| Author | Message | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 445 Registered: 2-2003 |
Art, I was born in '77, so I can't say what I would have done back then. Very likely join up like I did when I was of age not too long ago. Those closest to me were also in the service. My Father medically discharged due to a broken pelvis in three while he was in and my Grandfather, now passed, retired. We killed 50k for what? If they are soldiers, the reasons are apparent. So what. We're they all civilians? Then, I'd like to know why as well and its a shame. To me, the ends justified the means. I belive that Saddam had to be removed from power, the how, the why, and the aftermath I really don't give a rats about. As I said in a previous post, our morals on this differ. We're never going to eye to eye on this issue because you believe there is a problem in justification and execution of this war, and/or the conduct of our politicians on our behalf. And I don't. I'd be stationed in Kuwait or inside Iraq if I was still in the service, make no mistake. I feel sad that I wasn't there making a difference. I would go back into the service tomorrow if I could take care of my immediate family financially. I really do miss being in uniform. Its a lot bigger difference then my vote and my voice have made as a civilian. My focus changed from serving my country to serving my family. I served my country very well, received early promotions, and was decorated as high as my rank (and politics) would allow. If the Air Force offered enough money to take care of my family and my basic survival needs, I would do it. In a heartbeat. And I'd start doing more then posting what either of us could or should do on a bulletin board. I don't have a wife and kids, but I have two parents I must look after. I can accept that financial responsibility, as much as I may or may not like it and the choices I made along my career path to make that happen. I don't claim any moral responsibility for what we did or didn't do. 50 dead, 500,000 dead, lied to or not, I like the end result and will defend it because I believe in it, no matter how immoral or amoral others view us as being, or to whom or what we did to achieve that end. Sunny | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1582 Registered: 6-2001 |
Sunny: I'll not shut up. You need to think you're way through this. We killed 50k for what? Show me the immediate threat. Just saying that the majority of Americans wanted to do this doesn't make it right. The studies done on who supports the war, show that support increased with lower IQ and education. What have you done to ensure that we stayed free? It seems that most, if not all, of those who actually were at risk, think the way I do. Those who sat on their you know whats, are the brave ones, the loud one, the ones who don't tolerate others with different opinions. Where were you in 68? Sitting on your you know what, I bet. Art | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 443 Registered: 2-2003 |
Of course the US is going to suffer for the war we started. We're going to benefit, as will others if they realize it or not, with Saddam out of power. You don't wait until Saddam is sticking his hand down your woman's dress, you do something before it gets to that point and then realize where the problem is that got you into the situation in the first place. Call it a reaction what we did in Iraq. The US and our own Civil war, the ethnic clensing that happened in Serbia, the death of millions and millions under Stalin or those under his control, the US has learned one thing and thats how its people want to be governed. We're not ruled by a dictator, no matter how beneficial or cruel, not by a Monarchy, but a Democracy. All means to the same ends. You have a people who, regardless of politics or religion for a moment, believed they were suffering, sometimes horribly, at the very hands of the government that was there to protect them and their way of life. Pretty ••••••, isn't it? If its 50k or 500k that were killed, be an accountant and calculate the cost and the total numbers for us, if thats what you wish. Mourn for them and point the finger. Claim is me, or others, missing the big picture. Saddam had to go and we broke his toys, took the lives of those who swore to protect him and those others in power, and gave the people a choice to elect a new dictator more mallable by the people or to choose another form of government they believe will advance them in the direction they choose. To some people, YOU CAN'T PUT A PRICE ON FREEDOM. Stop offering complaints and start offering solutions, or shut the •••• up already.  What do you think countries have a military for? Even if it was 50k civilians dead, how does that more or less evil then 5 individuals or 5 million were killed? Or how many that have been killed by all the governments considered tyrannical as we appear to be? Lets give up all our nuclear weapons to other countries, if they are so ••••••• smart and know how to use them. Obviously, not. Sunny | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 392 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes I understand that. But as said, nothing wrong being patriotic. But you have to see it both ways as well, and you do that. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1580 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jonas: Make no mistake about it: I am a patriot. Where I differ with those who hold opposing views, is that I see the country as I see, and they as they see it. I think I'm right, and they have their own perspective. I think that this path is ultimately going to harm the USA, they see that differently. I think their wrong, but again a differing point of view. Art | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 390 Registered: 11-2002 |
