| Author | Message | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 570 Registered: 11-2002 |
Art, If the car holds its own (which it should), I'll be driving quite a bit. Probably 20k miles the first year and then a little less after that and then less after that until I get my next car. The least I see myself driving the car is around twice a week. Forget concours, where the car is going to be cleaner than it left the factory and stay that way. I want something that is going to stay true by having original stuff, which can be later turned into a concours car, but in the meantime I want a very strong runner with an engine/drivetrain/transmission that will be as robust as they were when they left the factory. I could initially care less about the paint, and floor mats and such. Even the bodywork can wait, although any rust I would want fixed and I would want to treat the metal components against rust. It is not a commercial venture. I really don't see me selling the car anytime soon if at all. I love the look and the history behind the car. The only car I've ever sold was my last exotic and even that one I like to claim I never really owned since I only had it for three or four weeks. I do think that the written agreement is a great idea. Are there people who do this part for a living? I would not be familiar with the language (legal jargon) or with the car and it's components and conditionals to feel comfortable drafting something like this on my own. I do want to do the car in stages. I am not exactly a patient guy, but I do realize that patience is key in car restoration. You can't rush an artist and expect good work. So I've decided to put off certain things for later. I know it isn't the most economical way to go, but that's OK. Get her running, then worry about cosmetics. Wish we could've talked about this during the breakfast. I got there too late and the wife wanted to see the cars. She was a Lambo kind of girl until that 575M came out. You got my wife thinking now. When you said I could get the 355 since the Porsche was totaled. I asked her if she would rather have a better Porsche or a 355 "like Art's". "That's easy. 355, hands down. Only a fool would pick the Porsche." Great. Fantastic. I threw maintenance and the whole you haven't even driven them stuff at her...so maybe it'll get her mind off track and...awww f***k! Cheers | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1569 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sad story Art......have any of your friends had good experiences in life? perhaps those good experiences only involve buying new? Question Art, you may have noticed (or maybe you have'nt) that there are several (not many I'll grant you)Career Profesional Master Exotic Mechanics here that daily give away FREE expert diagnostic proceedures, techniques, tricks, advice, info to minimize the financial and down time impact of repair work...what's your opinion on this? a conspiracy to lull the masses into complacency??? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1784 Registered: 6-2001 |
Taek; It depends upon what ou're doing. Is this something that you'll want to drive? Is it something you just want to show? I know plenty of people who are capable of building a restored car. They are craftsman, and what that means, is that you can watch the grass grow while they work. That's not a knock on their skils, it just takes forever to do something right, when an 95$ job takes almost no time. If you're thinking about a concours car, and it has sat for 20 years, expect a complete rebuild, and the labor alone will be high, let alone the parts. If this isn't a commercial venture, then makes sure your budget will allow this. If it is a commercial venture, make sure that you get prices, a written agreement, and a well defined scope before your start. Make sure that the scope isn't written in rebuilder's language, and that it specifies each and every detail that is contemplated in the restoration, and that it will truly complete the car. An example of what I mean is the airplane annual inspection. As a condition of sale, a friend of mine specified that the plane needed to have a completed "new annual" (I did not advise on this one). He got that. Unfortunately, the airplane was not airworthy, but it had been inspected. Seemed it needed another 30k in repairs to be airworthy. Agreement didn't specify as a condition that the plane be airworthy after the annual. You can get caught in those sorts of language problems. Art | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1565 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here's a good on topic resto story from Tech Q&A: >>>Kevin Deal (Tube_guy) Rookie Username: Tube_guy Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 7:11 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey Andrew.... The Isetta was used on a goat ranch in Santa Barbara. It had a frame off restoration...even the steering wheel was re-done. It is really fun. It is pretty peppy. 4 speed transmission. Single cylinder BMW engine. Gets more attention than anything else I have ever had. Without peers. Especially in that color, which is Kawasaki green. A true Isetta afficianado may not approve! The day after I got it, I had huge buyers remorse. For some reason. Now I love it. They can bury me in it. << And a link to some fruitcake restoring an Italian Truck, hope he makes a bundle lol: http://www.lamborghini-talk.com/forum/messages/33/167.html?1053906999 | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Intermediate Member Username: Jay Post Number: 1332 Registered: 10-2001 |
THK it is always about the cookies! The oven is always on...it's just waiting for the dough! A car that has been sitting is usually in worse condition then one that has been driven. Seals and gaskets dry out, hoses corrode from the inside out (they look good but trust me, they need to be changed), and suspension siezes. Know what you are getting into, bring a professional! | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 559 Registered: 11-2002 |
