establishment of both". John Witherspoon-signer of Declaration of Independence "I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business: and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service". Benjamin Franklin "And when you have done all things, then rely upon the good providence of Almight God for success, in full confidence that without His blessings, all our efforts will inevitably fail". John Jay-1st Chief Justice of Supreme Ct. "The fundamental basis of the nations law was given to Moses on the Mount, the fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus, and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul". Harry Truman These are some quotes I picked up and there are many, many more from other greatly respected people. These are not found in any history books and the mention of it brings great ire to many people. Please believe me, you are certainly free to believe any way you want. That is your right. However, I am also free to have the faith to believe in my God. I was challenged to show any names of any of the early builders of our nation who were professing Christians and I have attempted to bring in proof of what I say. Not to try to proselyte you but to offer proof. Flame me all you want, I stand firm in my convictions and beliefs. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 533 Registered: 8-2001 |
I'm not going to blast you over your beliefs. I disagree with them, but you are certainly entitled to them. What I do disagree with you about is the assumption that we are a Christian nation. We aren't, never were, and probably won't be. We are secular and should remain that way. Oh, Oh! I am in agreement with Art on yet another issue (that makes two issues). Don't get excited Art, I have not defected to the Liberal "dark side" just yet, but have to agree with your above statement. I am a Christian but also a Libertarian and think that separation of church and state is a good thing. That being said I do see a large connection between Christianity and America and have a hard time separating the two out sometimes. The recent issues of prayer at sporting events and the pledge of allegiance have me riding the fence as I can certainly see the view of those who believe we shouldn't recite a Christian prayer at a state sponsored (read public school) event. But at the same time I am sometimes torn that those same people (ACLU) are taking aim at America just like many of the anti-war protestors who as someone else pointed out show up at every protest (Iraq, save the seals, IMF, globalization, save the trees and all that other baloney). I am not always sure that we have "full" separation of church and state but I do know we have succeeded more than any other country in the world at separating the two and allowing most if not all to practice their religion in peace. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23  | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1114 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jere: I'm not going to blast you over your beliefs. I disagree with them, but you are certainly entitled to them. What I do disagree with you about is the assumption that we are a Christian nation. We aren't, never were, and probably won't be. We are secular and should remain that way. As you can see from the debate in this thread, there are various views about religion even on a thread which I'd bet has a reasonable high intelligence average. If we are going to believe, why in the world do they insist that those who don't should have to listen to them? For the life of me I can't figure it out. If one reads a little science, it is clear that religion as this country practices it isn't true. Check some of the prior threads over this issue, i.e., science vs. religion. What what truly amazes me is this: Jews, Christians, and Muslins all worship the SAME GOD. This is three different versions of the same fairy tale, or as someone else on this site once said: "It a fight over whose invisible friend is the god". IMAO Art | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 868 Registered: 7-2002 |
did search on google george washington religion. got this article. anyway, who cares. http://www.virginiaplaces.org/religion/religiongw.html George Washington and Religion Washington gives us little in his writings to indicate his personal religious beliefs. As noted by Franklin Steiner in "The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents" (1936), Washington commented on sermons only twice. In his writings, he never referred to "Jesus Christ." He attended church rarely, and did not take communion - though Martha did, requiring the family carriage to return back to the church to get her later. When trying to arrange for workmen in 1784 at Mount Vernon, Washington made clear that he would accept "Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists." Washington wrote Lafayette in 1787, "Being no bigot myself, I am disposed to indulge the professors of Christianity in the church that road to heaven which to them shall seem the most direct, plainest, easiest and least liable to exception." Clear evidence of his personal theology is lacking, even on his deathbed when he died a "death of civility" without expressions of Christian hope. His failure to document beliefs in conventional dogma, such as a life after death, is a clue that he may not qualify as a conventional Christian. Instead, Washington may be closer to a "warm deist" than a standard Anglican in colonial Virginia. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4129 Registered: 12-2000 |