art, thank you. It's taken me a long time finding someone seeing this the same way I do. But I'm finding it hard to discuss with people in here, because they really are patriotic (not that there's nothing wrong with that) and I'm not. So I think It's a little easier for me to see the mistakes that have been made in this war | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1579 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jim: the 50k comes in part from the 80% of the Republican guard destruction (80k total, at least 40% killed, other casualties were the regular army troops, etc.) As to the actual weapons, who knows what they were thinking. It wouldn't be the first time we've been lied to. Johnson knew that the Tonkin incident didn't happen, knew there were records, witnesses, etc. He still did it, lied straight faced and got us into a war. As to the 11k dead. I may be wrong, but I thought in our civil war, with a population of around 23 million (same as Iraq) we lost 1 million people, and killed quite a few confederates who tried to revolt. Didn't we burn down all of their agriculture, destroy their houses, and kill unarmed combatants? Jonas' comments about how the rest of the world views us is important. We rely upon trade, and we can't beat up everyone that we disagree with. I just heard that the US has withdrawn its airplanes, etc. from the Paris airshow. I remember when Carter kept our olympic team from Russia, and later they returned the favor. Wonder what Paris will do, like, refuse to lift the sanctions on Iraq? If there weren't so many dead, this could be an interesting area. Art | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1253 Registered: 7-2002 |
Not arguing here. I never heard a figure of Iraqis killed due to "how do you count them" 50K is alot, but we are digging up 11K now from 1991 killed at saddams hand. 50K of numbnut soldiers is no loss. Secondly, I have not read your article you refer to nor do I know the quotes, but if they were blatanly lying from day 1 what did they think they would say when they found no WMD's at all? Did they think it would blow over, not be noticed or that they might find them and be vindicated? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1577 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jerry: Sorry about the late reply, I've been in LA this week. As to the finding of these two trailers, there is one very important question: When were they last used, and were they part of the items which Iraq was to destroy. My concern is this: it appears that the trailers did not have any materials to make the weapons of mass destruction. Like some of the comments about having an enzo factory, this would be analogous to having that factory, but no power. Can't make the materials without the raw product. Gentlemen, if you look at yesterday USToday, there is an interesting column with the before and after quotes from our government leaders. I don't think that I have to say anything more than just ask you to compare those statements. If they were true before, we wouldn't be having this arguments. Our government was telling everyone about the great amount of sites, the great quantities, etc. Bullshit! They were lying then, and this find isn't a find, and we all know it. I heard that we killed in excess of 50,000 Iraqis this time copmbatants (probably draftees) included. That's right 50k. Was it worth it? As to those who continue to argue it was, you have my more sincere regrets. Art | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1547 Registered: 1-2002 |
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86837,00.html | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 269 Registered: 2-2003 |
This is for Sunny: Lastly, try telling Mr. Linder he's not really driving an F40 but a kit car. Through blood, sweat, money, and tears, there wasn't much of anything when he started, but its STILL a Ferrari. See the F40LM thread for details. I am there already before I posted on this topic. What Roland Linder did was buy a WRECKED Ferrari F40 and restored it, and he restored it to near F40 LM specs, as opposed to the original F40 specs. The base car (well, what's left of it) existed before as a Ferrari, he didn't simply bought a spare chassis (if they even sell one), inserted the engine he won on an ebay.com auction and bought F40 LM body panels, slapped it together and got his Ferrari. I never did call his F40 as an example of an F40 kit car. In the thread, I even congratulated him for saving the car! You must've misunderstood my original answer, IMO. I was referring to your first line, where you said "If you have every single factory part to completely build an Enzo in your garage, unassembled." As for your second line, "or you completely dismantled it and scattered the parts, do you still have an Enzo?", my question back to you would be, if you had an Enzo, why the heck would you dismantle it and then reassemble it? Even when doing an engine rebuild, you don't have to disassemble everything else on the car, do you? | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 379 Registered: 11-2002 |
That doesn't surprise me. He's a cruel and psyco individual. Better dead than alive. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1242 Registered: 7-2002 |
headlines from cnn.com Good thing Bush doens't do this to his protestors...... The head of an Iraqi forensic team said today he expects to find as many as 11,000 bodies buried at a mass grave at Mahawil, about 55 miles from Baghdad. The dead are believed to be mostly Iraqis killed during an uprising against Saddam Hussein following the 1991 Gulf War. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1241 Registered: 7-2002 |
