| Author | Message | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 277 Registered: 1-2003 |
You know, I started reading down from the top and got to your post before getting to Terry's. I will now go back and read his so I can get this straightened out in this overtaxed brain of mine. Too many things going on right now. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1200 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jere: Even when you get it wrong, you're still polite and reasoned. A lot of those on this site have forgotten their manners, but hopefully, when things calm down, this will get resolved. I was parodying Terry's post before mine in my post. I was making fun of his apparent lunacy in his post, by exaggerating it to the most extreme lunacy I could think so. See the last paragraph of my post. Art | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 276 Registered: 1-2003 |
Whew, had me scared. I know you think differently than me, but not that differently. Lately I have been having to do a lot of apologizing for saying something before I had the full meaning. So, allow me to offer you an apology for jumping before I looked. Now will you please pass me some salt to put on this foot that I have once again inserted in my mouth? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1199 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jere: It was supposed to be sarcastic, it wasn't for real. Art | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 273 Registered: 1-2003 |
Whoa Art, you are stepping over the line here. "Better yet, everyone that believes in God, should be eliminated". Yes, the extremists on each side are basically the ones who cause the conflict "in the name of religion". It is not the moderates. There are atheists who are just as extreme as some of the extreme Muslims and the extreme Christians and Jews. These extremeists are not the real people who they say they represent. I do not agree with the right wing extremeist Christians but I do believe in God. So now I said it. Do you want to "eliminate" me also?? How about ethnic cleansing?? Do you agree with it?? Sounds to me like you are pretty extreme yourself when you say that anyone who believes in God on the face of the Earth should be eliminated. Wow, mass murder of millions and millions and you agree with it. Man Art, you are beginning to sound really out there. I think you should examine your thinking before you start passing judgement. And no, I am not the misguided one here. I want an end to this killing and a way to live in peace. Art, you made a statement a week ago that you just do not want someone pushing his religious beliefs on you and getting in your face. I can appreciate that and am certainly not one to get up in your face and tell you that you have to believe a certain way. That is your choice. Now you tell the world that because of the way I believe, I should be eliminated??? How hypocritical can you be. "Leave me alone, don't push your beliefs on me. But because you do believe differently from me you should be eliminated". Art, think about it. You are alienating an awful lot of people here with your own radical and extreme thinking. Surely you do not really mean what you said. Surely it was said in a moment of anger. I am an American just like you. We are all in this together. I do not like some of the things our government does just as you do not. However, I am willing to step back and say "believe as you want. I do not have to share those beliefs and I would fight for the right not to be forced to believe as someone else does". Believe your way man, just do not threaten me with my elimination because I do not believe like you. Do that and you come up on the fighting side of me. I will fight for you if someone threatens to take your rights away, and I will fight you if you try to take away mine. | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 3545 Registered: 8-2002 |
MFZ Just shut up. Your beginning to sound like Jonas | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 183 Registered: 2-2003 |
"Cant say the same of the Iraqi's." What do you mean by that? Did the Iraqis ever bombed a religious site? Are you one of the many confused folks who still cannot differentiate between the Talibans/Al-Qaeda and the Iraqis? Sometimes Art, I am baffled by the answers that your compatriots dish out. Why can't they at least give out sane answers that at least doesn't sound so idiotic like some people have wrote down here? Give me Ross anytime, at least he is still rooted in reality. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1197 Registered: 6-2001 |
I think the real problem is fundamentalism on all religions. Why stop with the Muslims? Our Christian right should be eliminated, the Jewish strict orthodox should also be eliminated. Better yet, everyone that believes in god, should be eliminated. There are tens of millions of human beings that are fundamentalist Muslims. A few thousand have caused problems. Kill them all. I don't think that is sane. When I was a young boy growing up, my mother had a great line: If you don't know what you're talking about, keep your mouth shut, because everyone listening to you will think your an idiot. Art | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 3534 Registered: 8-2002 |
MFZ, How many christians and Jews blow themselves up every year in the name of God? 0 How many Muslins blow themselves up every year in the name of Allah? 19 so far THIS year. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 430 Registered: 4-2002 |
