| Author | Message | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Intermediate Member Username: Ross Post Number: 1022 Registered: 3-2002 |
jon, well said. you are right to caution our enthusiasm. never the less, the first step on the road to democracy is freedom, and iraqi freedom has been attained. part of what is going on now is the euphoria over their sudden release from bondage. when the hangover sets in and they realize that their freedom must be cherished and ensured, they will be more amenable to having normal law and order imposed. lets just hope that the time between party and hangover isn't too long..... | ||
| William Huber (Solipsist)
Member Username: Solipsist Post Number: 805 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think the same goes for McDonald's FRENCH fries. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 888 Registered: 12-2001 |
This just in: STATEMENT FROM FRENCH'S MUSTARD The makers of French's Mustard made the following recent statement: "We, at the French's Company, wish to put an end to statements that our product is manufactured in France. There is no relationship, nor has there ever been a relationship between our mustard and the country of France. Indeed, our mustard is manufactured in Rochester, NY. The only thing we have in common is that we are both yellow | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 570 Registered: 8-2001 |
Ross & Charles, Hats off to our brave troops, their families and friends. We certainly do all understand the blessings of freedom here on F-Chat no matter what our stand on the war. My postion on the war hasn't changed one bit as I still think we fried the wrong fish. Let's not forget that well over 3000 lives were lost on 9/11 and the bastards that are directly responsible are still on the loose. We need to find them and kill them. As for the dividend payoff, we will have to see if Ross is right or not and it is unlikekly that either he or myself can claim to have been right on our debate for quite some time. I am not sure that the US is better off becasue of this war. There will be major impacts economically from this war that will be apparent soon enough. You can certainly argue that the plight of the poor Iraqi people has improved but my view has always been that it was none of our business unless we were threatened or Iraq was directly repsonsible for 9/11. Nonetheless, I am happy that Saddam is apparently gone and that our troops sustained minimal casulties and were successful in winning the war. Hopefully the result of this war will be that the radical fundamentalist Muslims will be scarred off by our military might and not angered any further into staging more attacks. I am unsure what those radical idiots really think of the two regime changes we have fostered onto the Middle East. Hopefully they are scarred as hell. The last thing to remember is that while we all understand the costs and benefits of freedom here in the US and many western nations, the rest of the world may not quite understand. I spent much time in Central Europe and Russia in the early 90's and mid 90's and there was a huge difference between the idea of capitalism and freedom in Central European countries (Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, etc.) and the more hard line Communist Countries such as Russia, Albania, Romania, and others. The difference seemed to be the concept of the Rule of Law which hadn't existed in Russia since the turn of the 20th century (some would argue it has never existed there). Countries like Poland Hungary, and the Czech Republic enjoyed freedom and some degree of law before WWII so there were people still alive that understood these concepts, not so in Russia. We need to consider that much of Iraq may not understand quite how freedom works and anarchy will exist for some time until the proper insitutions arise. Unless there are certain institutions setup quickly and properly it will be a hard task economically. Iraq was an extreme form of Lenin/Stalinist type command and control centrally planned economy with no Rule of Law. What seperated the Central European countries from Russia in their initial successes was that the Rule of Law in Russia was non-existent. Collegues of mine were sent over the Russia with several pominent economists from Harvard (Sachs) to create anti-trust law. The whole idea of this was foreign to the Russians and we made the mistake of attempting to wholesale western institutions into a severely screwed up legal and economic system. Those who have never witnesses freedom will have a tough time at first grasping how it works. An example that struck me was when I asked Russian folks what they thought of some young Russian business entreprenuer driving down the street in Moscow in a 100K Mercedes. The answer was that he likely exploited honest Russians for that wealth. That same question posed in Hungary and Poland got a totally different response. Most asnwered that they aspired to be just like those who became successful after Communism collapsed and saw the opportunities fo freedom. The other factor of course was age as younger folks liked freedom/capitalism and the older folks in both regions prefered Communism. Certainly illegal wealth has been made in all the former Soviet states but much more so in Russia where all the illegally acquired wealth during Soviet times which was stolen by the corrupt Government was now transferred through "ruleless" law to a handful of crooked business people who exploited the lack of a rule of law to benefit from crooked capitalism. The wealth of Russia which was stolen from the people by a crooked government was simply transferred to many of the same people under a system of crooked capitalism. I don't think that will happen with the US involved but who knows how truely screwed up Iraq is. They haven't had an economic budget since 1973 and we don't even know at this point where the Central Banks is located or any of the money Saddam had in the country (not to mention the money he siphoned off to other countries.) It will be interesting to watch how this unfolds and if the correct institutions can be set up to allow Iraq to prosper. I think it's going to be harder than people think and I am still worred about the cost to our economy. In closing I am glad it's the fighting is over and the troops succeeded with minimal casulties. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1065 Registered: 1-2002 |
Now, THAT photo probably has an "interesting" explanation...     | ||
| William Huber (Solipsist)
Member Username: Solipsist Post Number: 803 Registered: 9-2001 |
Photo of an a$$clown  If maybe not related to this topic, but it's still funny. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1064 Registered: 1-2002 |
Tom, these a$$clowns on the left still can't get over the factthat Algore is not occupying the White House...so they will slant the news in whatever way makes the US, and Mr. Bush, look less than good. IMO, of course....  | ||
| Jesse Hoffman (Hoffmeister)
New member Username: Hoffmeister Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2002 |
Amen. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3175 Registered: 9-2001 |
can you beleive the liberal media - instead of focusing on the postive they are now saying this liberation is a problem because of the lack of police and the lack of food and water - Hello????????? while I agree a lot of work has to be done a little lawlessness and a few more weeks of food shortage is 100 times better than living under that regime. Remember lawlessness and hunger have been part of these peoples lives for years. Some people you can never please | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1062 Registered: 1-2002 |
Agreed. To FREEDOM FROM TYRANNY !!!! | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 389 Registered: 11-2002 |
I agree! Many of us have been very devided over this issue and both sides have argued thier positions strongly. We should put aside all the fuss and rejoice in the fact that we have at least one thing in common, we all understand the blessings of freedom! I would also like to say that reguardless of which side of the debate you were on please take time to honor the brave men and women that put thier lives on the line to see this through. To the Iraqi People, Welcome to the free world! | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Intermediate Member Username: Ross Post Number: 1019 Registered: 3-2002 |
invite the naysayers and doubters over for a liberation party.....and serve some fresh crow and a dessert of humble pie...... in all seriousness though, i encourage all the supporters of this war to be gracious towards those who were against it, now that the conflict has switched to focus on reconstruction and rehabilitation. it will pay dividends later. |