I should really shed some light on this issue. I was referring to a car that has been "sitting" for about twenty years. Before the car was put away, it was a concours condition car that ran perfectly and all that good stuff. The collector was a gentleman who did not live in the U.S. but had his car stored here. Why someone would leave a car sitting for so long, I have absolutely no clue. Point being, he did. Now that I've located the vehicle I am at the tentative stage of presenting a reasonable offer for the car. I don't want to be a horse's ass and blurt out a lowball figure so that he'll give me the car. I believe in fair deals and that goes for both buying and selling anything. I want to do the math. See what it's going to take and then present an offer. I do think that generally a lot of people do give mechanics a bad rap for no other reason than the inherent fact that they are for the first time (mostly) investing a considerable amount of money on blind faith. Well, I just wanted to educate myself so that if someone tells me a high figure I'm not going to soil my pants. If the figure is high and there is justification for it, then so be it...that's what it takes. Nevertheless I am interested in hearing disaster stories because I'd love to learn from people's past mistakes. William H for example, had a horrid experience because he did not have a qualified eye look over his car. All your feedback is very appreciated, good or bad. Cheers | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1560 Registered: 11-2002 |
Peter, I'm no math professor however your numbers don't make any sense to me at least. How do you arrive at buy @$40K = must sell for $250K...based on your experience of one of buying @$15.5 + $22K fixing? If my math is correct or close you will have $37K into a car worth what? $30K-$35K...and so your use of the car must be worth something...unless you're trying to get rich as a used car flipper...so it looks like you are darn close to break even after restoring a $30K dollar car. Just curious about what ecomonic formula your using? | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 526 Registered: 1-2003 |
THK..I agree with JGrande. You did not state in your original thread they type of restoration car you actually wanted. My opinion is that unless you found an FCar that would sell for $250K restored and you paid $40K for it (or less), you will be so upside down, it won't be funny. I looked for two years for a 'restoration car',a '77 308 Euro. When I bought it, it ran well and was very clean. I had a major done on the engine, the gearbox is being rebuilt, new upholstery and a custom, tuned exhaust. All of this is running me about $22K on top of the $15.5K I paid for the car. In another month, I'll have a real 'cream puff'when its on the road. Ground up or doing what I did, its a bunch of bucks. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Intermediate Member Username: Jay Post Number: 1331 Registered: 10-2001 |
This is a first for me! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1558 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>My point is that the project car I was looking at buying was described as "for little time and money you'll get a great car"......but after you looked CLOSER at the vehicle you'd notice WAAAAY more rust then originally stated, bent frame, accident damage. The guy that was offering it was a crook<<< Well, in case no one explained this to you before..let me be the first....'never trust crooks'...but what your finding a crook with a car for sale and restoreing cars has to do with each other I'm at a loss to see the connection. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 939 Registered: 12-2001 |
Jay - you have the talent to do a ground up restoration I'm sure - many of us don't. My point is that the project car I was looking at buying was described as "for little time and money you'll get a great car"......but after you looked CLOSER at the vehicle you'd notice WAAAAY more rust then originally stated, bent frame, accident damage. The guy that was offering it was a crook......he picked it up cheap to try and restore (he had more experience at this than me) then realized it was going to be a long drawn out process just sucking up money at every interval. I want a projrct car - but not one that will drain my bank account and takes YEARS. WHat I want is a car that is half way there that I can slowly bring back to 100%. I passed on that car and will wait 1 maybe 2 years until I find the same make just in better shape - I'll save my cash until then cheers Nika Art - I'd trust your judgement any day - You and I know someone who's business was taking wrecked cars - quick fixing them and then selling them....many times not having all the safety back in the car ie. air bag. There is only one place in the NW that I would ever have touch my project. He's not cheap but can do a top notch job...hence why there's a GT40 in his shop | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Intermediate Member Username: Jay Post Number: 1330 Registered: 10-2001 |
JRV I agree, you have to do it for the right reasons. For example, I couldn't afford $30K Canadian for a 308 GT4 that was running, but I could afford $15K for one that needed to be put together. By the time I'm finished I'll have about another $15-20K into the car and it will be "done". I can take my time and do it in stages. Considering that almost all GT4's have been abused (or any car that is 25+ years old), they all need "everything". In otherwords that $30K car will need the same work done to it as my $15K car....the only difference is I can't drive my car right "now". There is a tremedous amount of pride and sense of accomplishment in doing a restoration. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 169 Registered: 4-2001 |