And your sure the Islamic world is not already at war with us? The extremist do the fighting.... the moderates do the funding? I'm not convinced. We have Islamic clerics in Iraq now calling for support of US troops. A war on fundamentalism and political oppression does not have to be a war on greater Islam. We dont target religious shrines or important religious sites. Cant say the same of the Iraqi's. We will not have true peace until fundamentalism and the terrorism it spawns has been eradicated. There is no way to accomplish that goal without a general pacification and disarmament of the Arab middle east "radical" Govt's. These include Saudi, Iran, Syria and perhaps others. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3358 Registered: 2-2001 |
Because the Vatican is known for organizing terrorist groups and blowing up two buildings filled with civilians, on top of the last how many years of hijackings, kidnappings, etc. | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 181 Registered: 2-2003 |
"4. Bomb the living crap out of, invade, conquer and occupy Saudi Arabia" Now that's a recipe for disaster. Do that, and the whole Islamic world will go to war against the US. Not just the extremists, but the moderate ones as well. Imagine what the Christian world would react if someone bombed the Vatican City (yes, I know, that's the Catholic Church, not all Christians are Catholics, but you get the idea). | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 429 Registered: 4-2002 |
How to proceed when the fighting in Iraq is over. Easy: 1. Rebuild infrastructure, install "democratic" puppet govt. Ensure Iraqi people have western style freedom. 2. Buildup massive US military presence in Iraq. Begin aggressive covert action against fundamentalists in Saudi, Iran and Syria. 3. Maintain US control over the Iraqi oil fields... pay market price for the oil and use the $$$ to rebuild Iraq and raise the standard of living for all Iraqi people. 4. Bomb the living crap out of, invade, conquer and occupy Saudi Arabia, then Iran then Syria. If we get too much crap out of Jordan, Turkey or Lebanon repeat as required. 5. Outlaw fundamentalists Islam. Hunt down and kill all who practice it. Treat it just like National Socialism. Root it out and destroy it anywhere it exists on the planet. 6. Gradually phase in true western democracy and freedom throughout the middle east. See the Marshal Plan and MacArthur conrolled postwar Japan for detailed instructions. 7. Establish a Palistinian homeland. Some land from Syria... some from Lebanon... some from Israel. When the borders are set: THATS IT. PERIOD. 8. Sit back and enjoy World Peace. At least until the Chinese have become powerful enough to screw it all up again. Whats going on in Iraq today is just a larger battle in the opening to mid stages of WWIII..... which began on 9/11/01. | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 178 Registered: 2-2003 |
OK, just trying to uphold my opinion that the French wasn't as bad as they seem to be during this troubling times. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 950 Registered: 3-2002 |
mfz, as i have said before, some of you reponses have been well received and i respect your ability to logically and calmly defend your beliefs. but here is a hint: not everything i post needs to be argued with for you to prove your worth. sometimes a comment is just a comment; if i have a personal opinion of the french, then let it go. it wouldn't hurt you to concede a point now and again either - all of life is give-and-take. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2180 Registered: 2-2001 |
Looks like the Syrian President wants a good Azz kicking. I'm sure the Israelis will hate that  | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 175 Registered: 2-2003 |
"nobody has been saying the french are stupid, just obstructive, pig-headed, conniving, back-stabbing etc etc." Yes, that too actually, though I can't understand how telling a friend not to go to war and waste precious lives and money is not a good thing. "moderate states can change that by volunteering to help in the reconstruction and rehabilitation of the middle east post saddam. what do you say mfz, wanna get into politics?" I think some have actually done that, and other Arab states have been doing it too, but since media bias always favors Western nations, you rarely read or hear about it. Also, sometimes helping out is misrepresented by the pro-West media again, like for example that time when several donations by a Saudi princess was said to be used to support terrorists. And the time that Saudi prince donated money to the 9/11 fund, but Giuliani refunded him his money because he came from the same country as the terrorists. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2178 Registered: 2-2001 |
Today's nuke powerplants are all Fission. Cold fusion is some pipe dream or extremely remote future things. Nuclear Fusion is different, for 1 its hot not cold, Very hot. Essentially the EU has created & harnessed an artificial star. Just a few years ago a prototype broke an important barrier in that it put out more power than it used. Fusion is still in the prototype stage but it may be 10 - 15 years before the first Fusion plants come on line. Fission splits atoms & thus leaves nuke messy nasty leftovers. Fusion on the other hand Fuses atoms together to make power with zero leftovers so its much cleaner & safer than fission | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Junior Member Username: Randall Post Number: 236 Registered: 1-2003 |
