| Author |
Message |
Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member
Username: Questioner
Post Number: 263
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 3:14 pm: | |
You know, if you will read the link that I inserted earlier, you will see that this conflict has been going on for several thousand years, not just the last 50. Most people do not know that you can use the Bible to find some interesting facts on Mideast history. You do not have to be a religious person to read it for information. Most people do not know that Muslims, Jews and Christians came from the same lineage until Abraham. Only when Ishmael was born of Hagar was the separation made. Read the link. It explains the attitude of violence in the lineage from Ishmael. |
David R. (Rodsky)
New member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 2:02 pm: | |
MFZ - "50 years ago the Palestinians had their land taken away from them forcibly, therefore the Israelis started it"
You state that you are a student - I am assuming a high-school student (or lower) based on remarks like that.
Read - Jon's post. Where is the Arab world support for the Palestinians - Apart from Sadam Hussein giving money to the families of suicide bombers who in turn kill civilians. The Arab support stops at allowing them to live in their countries and providing jobs, food and shelter.
|
Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member
Username: Questioner
Post Number: 261
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 9:01 am: | |
You know, I was researching on something that I seemed to remember and came up with this. It is a biblical account of the beginnings of the split between the Muslims and the Jews. The Jews are descendents of Isaac and the Ishmaelites (Arabs, Iraqis) are descended from Ishmael. Both were sons of Abraham. I think you will find it interesting reading.
www.execulink.com/~wblank/ishmael.htm |
ross koller (Ross)
Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 948
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 4:38 am: | |
jon, heres a stab at your rhetorical question as to why the arab countries don't arm the palestinians: they don't really want that situation to resolve itself. if the palestinians no longer have a beef with the israelis (and inference the usa), then all of the 'arab street' will then wonder why they are still miserable and will turn on their own governments.
this is precisely why you have mubarak making that bonehead speech yesterday claiming there will be worse problems in the middle east post war, and that this will have spawned 100 bin ladens etc. he needs to keep the street focused to the outside, on other reasons why their economy sucks, in order to stay in power. he also has aspirations to being the representative of the middle east and wants to keep his name on the list of people the usa needs to pay attention to - so he makes inflammatory statements now and again. |
MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member
Username: Kiyoharu
Post Number: 176
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 1:11 am: | |
Howard Bloom once said that the real reason Palestinians (Arabs) fight the Jews is because they are brothers, just as Japanese and Chinese and Koreans hate each other and fight wars back then because they are brothers. He liken it to the Cain and Abel(sp?) story.
|
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 547
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 12:03 am: | |
Who decides how far is far enough in determining who "owns" the land?
There is only one determining factor in who owns what land. WAR !!! and who ends up winning. Middle East, Asia, Africa, North America, Europe, South America or where ever.
Part of the reason the Arabs are so mad about the Isreali/Palestinian fight is that the Isrealis get their support and weapons from the US and the Palestinians are left to fight with stones and bottles. At least that is my perception of things.
I have always wondered why the other Middle Eastern countries don't do the same and give the Palestinians modern weapons and money.
Maybe someone on this board who has some knowledge on the issue can answer this.
I for one think that both sides should be armed and whoever wins gets to keep the land. I know that's not the politically correct line of thinking and probably not very realisitic but the bottom line is that land belongs to those who claimed such in the victory of battle.
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
|
Mike B (Srt_mike)
Junior Member
Username: Srt_mike
Post Number: 85
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 10:17 pm: | |
Funny story..
Ariel Sharon and Yassir Arafat were meeting to discuss peace in the middle east. To break the ice, Ariel told a joke.
"Yassir, I have a good joke... one day moses was bathing in the sea, and when he emerged he discovered his clothes had been stolen. He asked some nearby children who stole his clothes and they replied 'the Palestinians did it!'".
With this, Yassir took exception and said "That's ridiculous - there were no Palestinians back then".
Ariel smiled and said "Now we have that out of the way, we can discuss peace".
Told by a friend from another board - and quite relevant to the whole argument of who "owns" that land.