All good advise regarding restorations but isn't it in many if not most cases not a business or investment decision. I am currently restoring and seriously upgrading with modern components a 1958 Jaguar XK150 strictly for Vintage Rallying. The deal is a handshake for time and materials and I know the market value will be far less than the total cost but I will have something special I like. The best advise I got was forget about a "firm fixed price" quote and find someone you trust, decide on a "spec list" and work with them adding 25-50% to the rough estimate. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1555 Registered: 11-2002 |
Interesting thread ... I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree with the Anti-Restorers.... First off no one has a crystal ball, and no one can calculate every unknown in advance.. Seems funny/absurd that you guys can read daily about Mr. G's restoration and how much fun he is having and come out arbitrarily bashing restorations. Sounds like there is animosity in some of these statements about mistakes made and simply needing someone or something to blame. I speak with a little authority in this area having restored at least a dozen very significant Ferraris and Lamborghinis. The guys that come out whole on these deals are: #1- aren't mechanic haters #2- don't worship money as their God, but view it as a tool to get lifes wants and needs fullfilled #3- buy the car right #4- understand that restoring a trailer queen going to Monterey costs more than creating a beautiful street car #5- derive satisfaction from being part of the instrument that resurects history #6- get return on their investment by playing with their toy when finished, and aren't in it to make a fast buck. #7- Restore the right car for them, for the right reasons. Pride and accomplisment. #8- know the difference between surprises and being fleeced #9- Restos are quite easily done within certian ranges or guidelines..exact no, within a range yes, piant jobs of varying quality cost X, Trans rebuilds cost X, Engine Overhauls cost X...all come with variables of course, but those variables are easily managed by someone that knows what he's doing. And to Art...check the last Photo posted in this link, looks like the guy is grinning ear to ear to me, so your statement about restorations and unhappiness is just plain ignorant! http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/18/173778.html?1038461249 | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 742 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>>but stay away from rusty remnants of what once was a car Referring to cars like these Nika? Jack  | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 938 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ah restoration or "project" cars - when one man's headache becomes YOURS... A good shop will charge you $60 an hour and take 3 times as long as originally quoted. You will have to try and find parts...this can take time. Finding true craftsman for certain parts such as wooden dashes or leather seats is tricky. I can go on but I just finished writing an article about PROJECT CARS and will forward it to you Taek-Ho when it's published (next week) - it'll give you a good laugh. My advice is that you splurge on a restored car - leave the headaches to someone else. If you know basics get one 99% restored but stay away from rusty remnants of what once was a car. cheers Nika | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2539 Registered: 2-2001 |
JG is correct, you can save yourself $ & a big headache by buying a car thats already been restored well. What fun is it to own a car you cant drive for years ? The Lambo was 1 surprise after another. Thats why I now say you MUST have a mechanic look at a car before you buy | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Junior Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 204 Registered: 12-2002 |
Taek, I misunderstood... but I stand by what I said about the reasons to restore. Unless "restore" to you means cleaning, removing light rust, respraying, and re-upholstering, then you will NEVER come out ahead. In simple financial terms, there are tons of folks who can do the work themselves, and these folks are often willing to break even or make a little money. So unless you get the deal of a lifetime on a super-rare car, you can't get the same economies these guys can, which means you can't restore for what they can, which means they own the car for less and can sell for less and still make money, but you can't. Plain competition. You'll never come out ahead. Therefore, the ONLY times it makes sense to do a restoration is if you have some special attachment to the car, or if you can do alot of the work yourself. Are you suggesting you could scour the want-ads, find a car in need of restoration, restore it, and sell for a profit? If so, I got a bridge for sale. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 554 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mike I think you misunderstood me. The percentage figures were figures you are supposed to add to the quoted restoration cost. So if a restorer estimates the car will cost $100k to restore you should consider it $150k for 50%. I read the thread about the buying the car from parts and putting it together. That's building a car from scratch. In this restoration (remember I did say it wasn't to Glickenhaus proportions) the parts are all going to be there. Sure there are going to be a good amount that need to be replaced, but for the most part, the parts can be put to use. I also disagree with what you said about a restoration only making sense if you are heavily involved in it. I have seen a lot of financially feasible restorations done on a lot of different cars. My dad and his friends come to mind. As a worst case scenario I do understand what you are saying about having to do the entire car via parts. That is why I mentioned "realistic worst case scenario" where you can count on certain things to work or count on them to be fixable instead of a replace or no go option. Cheers | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Junior Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 203 Registered: 12-2002 |