The French set up for nuclear power is amazing. If the US would have done things the way they do, people wouldn't be so scared of it in America. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 937 Registered: 3-2002 |
nobody has been saying the french are stupid, just obstructive, pig-headed, conniving, back-stabbing etc etc. williams, i think you are confusing nuclear power plants which work on the basis of fission, and the 'theory' of cold fusion. i too would love to see cold fusion become a reality, but for the moment it is pretty elusive. einstein spent 2 years pondering this problem and gave up, just to give you an idea of how hard that nut is to crack. regarding the french system, to implement that sort of thing in the usa, nearly every state would need a large nuclear power plant; whose back yard is it going to? but back on topic.....i would also add that there is probably a big slot for moderate muslim countries, if they wanted to step up to the plate. currently, rightly or wrongly, islam is associated with terrorism in everybody's mind, even muslims. moderate states can change that by volunteering to help in the reconstruction and rehabilitation of the middle east post saddam. what do you say mfz, wanna get into politics? | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 171 Registered: 2-2003 |
So the French aren't that stupid afterall? Thanks for the book recommendation Ross, I'll check it out if I can find it. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 336 Registered: 2-2001 |
- Rebuild what's left of Iraq. It's what we do. Hope for post WWII Germany/Japan results while keeping in mind that the Germans and Japanese were industrious people prior to (and post) reconstruction. - Cut bait on the Israeli/Palestinian situation. Let the UN sort it out. - Discontinue programs that prevent flies from buzzing about the heads of foreign offspring who are likely to grow to hate us. Let Darwin sort it out. Kinda Un-American and likely to bum out Sally Struthers but, as has been pointed out of late, we've been meddling in the affairs of others long enough. - Domestically, impose a moratorium on imigration/visitors/students of mid-east and/or muslim descent. Un-American to be certain, but likely effective re: stemming future terror attempts. - Carry on constructing the most innovative and effective weapons in the world and (continue to?) make missle defense systems a priority. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3328 Registered: 2-2001 |
If it was up to me I'd pave over everything east of Egypt, south of Turkey, north of the Arabian Sea, and west of Pakistan (note I wouldn't include Turkmenistan even though if falls in that area). I'd leave little holes in the pavement every so often for oil wells. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2177 Registered: 2-2001 |
energy and material resources may become scarce on Earth, They will never be scarce in space. Thats why we need a Serious space program to ensure human civilizations future and not revert to some Mad Max type nightmare in the 22nd C Bush is part of the old guard, he comes from an Oil family, he wants to keep oil sales going but that wont last forever & if we ignore it there will be H to pay for our grandchildren | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2173 Registered: 2-2001 |
If the middle east just had camels & sand instead of oil then the Saudis wouldnt have $ to casue trouble. The US & Europe wouldnt even be there and 9/11 never would have happened. Hellll The Israeli's would probably own it all then. As for alternate energy, the French get over 50% of their energy from nukes & the EU's nuclear fusion program is far beyond the US program. The US actually began fusion research but abandoned it in favor or oil & more wars, dumb | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 930 Registered: 3-2002 |
mfz, royal dutch shell is a british/dutch company with headquarters in both rotterdam and london. but they would also be seen as too connected. a book i would recommend to you is 'the prize'. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 929 Registered: 3-2002 |
william, part of the reason so many of these countries in the middle east and north africa are having the problems we suffer the results of, is that their economies are stagnant and paltry. blame it on a dozen different reasons, but one thing you can be sure of: if there wasn't a viable market for one of their major exports, namely oil, there would be even greater trouble. the symbiotic relationship actually works pretty well, when you take religion out of the equation. the search for alternative energy to oil is great, and we are actually making headway in some areas, however we are very (as in VERY) far away from being able to replace more than about 5-10pct of current oil useage within the next 10 years. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2172 Registered: 2-2001 |
Jon, Isn't politics great ? | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 545 Registered: 8-2001 |
Saudi Arabia of course has been screwing the west with their school/concentration camps where they teach children to hate the west, Nice Allies That doesn't even make the top 10 list of things they have done to screw us. Princess Haifa Al-Faisal, wife of Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi Ambassador to the United States wrote checks totaling $130,000, which allegedly went to associates of two of the 9/11 hijackers. We should be bombing SA and taking their oil since they have a direct link to 9/11 and they have a hell of a lot more oil than Iraq. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2168 Registered: 2-2001 |