Who decides how far is far enough in determining who "owns" the land? 10 years? 50 years? 100 years? Within the lifetime of people who are alive? Within recorded history? Within the timeline of the USA? I mean, who says what is right and what is wrong?
And why don't the Palestinians also want "their" land back from Syria/Jordan? Do they really want "their" land back or do they just want the JEWS land?
|
jake diamond (Rampante)
Junior Member
Username: Rampante
Post Number: 98
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 10:15 pm: | |
Craig--sort of like going to Vegas, making a monumental bet and when you loose, you ask the casino for your money back! Get Real !!
Jake |
Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member
Username: Beachbum
Post Number: 88
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 9:19 pm: | |
Mark, thanks for the reply to MFZ's comment, you beat me to it, i think the comment about the palistians land being forcably being taken from them says it all about his viewpoint, when somebody is attacking you and you defend yourself and the people trying to kill you lose territory then the defender says lets talk and we can work it out, and all the attacker can say is, no talk give us our land back, i wouldnt give them back an inch either, im probably a little older than you guys so i remember, all the Israelies wanted to do was talk, and all the palistinians would ever say is give us our land back, no talk
MFZ, you missed the point of the inspections, the inspectors werent there to hunt down the WMD, the Iraqies admitted they had them, the inspectors were there the document and witness there destuction, Sadam was playing a game of hide and seek, you could have had 10x the number of inspectors and with out the cooperation of the Iraqies they wouldnt have found anything in 10 years of looking |
Mark Lambert (Mlambert890)
Junior Member
Username: Mlambert890
Post Number: 71
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 7:40 pm: | |
Kiyoharu,
To state so simply that "50 years ago the Palestinians had their land taken away from them forcibly, therefore the Israelis started it" displays such an incomplete lack of knowledge regarding the complex history of the Middle East that I find it amazing you feel fit to comment on it. I guess it's no surprise though... Most feel comoftable just falling in line with the party-line of their chosen ideology (be it left or right) rather than attempt an objective view at history.
Some questions for you... How far back do you draw your line in determing which people belong where? Only as far as it takes to suit your particular argument? Don't you feel that the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the sweep of Brittish Imperialism had *some* effect on the current Middle East (given that it was Britain and France that redrew the map)? Where did the original Israelites originate? What *is* a "Palestinian"? In 1948, if you were to have done a survey of the people calling themselves "Palestinians", what would you have found? Do you feel you can put yourself in the shoes of world leaders who, following the fall of Hitler, realized that they had sat by largely clueless while 11 million people were systematically eliminated in the worst act of genocide in human history? What role has ARAB imperialism, ARAB greed and ARAB hatred and prejudice played in all of this? (and please don't tell me it's all the fault of the "Johnny come Latelies" from Europe who could barely work metal until after the fall of Rome)
Yep... "the Palestinians had their land taken away from them 50 years ago so the Jews started it". That really sums up 2500 years of a bloody history REAL well... |
Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member
Username: Questioner
Post Number: 259
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 5:23 pm: | |
Randall,
I had several friends who were stationed in Charleston at the Sub facility. Man, did those guys know how to party when they got home off a cruise. I could not keep up. We were homeported there and off-loaded missiles at the station upriver from the subs. I never knew a nuke sub was so big until we tied up next to them. Massive boats. |
Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member
Username: Questioner
Post Number: 258
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 5:20 pm: | |
I was there for tours 2 and 3. Had some very intersting times. |
Randall (Randall)
Junior Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 240
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 5:19 pm: | |
I never said I disagreed with all the Navy's policies. I just don't agree with the deicision making on Iraq, which didn't rest on the Navy, but rather the president. I feel there wasn't enough proof given to warrant killing a bunch of people.
I just rotated to shore, I am sub designated, nuke qualified. I feel there isn't another job in the Navy I'd rather do, I like my work and the people I work with. |
jake diamond (Rampante)
Junior Member
Username: Rampante
Post Number: 97
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 5:03 pm: | |
Jere-- Very interesting and nice site about the USS Wainwright. I looked through the Vietnam tours (I,II,III); sad to read all the information on those that were lost during those years.