Jere, just because you say prayers and reference God doesn't make you a Christian. I'm not arguing that GW wasn't, just making the point again that God is beyond Christianity. | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 140 Registered: 7-2002 |
Geo Washington was NOT a Christian he was a Deist. he did not proscribe to the Christian teachings or philosphy. BTW, the first 19 or so US presidents were not of the Christian . | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 2655 Registered: 6-2001 |
give me a break. how many people your age do you know that are practicing christians (ie. go to church every sunday (unless you are calvinist), recieve sacrements on a regular basis and dont eat meat on fridays during lent (if you are catholic)? i can tell you i dont know too many. i agree with what bret said. Hey DES, you better start going to church because the gov't will spy on you, tap your phone, and start trying to silence you if you do not. looks like god is involved in this country's "communist, nazi,facist government." lmao | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 230 Registered: 1-2003 |
Art, I beg to differ with you on this country being founded to keep religion out of the government. If you will read carefully you will find that it was said that the government could not set a national religion such as what happened in England with the Church of England. It does not say anywhere that religion should be separate from the government. It says that we should be free to worship as we please or not to at all if that is your choice. It does not say "Freedom from religion", it says "Freedom of religion". George Washington began each morning with prayer and some of his prayers are recorded in history and show how deeply this leader felt. Of course, this is not politically correct now, so people such as yourself would probably like to see references to this stricken from any history lessons. Sorry sir, he was a very deeply committed Christian and did not hesitate to show it. Take a look around Washington at the monuments and see references to God and this nation made by other founding fathers. Yes, there were some who were non-believers but I believe if you will look closer, you will find that a great many more put much faith in a being higher than themselves. This country was founded to give you and me the freedom to worship if we wanted or not do it at all. It is our choice. It was just that the government could not tell us which, if any, way that we should believe or worship. I, for one, am glad that we have a President who believes in prayer and the power of it. Blast me if you will, but I will stand up and say I too am a Christian and I stand proud to say so. If you choose not to believe, that is your choice and I leave you to it. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4128 Registered: 12-2000 |
I like that picture Jim! Never seen that one before. | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 138 Registered: 7-2002 |
I think it was a cool piture too, but of course any flag would have had the same effect. BTW, I keep hearing the far right wing conservatives saying that this nations founding fathers were christian. Can somebody please tell me who those people were? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4127 Registered: 12-2000 |
Wow, this topic will hit a 100 in no time at all. I'm not in a bad mood, so I won't be igniting any flame wars today, although I can't guarantee anything about tomorrow.  A couple points... 1) Let's call it the 99-1 rule. I think 1% of the Christians, Muslims, and other believers give 99% of the bad name to their respective religions. Would 99% of the Christians agree with the Christians who loot and kill Muslims in Africa? Would 99% of the Muslims agree with the attackers of America on 9/11? 2) The majority of our founders were probably closer in geographical association to Christian centered religions, but in mind they beyond the narrow minded geographical limitations that even today determine virtually 100% of a persons religious association. Most of the founding fathers along with me look beyond the human environmental quotient of religion. We find the foundation common threads between all intrinsic human beliefs. You remove the human influence on any religion and the similarities are stunning. There's always a God that we feel, but we don't understand or can't explain except we know it's good. Take a human and start trying to put down the indescribable spirituality on paper in black and white text and we have the many religions of the world today that are trying to kill each other. Stop trying to humanize God and then you'll also stop trying to convince the rest of the world that your humanization of God is the true "word" (Bible, Koran, and etc.). Oh, and why do I put more energy into Ferraris than something like the above topic? Simple, Ferraris make me happy and fell good. I only do it for me, in the long run that's all you have. Much of the world population is too brain washed to ever see the light. I also don't believe humans are anything more sacred to God beyond all other life on Earth. In fact, I think humans are destroying the Earth, but we'll destroy ourselves before we complete the entire job and everything will be back in balance again. I want to enjoy MY life in the short time before I become worm food and that includes associating with loved ones, carrying on my genes, Ferraris, car racing, hunting, fishing, riding my bike, sports, and so forth. Every week I make adjustments to my life in order to enjoy it more and more. I don't know anything about God, but I sure love my time on this earth because it's a hell of a good time! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3306 Registered: 2-2001 |