Saddam, Bin Laden and others don't want to disarm us, they want us gone, dust in the wind. We are not leveling countries simply because we dispise them. Even when we do go in we pay $$ to rebuild them and get them on the right track. Yes it has a US agenda, but it is usually better than being ruled by a cruel, greedy dictator and eating tree roots for dinner. Saddam never attacked us because he is not stupid. for one he didn't have the capabilities, the navy, the jets the infrastructure. However, if he had 1 nuke he could pack that on a camel and we would never see it coming. BOOM! NYC is gone or Washington. Then what? Do we say "Golly Gee Saddam, you really snuck that one by us!" If you really wanted to follow your logic to the end then the US should want to march on France because they didn't agree with us and support us so they must be a threat and "disarmed". When in fact all we really want is the revenues from the cheese and wine industry. Why aren't we doing that? Because we don't want to rule the world. France is stable and doing the right thing. THey just pissed us off by not supporting us, but wanting to reap the rewards. Did we blow France up because we can? No. I agree we do speak out of both sides of our mouth and it is a double standard, but it comes with the territory I guess. | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 376 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dave, I'm not saying that the US can not interfere? (dunno if it's spelled correctly) But other countries think like that to. Wanting to protect their citizens. Iraq is not one of those countries - But France and N. Korea is. And they are surely just as afraid of your weapons is you are theirs. As the only superpower, it's not good that you ar desarming all others having weapons that can do damage. Cuz' then you will be the SUPREME-MONSTER-MEGA-POWER. And then really isn't fair to the rest of the world? - Cuz' then what prevents a future president in taking over the world (wild theory, but can happen)? | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 375 Registered: 11-2002 |
Exactly Jim. I agree with you on some parts. But you say that some of the countries will destroy you as soon as they can. So why havent they? Now, when you are vulnerable? Or at least to some degree? - Because words is not action. And this is also the case with Saddam. He has sworn to destroy the US alot of times, but has never made a move. And then suddenly the US feels threatened and attacks. I'm trying to see this both ways. If it was another country, feeling threatned by you. And I'm pretty sure some countries are. Then they should be allowed to desarm you, like you are desarming them? | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1544 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, you're right--the American way is not the only way. No argument there. However, like ALL countries, we have to do what is necessary to protect our citizens & way of life. And, as the only remaining superpower, we are also probably the world's biggest target due to jealousy, anger, and ignorance. So, like it or not, sometimes we may be perceived as throwing our weight around by our hypersensitive Eurpoean allies, when in fact we are just doing what we think best to protect our country from the dangers all around. Remember 9/11/01? Do yourecall any othe rcountry being attacked by cold blooded murderous cowards that day? Thought not. So perhaps Eurpoeans should take a breath, be thankful to the US for saving them from the Nazis, and realize that, without a strong (some might say arrogant) US, they will have NO ONE to save their bacon from the next despot in the future. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1239 Registered: 7-2002 |
I think what you might be overlooking is the fact that the US has plenty of war power, but we don't just go blow the hell out of some country because it is Tuesday and we feel like it. Some of these rogue contries have said they will destroy us as soon as they can. Now do you feel comfy letting them have a bucket of gasoline and a match? I don't. Also, you Europeans have a fat cat life because the US doesn't take •••• from anybody. If we aren't here then neither are you or at least eventually. Your economy, your way of life would change. No country can be self contained. Your capitalistic economy will send you outside your borders for cheap labor, cheap parts and resources to make a profit. With money comes control, compromise and corruption. Eventually the web gets really big and complex and you have our current global economy. What is the correct course of action? Inaction? | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 3982 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ok, call me crazy, but Jonas is A-OK in my book... i'm in full agreement with that statement... | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 374 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, I thought about the movie when I wrote it. Gone in Sixty seconds, with Nic Cage and Angelina Jolie. (A favourite movie of mine.) | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 3981 Registered: 8-2002 |
That reminds me of a line from a movie: "i said fifty cahs... Not fohty nine 'n a 'alf" Can anyone tell me what movie that was from...? (i did my best with the quote to indicate that the person had an accent.) | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 373 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sunny, no I don't. But then why should the US be the only country allowed to disarm others ? I'm pretty sure Bush would declare any country trying to desarm you, war. With all due respect and no offense. But you americans should try to see it from both sides, instead only from one. The American way isn't always the right one. | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 435 Registered: 2-2003 |