Jake |
Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member
Username: Questioner
Post Number: 257
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 4:02 pm: | |
Randall,
I am not trying to confront you personally. I told you what I did while I was in the Navy and in an earlier post even the last ship I served on (USS Wainwright CLG 28). At the time of her decommissioning in 1999 she was the most decorated surface ship in the Atlantic Fleet. You may find out more about her by going to www.usswainwright.org.
As I said, I was a Radarman (RD then, OS now) and served in CIC in air intercept control and flight operations along with helping in surface operations in peacetime. I see no harm in disclosing what your rating is or even if you are serving shore or shipboard duty. I did not ask you to disclose your duty station or even the name of your ship, only what kind of ship it is if you are serving on one. That is not disclosing much about your work.
Apparently you are not proud of your ship or duty station or your rating. What is so hard about saying I am a Radioman, or a Gunners Mate, or a Boilerman, or a Boatswains Mate or an officer?? All are important to the overall success of the team. Signalman, Ships Steward, ,Quartermaster, or one of the many other ratings. Why do you not want to say? You speak of being in the Navy and have it posted on your info page as being your work but you are not proud of it??? I don't understand. Why do you stay in if you disagree with all its policies?
I guess you just have me confused here. I was proud of my shipmates who served with me and still am. I was always proud to tell of the ship served on and her proud accomplishments and am always willing to speak of her and my old buddies. Even when we came back from Viet Nam to jeers, I was proud to hold my head up and say "I went and served my country and did my duty". I feel if anyone were to come and ask me about defending my country and fellow countrymen I could very honestly say that is what I did it for. Not for the President or his plan, but for my country and everyone who was back home. Maybe I am just old fashioned and patriotic but I believe if you wear the uniform of the US Military, you should wear it proudly and be glad to proclaim it. If you cannot do that, take it off and walk away from it. |
Randall (Randall)
Junior Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 239
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 3:04 pm: | |
Jere-
As I do not post all the details about my work. I'll tell you that I'm not a MS, FT, ET, ST or TM. |
Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member
Username: Questioner
Post Number: 255
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 8:26 am: | |
Randall,
Sorry, I do not post my address to the internet. Do you? Why do you want it anyway? Does my address have anything to do with this discussion? I think not. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 1177
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 7:49 pm: | |
Randall:
You're wasting your time.
Art |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 1176
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 7:48 pm: | |
Tommy:
The Brits after the Germans were taken care of by the Russians. Who knows? But for sure, if you look at history, the Russians bore the brunt of Germany's war effort, but in a way it serves them right: they were Germany's allies when they divied up Poland, and in my humble opinion, they got exactly what they deserved when their allies, the Germans decided that they could use a little more territory to the East.
However the Russians would have had a far more difficult time without out sale or loan of arms to them.
Art |
Randall (Randall)
Junior Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 228
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 2:15 pm: | |
Jere,
What's your full name and address? |
Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member
Username: Questioner
Post Number: 251
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 12:07 pm: | |
Randall,
I served in the Navy during Viet Nam and served two tours there. I did not like Lyndon Johnson and many of his actions and decisions. However, when our deployment orders came, I went and did my job to the VERY best of my abilities.
If you were to receive deployment orders today to go and participate alongside the coalition troops would you go and do your very best or would you bellyache about our purposes in being there? I just want to know. If you are preserving my freedom and protecting me, can I trust you to really do it?
What is your rating and on what kind of ship are you deployed? Or are you on shore duty? And please do not say you are a yeoman (desk clerk/paper pusher/secretary). I was a radarman, served in CIC (combat information center) and ran air-intercept control opertions directing our planes off the carriers into strikes over North Viet Nam and back. I am just curious as I am sure some of the others are in just how involved you are in protecting this country and wearing the uniform you do. |
Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member
Username: Nebulaclass
Post Number: 307
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 11:46 pm: | |
I don't answer questions?