And how do you think all these terrorists view the United States. Do you honestly think that Muhammed Atta viewed the U.S. as a secular nation where Muslims, Jews, and Christians are given the freedom to live together in peace? Just because I am of Christian faith doesn't mean I don't understand how the nation is founded, nor does it mean that I believe that we should included Christianity in our government. It also doesn't mean that I'm going to live in a law book like you and pretend that because our nation is free all my neighbors aren't Christians. I accept any religious faith, but I'm not going to be stupid and pretend that one faith doesn't dominate our country. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 867 Registered: 7-2002 |
Just thought it was a cool pic. Next time I will make sure all of the following symbols are accurately portrayed by the suns' rays.  | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3305 Registered: 2-2001 |
And Art, a lot of the bombast is from the students on this site, you take part in a lot more of these b.s. debate threads than anyone else. But I forgot, you are higher and smarter than anyone else so it is justified when you post endlessly in them. Still the pot calling the kettle black though no matter how you cut it. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3304 Registered: 2-2001 |
They weren't Christians, but what basic foundations were they. Much closer to Christianity than anything else, much of their foundations are still found in our country and lead to a surprisingly large amount of our laws and general morals. I agree, if someone posted a pic with something suggesting the flag was tied to Judaism or Islam I wouldn't care at all, I think the notion that the United States is as a whole a just nation is the idea to be taken from here, not to make it something it's not and turn this into some sort of religious b.s. thread. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1112 Registered: 6-2001 |
Rob & DES: A lot of the bombast is from the students on the site. I agree with Rob, we are a secular (sp) nation, but the religious among us keep putting religion into the mix. Like the old joke, "Kill a commie for Christ". We were not founded by Christians, a good many of those who signed the declaration of independance were not believers, and this nation was founded to keep the religion out of the government. Apparently those strong believers today have difficulty with that concept. Art Art | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4125 Registered: 12-2000 |
Our country was not founded by Christians. Bret, the rest I agree with you about though. No problems with anyone posting this picture, just telling you my personal opinions on it. I would hope all 99 Christians would be as understanding when 1 non Christian posted an image of the American flag and whatever religious symbol they wanted. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3303 Registered: 2-2001 |
"It's things like this that lead to hate crimes" Are you on crack? Jim posted a cool pic of the flag and some how this leads to hate crimes. Seriously, where do you get these ideas? Newsflash, who founded our country? Of what religious foundations were they... Too many people are plain old too quick to make the exception the rule nowadays, fact is most of the nation believes in Christ and if people express that it is perfectly alright. Too much bullshit nowadays about if 1 out of a 100 people doesn't believe in the cross then we shouldn't ever mention it, bring it up, etc. Clearly we have separation of church and state and freedom of religion, but to take these ideal laws further than that is ridiculous, most of the nation belongs to a form of Christianity and if Jim posts a pic which could suggestively reflect this I for one have no problem with it. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 2950 Registered: 8-2002 |
i agree with Rob- although politicians would have you believe otherwise... It's things just like this that lead to hate crimes against other religions, etc, etc, etc.- Christianity is "the norm" and everything else is "alternative" or downright "unacceptable"... Um... You know, just my two cents... | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4124 Registered: 12-2000 |
So, America and Christianity go hand in hand? Nothing wrong with America and nothing wrong with Christianity, but I disagree with any thinking and actions merging the two as they are one in the same. | ||
| Phil Bryson (Phildo)
Junior Member Username: Phildo Post Number: 98 Registered: 8-2002 |
Awesome picture Jim... | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 863 Registered: 7-2002 |
Kind of cool looking. This is a beautiful photo of a giant flag in Arizona. The photo is authentic and untouched. The picture was taken on regular Kodak 35 mm film. The person who took the picture couldn't believe the image created by the sun's rays. Nice of them to share with the world!  |