Disarming everyone but themselves? Yeah, the smell of VX in the morning really gets me going better then coffee. Ever heard of Start II and Start III? What do you expect us to do, dismantle every single WMD in hopes that India and Pakistan, North Korea and China will do the same thing unless we all do it together? Thanks, Hans, for clarifying that because there's no slapped together WMD ready to launch, there either war leftovers (illegal nonetheless) or no threat and we should go home. Sunny | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 372 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm only 18, I do not have that much historic knowledge. So I enjoy discussing it with someone who has it to some degree. But I just can't understand the american way of thinking. Desarm everyone who has weapons that can destroy us. If N. Korea felt threatened by the hostile Americans (As the US is very hostile these days agains SA, N. Korea and France) and wanted to desarm the US. Would you let them? - If some country felt threatened by the US, then they should be allowed to desarm you as well? Everyone is equal? Seems not in your opinion. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1543 Registered: 1-2002 |
Take your argument to the UN, Jonas. The US was enforcing multiple UN sanctions, AS WELL AS THE TREATY IRAQ SIGNED THAT EQUATED THE WEAPONS WITH THEIR FACTORIES. Sorry Jonas. You can't play your moral equivalence European appeasement game now after the fact. And what is wrong with disarming those who have VOWED to destroy the US, before hostilities commence? This is a fine European tradition (read your history books, Jonas)!!! | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 371 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sorry, I read UN as US. Still, that isn't right. It is not considered equally bad. Theres a very big difference between having 15 year old buildings, and having real WMD lying around. | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 370 Registered: 11-2002 |
How can the US make that descision? - If the US thinks we have weapons, is we to be attacked next? - Iran, SA, N. Korea, France and others also have WMD are they gonna be next? Over here in Europe, it seems like the americans is trying to "take out" all the country's that actually could do some damage to them if there should be war. I know this is a wild theory, but the US is slowly desarming everyone, EXCEPT themselves. I don't think the US have the right to make a descision like this, that a factory is enough. How eould the US feel about this, if the rest of the world said that about your facility's. I know the american's are very patriotic, but some of you must give me right man. Something is wrong when the US suddenly have "authority" to make that kind of choice over here in europe. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1540 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, you are wrong. In the eyes of the UN, having the factory is just as bad as having their products. In fact, they are equal, and equally banned. | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 369 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sunny, I didn't say that Saddam hadden't HAD bio weapons. It's a fact that he used them 10 years ago. But that doesn't mean he have them now. The facility's he used to produce them back then could easily be the ones that have been found. I'm not protecting Saddam at all, don't misunderstand me. But I'm sure not supporting the US either. As said before, I simply don't think he has produced any WMD after the war against Kuwait. That's the reason why it hasn't been found by the US nor the UN. The US just want's him dead (and some of the oil I think) 48 Cars ain't 50 Cars War Factory's ain't WMD | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 434 Registered: 2-2003 |
So buying, dismantling, and/or hiding the parts for a bio or nuclear weapon means Saddam never had one, then? He never put them together or buy one complete from someone else, so there's no threat of WMD at all from Iraq then. North Korea isn't processing spent rods because they have extra money and resources or its going to help the environment. They're building a nuclear gift package for America (or another country) with a note that says from North Korea, with love. Iraq never invaded Kuwait, they just created a new border further south. Lastly, try telling Mr. Linder he's not really driving an F40 but a kit car. Through blood, sweat, money, and tears, there wasn't much of anything when he started, but its STILL a Ferrari. See the F40LM thread for details. | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 267 Registered: 2-2003 |
If you have every single factory part to completely build an Enzo in your garage, unassembled, or you completely dismantled it and scattered the parts, do you still have an Enzo? Just because its not in the form you would expect, doesn't mean you don't have one. No, you only have parts to an Enzo, but not the Enzo itself. Isn't this what the majority of Ferraristis would agree upon? You can't build a Ferrari from spare parts, it wouldn't be 'authentic' or whatever you'd call it. A real Ferrari was one that came out of the factory in Maranello in ready to use condition, what happens then (rebuilt by Michelotto or ProDrive for racing/crashed and then restored by a restorer/left to rot in a barn before someone found it and restored it 30 years later) is irrelevant, it's still originally a Ferrari. But if you buy parts to a Ferrari and build it part by part, it wouldn't be a Ferrari, it would be a kit car or such. | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 428 Registered: 2-2003 |