How so?
I'm just not going to give you the satifaction of baiting me into a defense of my 4 years of honorable service or whether or not I'm jealous of the Ferrari owners on the board.
Ask whatever you want! Go for it! |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member
Username: Vwalfa4re
Post Number: 996
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 10:25 pm: | |
Art, If we hadn't entered the war, who would have beat the Japs? |
Randall (Randall)
Junior Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 220
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 7:00 pm: | |
Why did you get out? OTH discharge? Psychological reasons? Bad conduct discharge? You come on here and show anger toward everyone and you continue to show your ignorance in every discussion, but you never answer anyones questions. All you do is slander others because of their success. |
Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member
Username: Nebulaclass
Post Number: 306
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 6:42 pm: | |
Randall, PLEASE don't tell me that you are honestly trying to bait me with the "jealousy" or "quitting the Corps" route.
If you sincerely believe either of those two things, then you are more pathetic than I thought. I have honestly heard more effective insults hurled between fourth graders.
If you are simply trying to bait me, then again, you are more pathetic than I thought.
Whichever one it is, neither of them are even remotely close to deserving a response.
Have a nice day! |
Randall (Randall)
Junior Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 215
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 12:28 am: | |
Nebula,
You don't understand. Maybe as a grunt or a meat puppet you should be a yes man, but the rest of us don't give up our right to think. The only thing we sacrifice is the right to protest in uniform. There has been many messages sent out to the members of my copmmand, and they all said "you're welcome to participate in the protests, but not in uniform and if you choose to make a statement you can't use your rank or position in the statement."
It seems the bottom line with you is always jealousy. You're jealous about the items others on this group own that you can't afford, or you're jealous that I can succeed in the militay when you couldn't. And you satisfy that jealousy by insults and slander.
By the way, you never metioned why you quit, where did all your patriotism go? |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 1153
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 6:35 pm: | |
Craig:
Not exactly true, we had broken their codes and knew what they were up to by their transmissions. We also had pictures of the camps, including the stacks of bodies, and testimony from some lucky escapees. Pre Pearl Harbor, this country didn't want (at least the people) to get into a war, we were getting paid well as a supplier of arms to the Brits and the Russians. As to those who believe that we (the US) saved Europe, I suggest you read a little history about the Russians. I firmly believe that even if we hadn't entered the war, the Russians would have ultimately beaten Hitler. Remember that the Russians had already turned Hitler back, before a single USA troop had hit Europe. They lost about 3 - 4 millions military casualties in that war. Brits wouldn't have been speaking German, but maybe Russian.
Art |
Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member
Username: Nebulaclass
Post Number: 302
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 6:30 pm: | |
You don't understand, Randall.
You, as an agent of our defense system, need to be a YES man. Unless you are wearing four or more stars on your sleeve, you need to SHUT UP AND DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD. Yeah, long-hair stinky hippies might have the right to sit and protest, but YOU DO NOT. You are DEFENDING THIS COUNTRY, and you are PAID TO DEFEND IT, not sit and question it's every move.
If you want to sit back and critize the US, call the government liars, and buy Saddam's word over the President, your COMMANDER IN CHIEF, then you need to take that uniform off.
Art can sit and critize all he wants, and guess what? I couldn't CARE LESS, because Art, his F355, and his gas-hog airplane has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER ON MY LIFE.
You, on the other hand, are part of the TEAM THAT DEFENDS OUR BORDERS. You DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to protest out actions. If you desire the right to openly criticize and protest, you need to cut your enlistment short and take that uniform off. Everyone in the service recognizes that fact thatthey cut their own rights short in order to keep those freedoms available to the masses. Everyone but you, that is.
You are a disgrace to the service. As a citizen, you have every right to question the US's moves, but as a servicemember, YOU BACK WHAT OUR PRESIDENT SAYS. Anything else is betrayal.
Period.