cutting US support to Israel will never happen, Forcing a Palestinian state will just create new problems & new wars. Best thing to do is find a new energy source by putting Big $ into space exploration & getting out of the middle east for good. Let them have their camels & oil to themselves | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2166 Registered: 2-2001 |
Now that we've heard that Syria and Iran have been sending trrops & supplies to help Iraq, this war could easily spread if they keep this nonsense up. Saudi Arabia of course has been screwing the west with their school/concentration camps where they teach children to hate the west, Nice Allies | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2165 Registered: 2-2001 |
How about if the US begins a serious, prolonged attempt to acquire energy from nuclear fusion, solar power, geothermal, and other sources so we wean ourselves off oil & dont have to go through this again in a few more years. If we can tell the middle east to keep their oil then we will have power & peace | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 167 Registered: 2-2003 |
Wasn't Shell a Dutch company? Where did I hear it it that Shell was somehow linked to either the Brits or the Americans? 5 years sounds good too. Believe me, if the Palestinians get their state, you can kiss the suicide bombers good bye, so long as peace is respected between both parties. Yes, he is obviously biased, but I think he is one of those Americans who are 'anti-war but now that we're in it, let's keep it clean and short'. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 924 Registered: 3-2002 |
can't say i like that guy too much, and thats not where i got my ideas from. i hope you aren't blind to the obvious bias in his essay, some of it grossly exaggerated on the oil side. but anyway; we can keep the french and russians out without it hurting us, as long as we hand it to some more neutral 3rd parties. this means repsol, agip, petronas, petrobras, engen, ioc etc. 7 years may be too long. 3 may be too short. maybe 5 is best. it will take at least that long for something to actually get done; both physical and politcal rehabilitation. the force should definetely be multinational, but will have to be run by the americans otherwise it just won't get passed. the only string i would attach to the creation of palestine is zero tolerance for suicide bombers. ie if it happens, then the family of the bomber has to go to jail, or something like that. go kurdistan ! | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 960 Registered: 1-2002 |
Rename it New Texas & start pumpin' like a MOTHER! (attn. potential flamers: this is a joke) | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 161 Registered: 2-2003 |
There was a mostly similar opinion piece on Yahoo!, the link I think is here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ucru/20030326/cm_ucru/how_to_salvage_the_iraq_debacle Leaving out the French and the Russians will only add fuel to the perception that US was just in it for the money, that's just IMO Ross. 7 years is a bit too long, I'd say three years of observation (as opposed to intervention) tops. I think relocating all the troops into Iraq would not look good to the countries previously having their presence, maintaining status quo would be fine. Also, I think it's best if the troops stationed in Iraq to be of multi-nationals, not just the US or the coalition forces. Probably a UN peacekeeper-type of force. Resolving the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is always welcomed, especially with no strings attached to either side. Creating an independant Kurdish state might not go well with Turkey, but might work if all parties would agree not to aggravate each other. Overall, I think you have some good, feasible ideas Ross, all it needs is a little fine-tuning that's acceptable to everyone involved directly and indirectly. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 919 Registered: 3-2002 |
we will win this war no doubt. so all of us still debating the where/how and why we got into in the first place are wasting some brain time. how do we maximize the end result and win the peace? here are a few ideas: - we create a transparent bidding system for public works that need to be done to rebuild iraq. we openly state that the order of preference will put french, german and russian companies behind everybody else in the world, but it will put spanish, italian, polish, hungarian, etc plus i would say malaysian, indonesian, indian, south african, brazilian etc companies in the foreground. american companies don't need to worry too much since much of the hardware and technology will have to be bought from the usa anyway even if these other countries get the job. - we state a specific time period in which we will watch over the democratization process in iraq; for example 7 years. - we evacuate all our armed forces from saudi and put them in iraq, and pledge that we will pull them all out when we leave after 7 years. - we steamroll the palestinian/israeli debate and force the creation of a palestinian state within 2 years. we reduce our funding of israel by half at least, and give the other half to palestine. - we might even want to create a kurdish state in the northern tip of iraq. nobody should really object to this, but they probably will so this is a 'flexible' idea. the important thing in victory is to be humble. we have to forgive those who have gone against us recently. this may seem anathema to many of you, but it must be the way that we act in order to win the peace. |