You don't put on a condom unless your going to ••••. You don't build bio weapons labs to raise real estate values, or hide them because there legal, or produce medication to help your citizens. Or deny having them at all. If you have every single factory part to completely build an Enzo in your garage, unassembled, or you completely dismantled it and scattered the parts, do you still have an Enzo? Just because its not in the form you would expect, doesn't mean you don't have one. Sunny | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 368 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dave, don't misunderstand me. I can honestly say, I don't know much about american politics. But I can still have my opionion about Bush. And I don't consider to mobile labs as WMD. Nor a factory. When the US have Nuclear bombs or 70 containers with Chemical weapons, I will back down. Cuz' thats WMD. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 3974 Registered: 8-2002 |
Still, you have to give him credit for a term like 'war-horny'... i'll use that one forever... i think i'm thinner, now, too, 'cause i laughed my ass clear off when i read that... "war-horny"... LOL...! Jonas, fair is fair, you get points in my book for that one... | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 507 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>>Well, hold on to your Gammeldansk Cheers! Nothing wrong with some Old Danish! :-D JH | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 504 Registered: 2-2002 |
 | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1531 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, with all due respect, you know as much about US politics & our leaders (including our president) as Americans do about Danish politics & your leader. Best to comment about what you know, rather than flaming a guy & his dad you know nothing about but personally dislike. And let me see if I can understand this: you READILY believe the BBC quoting the Washington Post, and some unknown interview alleging that the US rented 7 Exxon oil tankers (under the category of "so what"", what does that prove, Jonas??)? And now you claim you were "right" about no WMD? Well, hold on to your Gammeldansk, Jonas, 'cause you just might have to eat your words & some humble pie. The US has found 2 mobile bioweapons labs SO FAR; these were just as illegal under the treaties Iraq signed as the materials they produced. So I guess that makes you WRONG. Just as we predicted. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 506 Registered: 4-2003 |
Oh well... this world is going mad anyway.... The best golfer is a black guy The best rapper is a white guy France is accusing the USA of arrogance and Germany doesn't want to go to war... Sic! Jack | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 366 Registered: 11-2002 |
I told you sooo = Can't remember who I had the discussion with, but I got pretty flamed for my oppionions. Looks like I were right. None the less, Saddam was to be removed. But as said before, US made the wrong choice in how to do it. There's something else behind this than WMD. I saw an interview somewhere, where they had prove that the USA had leased 7 big oiltankers from the company Exxon that was to sail to Iraq. The gouvnerment had "No comment" to the discovery. I really can't stand Bush. He is very war-horny and powersick like his dad (Not to offend any of you americans) Looks more like a personal vendetta. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1115 Registered: 5-2002 |
In the words of Mr. Spock, "To deny the facts would be illogical." I still think they are nuts for have a valve system that depends on fragile belts, but since that IS the way they do it, to deny their fragility is dancing with disaster. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4595 Registered: 5-2001 |
Arlie, so you agree that timing belts have to be changed? That is contrary to your previous opinion that Ferrari is nuts for asking to have them changed all the time. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1217 Registered: 7-2002 |
I think everybody agrees that Saddam and his types need to go. The problem is that the US is or may be just picking targets with no checks and balances. If there weren't any current WMD's then we just decided it was time for Saddam to depart us which is fine with me, but where do you or I draw the line? What if I had disagreed? What could I have done to prevent it? Protest? I wish we could or would just clean up the whole region, but at what cost and what if that cost affects me/you personally? | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 675 Registered: 7-2001 |
Abso f***ing lutely Randall. Either that or they were not ready in time to use them. If you believe there were none there then you have your head in the sand. So what if we don't find any...isn't the fact that Saddam was torturing, murdering and stealing from his people reason enough? Or were those stories (told by the Iraqis themselves) fabricated? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1114 Registered: 5-2002 |
Assuming for the sake of argument that there were NO stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, would you naysayers be HAPPIER if we had allowed them to build up their stockpiles? That's like saying, "My 308 Ferrari timing belts are fine. I see no evidence whatsoever of timing problems or imminent destruction of my engine even though my car is 20 years old and is still running on the original timing belts. I see no proof whatsoever of oncoming destruction and anyone who would take measures to anticipate such destruction is out of line." | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 441 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jerry, You don't seriously think they didn't have a chance to use them, do you? I don't think we will ever find the weapons they were accused of having before the war. Our government has already made excuses for why they won't be found, so it appears they're giving up hope on finding them also. Prior to the war it was stated that Iraq had millions of liters of chem/bio weapons. A tanker trailer holds about 28,000 liters. If they had 2 million liters, that's about 70 trailers. We should have noticed if that was all destroyed or shipped somewhere. | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 674 Registered: 7-2001 |