And don't give me that sh!t about questioning unlawful orders. We aren't talking about that. We are talking about action that is apporved by 55% - 65% of the US population, not some hit and run strike against a Vietnamese village.
|
Randall (Randall)
Junior Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 213
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 4:51 pm: | |
"they teach there children to die for there cause while we honor those that make the ultimate sacrafice, we teach its better to live for your cause than to die for it"
I believe that in the bible it says to preach the good word. Even if you die doing it (such as the crusade or the fools that go to countries where christianity isn't welcome) it's a gauranteed ticket to heaven.
And aren't we sending people over to die for the cause right now? |
MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member
Username: Kiyoharu
Post Number: 155
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 1:18 pm: | |
"yeah, you guys are right, Bush just wasnt patient enough, i guess 12 years of games and patience is just not enough time,"
Wrong, there was at most only 4 years when there were no inspections. And they found nothing hugely incriminating each time there was inspections. The 12 years of the US or UN doing nothing is one of the biggest myth ever.
"lets not forget the fact that the only reason inspectors were back in iraq was because the US troops were being moved back to the area,"
The inspectors came back before the US sent the rest of the 200k troops, the original number of troops were already there as a side effect of the 1991 Gulf War. And last time I remember it, it was the US ordering the inspectors to go out of Iraq after Iraq complained that the inspectors were actually spying on them instead of doing their specified job, which is inspecting and destroying WMDs.
"what are we supposed to do leave 200k troops there indefinetly to make sure Sadam doesnt kick out the inspectors"
See my last answer, the inspectors were told to leave by the US, not the Iraqis. The inspectors were not kicked out, but withdrawn by the U.S. in order for the bombing to commence. However, there were many reports from U.S. newspapers that CIA engineers were working amongst the UN inspection team.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,208440,00.html has this to say, "According to yesterday's report, Unscom technicians occasionally noted "burst transmissions" but were unable to identify their source. But an Iranian spy in Baghdad was more successful and signalled back to Tehran a message saying that the US was running an electronic espionage operation within Unscom.
British intelligence intercepted the Iranian message, but when it asked the US National Security Agency for an explanation in May 1997, the NSA gave none."We don't tell the British everything, even if they are our closest intelligence ally," the Post quoted one US official as saying."
Poor Brits, no wonder they were mistakenly shot at by the US recently.
"and lets not forget those evil israelies, those evil people who have been attacked over and over and who are moving into the peace loving palistian neighborhoods just to kill inocent women and children, the peace loving palistians who were dancing in the streets after 911 and chanting for Sadam to use chemical weapons on israel, these are the people israel is supposed to live in peace with "
Well, it's the Israelis who started it first, so you can't expect the Palestinians to stay quite forever, it's been more than 50 years since they had their land forcibly taken from them. Those videos of Palestinians dancing in the streets was from a dubious source, I might add.
"and when asked if they support suicide bombers and by blowing up inocent children if they go directly to heaven, they answered almost all at the same time, OH YES, they said,"
Not all Muslims think this way, Craig. Just as not all white people supports the KKK and other white supremacist groups. |
Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member
Username: Beachbum
Post Number: 82
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 12:48 pm: | |
yeah, you guys are right,
Bush just wasnt patient enough, i guess 12 years of games and patience is just not enough time, lets not forget the fact that the only reason inspectors were back in iraq was because the US troops were being moved back to the area, what are we supposed to do leave 200k troops there indefinetly to make sure Sadam doesnt kick out the inspectors,
and those missles that iraq is firering at kuwait as we speak, those missles that were destoyed by the iraqies, they were destoyed the same time they destoyed all there other WMD
and a story on the internet, well thats all the facts i need, it must be true, now wheres that internet artical about the the CIA and the Masad being behind 911
and lets not forget those evil israelies, those evil people who have been attacked over and over and who are moving into the peace loving palistian neighborhoods just to kill inocent women and children, the peace loving palistians who were dancing in the streets after 911 and chanting for Sadam to use chemical weapons on israel, these are the people israel is supposed to live in peace with
i believe this is just the beginning, the muslims teach there children to die for there cause, did you guys see 60 minutes that night when they interviewed the 4 muslim teenage girls, and when asked if they support suicide bombers and by blowing up inocent children if they go directly to heaven, they answered almost all at the same time, OH YES, they said, if thats what the muslim children in this country are being taught we can only imagine what there being taught in other counties, the next week they intviewed the girls again after they went home and talked to there parents they all said that they were wrong, the fact is the first answer was right on, that was one of the most telling moments ive ever seen on TV
you want to know the difference between them and us, they teach there children to die for there cause while we honor those that make the ultimate sacrafice, we teach its better to live for your cause than to die for it |
Randall (Randall)
Junior Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 212
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 11:44 am: | |
MFZ- the guy that calls himself the "bombmaker" is Khidir Hamza. Here's an article about him:
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2002/Khidhir-Hamza-Lies27nov02.htm
Nebula- Your childlike insight never fails to impress. Where did I say I hate the US? Also where did I say opressive? I don't think you know what patriotsm is; it definitely isn't being a "yes man". If you're so patriotic why did you quit the military? |
MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member
Username: Kiyoharu
Post Number: 153
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 10:59 am: | |
That's old news and old facts. The newest news and facts has stated that Iraq is no where near in completing a working nuclear weapons making program, much less a working nuclear program at all.
Don't take my word for it, take the IAEA (that's the International Atomic Energy Agency) which was in charge of the search for nuclear weapons in Iraq in the most recent round of inspections, which was forced to abort their mission because someone wasn't patient enough.
Mohamad El-Baradei had reported this in 2003, "... (he) said that inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) found "no evidence that Iraq has revived its nuclear weapons program since the elimination of the program in the 1990s." This assessment contradicts an assertion to the contrary made by Bush last October. Most importantly, ElBaradei suggested that inspections be allowed to continue."
"you tell em Neb, i find it sad how some people believe everything the people that despise the US say, but they question evidence from first hand experience, theres a book called Sadams Bomb Maker its writen by the X head of Sadams nuclear development agency,"
Oh you mean General Hussien Kamel, a key defector, often cited by Colin Powell and others, Saddam Hussein's son-in-law, the former director of Iraq's Military Industrialization Corporation? Well, he had stated categorically in 1995 when he defected to Jordan that "All weapons - biological, chemical, missile, nuclear were destroyed." Is this the proof that you are citing?
|
Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member
Username: Beachbum
Post Number: 81
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 10:35 am: | |
hey Art, may i remind you that befor the alies entered germany the fact that the germans were muderering millions of people were unfounded rumors |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 1149
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 10:13 am: | |
Once again unfounded rumours, etc. as the basis to kill others. Randall look at who you're arguing with. Their behavior speaks for itself.
Art |
Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member
Username: Beachbum
Post Number: 80
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 10:04 am: | |
you tell em Neb, i find it sad how some people believe everything the people that despise the US say, but they question evidence from first hand experience, theres a book called Sadams Bomb Maker its writen by the X head of Sadams nuclear development agency, in WW2 there were people that refused to believe the germans were capable of walking woman and children into gas chambers |
Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member
Username: Nebulaclass
Post Number: 301
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 1:37 am: | |
Randall,
Iraqi nuclear scientists ADMIT to building the detonation device Tierney talks about.
How on Earth can you serve, in that uniform, and hate the US so much?
Take that f*cking squid uniform off, then b!tch and moan like some 2 cent road whore about our "oppresive" governement. You don't rate the stripes on your ragged sleeve.
I woudn't doubt it if you somehow used you position in the Navy to sabotage some US lead action. You sound like that type on unpatriotic sh!thead who'd do such a thing. |
Randall (Randall)
Junior Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 210
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 1:08 am: | |
Actually, Bill Tierney said he had found definite proof of Iraq having operation nuclear weapons. He also said he knew where they were, but for some reason he couldn't show us.
There's also reports that Bill Tierney "would ask God and get a sense if something was valid or not, and then know if he needed to pursue it."