Art, according to this morning's news, it looks like they may have found the WMD (again their overall importance escapes me), and I do understand the entire situation perfectly, thank you. The WMD are there or WERE there I'm absolutely convinced of that. Look what the Iraqi leadership did to all those Serbs in the early 90's with the biological weapons. So obviously these weapons exist...period. They used these inhumane torturous techniques on people that were their own flesh and blood, so do you actually think that they would not use something like this again on their own people or on a foe they despise that is invading their home land? They did not GET A CHANCE to use them or the people that were given the orders to use them dis-obeyed them. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1504 Registered: 1-2002 |
He's not in Baghdad, Art. If he is even alive. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1571 Registered: 6-2001 |
Dave: Time will indeed tell. I haven't seen this retracted however, and its been a day or two. This is the sort of thing that had it been false, would have either disappeared or would have been retracted. What concerns me the most about this, is that we've heard all these stories about Iraq, about how their citizens would have done this and that, and how we've been welcomed. I now start to wonder how true these things are, and if those statements later prove untrue, how much further death and destruction will follow. I do wish to point out, that although we are in control of Iraq, that allegedly the population is welcoming us with open arms, hated Saddam, he is still living in Baghdad, and no one is telling us where he is, or at least hasn't for the last 30 days or so. I'm not all that smart, but it seems to me that the above quoted facts just don't add up. You tell me: what is wrong with that picture? Art | ||
| Drstranglove (Drstranglove)
Member Username: Drstranglove Post Number: 284 Registered: 4-2003 |
I noticed that too. He also worked with the reporter that PhotoShoped the pics of the Marine holding a gun to a womans head. DrS | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3600 Registered: 9-2001 |
apparently the guy reporting this was the one recently resigning from the NYT for fabicating 30 or 40s stories | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1497 Registered: 1-2002 |
Art, do you REALLY put much credence in the BBC quoting the Washington Post? Since when is one media outlet quoting another a reliable source of true info??? Both have a long track record of opposing Bush no matter what the policy. And neither can be called a credible source for the WMD search. Now that we have Dr. Germ in custody, I suggest you give it a few more weeks, OK? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4831 Registered: 12-2000 |
I'm not too unhappy with the outcome, except we look like more of an ass to the world than we already did before. In the end I don't care too much, America is a great place and most of this is derived from jealousy. Very similar to how the vette, viper, and lambo crowd will take any opportunity to pop one off at the Ferrari folks. It's part of the price of being #1. Is my confidence in the intelligence, organization, and administration of the U.S.A. very high right now? No. Where is Bin Laden? Where is Sadham and his sons? Where is WMD? Where will the next terrorists strike? What is North Korea up to? What is the rest of the middle east up to? What is France and Quebec up to? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1567 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jerry: The reason this is important is that they may do it again, over different issues. We were either lied to, or our intelligence sucks. I'm terribly sorry you didn't understand the consequences of this. Art | ||
| Drstranglove (Drstranglove)
Member Username: Drstranglove Post Number: 279 Registered: 4-2003 |
All I want to know is how our oil got under their sand. DrS | ||
| Robin Overcash (Robin)
Junior Member Username: Robin Post Number: 77 Registered: 1-2003 |
I love political cartoons. Mainly because they just bash whoever's in power or whatever big current events are unfolding at the time, regardless of whether it's 'liberal' or 'conservative' in nature. Having said that, this one's pretty funny.  -R | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 128 Registered: 3-2002 |
Iraq's WMD are in Damascus. | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 439 Registered: 1-2003 |
They didn't find any WMD's, but they did finall prove a clear link between Al Qaeda and Iraq.  | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1481 Registered: 2-2001 |
Saddam is gone. That's all I care about. Next. Ernesto | ||
| Ryan550 (Ryanab)
Member Username: Ryanab Post Number: 319 Registered: 3-2002 |
No WMD???, Big surprise. . | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 669 Registered: 7-2001 |
Whether they find them or not, that evil POS and his posse had to go. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1564 Registered: 6-2001 |
It appears that the US has given up on finding these weapons. See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3018063.stm Looks like either someone lied, or made a big mistake. In 50 years after this is declassified, we'll know, I guess. Art |