Definitely someone that I would say provides reliable intelligence.
|
MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member
Username: Kiyoharu
Post Number: 151
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 12:30 am: | |
The most recent Osama bin Laden 'message' publicly denounced Saddam Hussein for being a secular leader of an Islamic nation, and called for his resignation (sounds like what GW Bush was asking too). I'd put the links on but since people are more keen to accept personal opinion as true facts, I won't. Take that as you will.
And what the hell was a UN weapons inspector doing snooping around the country for links to terrorist organizations instead of doing his real job (finding and making sure weapons of mass destruction are destroyed)? No wonder the Iraqi government accused the previous weapons inspectors as being infiltrated by US spies, because it may be actually true! No wonder they can't find any implicating WMDs, they were busy doing something else instead of their job! |
Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member
Username: Rcallahan
Post Number: 147
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2003 - 10:58 pm: | |
Is this the same Tierney that was fired by the Pentagon for "preaching Christianity" to the people he was supposed to be interogating? |
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie
Post Number: 904
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2003 - 4:28 pm: | |
Randall is correct. What does Tierney know? He only spent years on the ground in Iraq going face to face with Saddam's guys. I'll bet those FBI guys have LOOKED at a map of Iraq on their office wall a lot longer than that!
|
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member
Username: Vwalfa4re
Post Number: 948
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2003 - 4:15 pm: | |
I think what Randall is saying is forget first hand accounts, if you don't read it off the internet, it's not true. |
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie
Post Number: 903
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2003 - 4:14 pm: | |
Tierney also worked for the government as an Arabic interpreter and did interrogation at the Guantanamo Bay prison camps so I think his credibility speaks for itself.
Also, your link goes to a NY Times sign up page. No thanks, I fill out enough forms every day.
|
Randall (Randall)
Junior Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 201
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2003 - 3:59 pm: | |
WOW... Looks like Tierney did better tha our CIA and FBI, since niether of those organizations could come up with a connection when trying.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/international/middleeast/02INTE.html
Sounds a lot like more BS propaganda. Just one guys interpretation of documents. |
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie
Post Number: 901
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2003 - 3:12 pm: | |
Last night on Coast to Coast AM radio with George Noory, they had their second lengthy interview with former UN weapons inspector Bill Tierney. He was detailing all the dirt on Saddam's regime during the past 10 years or so. George Noory asked him about difinative links between Saddam Hussein and Al Queida terrorists. Tierney relayed the following connections.
Some time ago, Spanish law enforcement authorities had been monitoring a suspected Al Queida terrorist who was frequently seen traveling to the Iraqi embassy in Spain. When they finally detained the guy, he was caught with stacks of Al Queida terrorist documents. The implication is clear. He was relaying information between Al Queida and the Iraqi government.
Tierney also stated that the Al Queida guys were not happy with Arab leaders who held high positions in other Arab governments. Apparently these Arab leaders were not enough on the side of Islamic fundamentalism to satisfy the Al Queida guys. Those Arab leader's names were listed in a terrorist manual that was captured during a raid by English police in Manchester, England.
But there was one Arab leader's name that was noticable absent: Saddam Hussein. Apparently Saddam Hussein was well liked and received approval from the Al Queida guys, as well as actual monetary assistance from Hussein's government. Tierney also mentioned that Saddam Hussein was basically a thug who had murdered his way to power. He compared Hussein to a crime boss. Hussein was the boss, and Osama Bin Laden was the hit man.
Tierney's overall take was there is no doubt whatsoever as to a link between Saddam Hussein and Al Queida terrorism and Osama Bin Laden. He seemed to also be of the opinion that Hussein should be taken care of now instead of later when he will be an even bigger threat to world security. He also gave much more information on Hussein's nuclear weapons development programs than I have heard mentioned anywhere else.
I would tend to believe a guy like Tierney who has spent the past 10 or 15 years working and dealing first hand with the people in Iraq.
His information may not be "iron clad" proof, but how much more "proof" does anybody need?
|
|