There was a thread recently about what a car would cost if purchased in parts and I think the cost was 7 or 10 times the MSRP price. I would guess that the labor required to build a car would also be 7-10 times the cost that a manufacturer pays to assemble the vehicle. So, starting from the ground up, 10 to 15 times more than MSRP is the cost to build a car from scratch. That is about the ceiling. It depends on a lot of things, including how much needs done, who is doing it, whether you're getting new-dealer parts or knockoffs or discount parts or what not. The ONLY time a restoration makes sense is 1) You have access to tools to fabricate parts yourself 2) You can do much or most of the labor yourself 3) You have a special attachment to a specific vehicle that makes you want it restored, even given the cost 4) You want to have the pride of ownership of doing a job yourself. I can't imagine a "restoration" costing 30% only - thats WAY low. Do you think you can "restore" a $30k car for $10k? Not a chance. More likely, you would be spending a multiple of 5x the purchase price of the car. A friend's father restores cars as a hobby. He has a '57 Chevy he has WAY over $100k into. He has a pink cadillac (whatever year is the famous one) and it is in 100% MINT condition. He is into that car for well over $150k and he does a LOT of the work and fabrication himself. I have an exact copy of my very first car I paid less than $5k for. I already spent $5k on the car and I only did the interior. Mechanically it will be $5k more, and cosmetically another $5k to be perfect. I am doing some modifications which will be another $10k. I could have bought a "pretty good" one for $8k, but I will end up with a perfect one for about $30k, but, I would be LUCKY to get $10k for it afterwards. But, I will have a *perfect* example, which none of the "for sale" ones would be. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 552 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jay, I'm aware of that. I do want to go through the purchase this way purposely (so far). I have always loved to see the phoenix rise from the ashes so to speak. Also I know that if the vehicle is restored entirely I can count on next to nothing being overlooked. The closest you can get to a brand new car. Cheers | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Intermediate Member Username: Jay Post Number: 1325 Registered: 10-2001 |
It will almost always be cheaper to buy a car that someone else has restored. Most of these cars cost more to restore then they are worth, unless you buy a car for next to nothing. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 546 Registered: 11-2002 |
OK Art. In the mechanic's defense, I do think that a lot of it is because of the expectations of the person commissioning the restoration. They might be unrealistic for the amount of money they are putting up. Then again I am a true rookie in this whole field so take is as if I'm talking out of my other hole, if you know what I mean... Cheers | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1773 Registered: 6-2001 |
Taek-Ho: Lets talk about this tomorrow at the breakfast ride. It can get very complex, and most of these that get started, leave the owner with a very bad taste in their mouth. Art | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 544 Registered: 11-2002 |
I also noticed that some people charge a heck of a lot more than others. It's mostly the big names in the business. I'm not doing a restoration project of Glickenhaus magnitude here but are the big names really worth the coin? I know for sure that there are others out there equally as qualified who charge less. Also have found that CA, especially Bay Area is expensive for no other reason than expensive labor and expensive land. Nor so much the quality of the restorer. By the way, by less, I mean a LOT less. Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 543 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thanks Art. So would this be a legal document or is it something two gentlemen will sign on? Everything I own?! OK now I'm nervous. I'm thinking of doing the car in stages. Not because of budget constraints (unless it's everything I own), but because of the time. I would probably want to work out all the running gear and suspension stuff to make is streetable. I can worry about bodywork and paint later. It might be kind of cool to do stupid menial stuff by myself too. The extent of what I'll do is stuff like windows, switches (not to be confused with electrics), wipers, interior detailing or upholstery stuff etc. Nothing really mechanical if you will. Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 542 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ouch William, who did you take it to? Was that an agreed upon price the way Art is talking about or was it surprise after surprise? | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2536 Registered: 2-2001 |
My Lambo cost close to $80k over the $80k I paid for it. POS | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1772 Registered: 6-2001 |
Worse case pricing: everything you own, and the car isn't done. This is the ultimate quigmire. Get a firm price before you start in writing, and get an explanation of exactly what the descriptions mean, of what is going to be done, and what isn't covered under the quote. If you don't do the above, expect major trouble. Art | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Intermediate Member Username: Jay Post Number: 1323 Registered: 10-2001 |
Taek-Ho, it all depends on if you are doing the work yourself or sourcing it out. If you are doing it yourself you save alot in labour. It helps if you are friends with a Ferrari mechanic, because then he can help you out when you are stuck or even do the things you can't. I'm letting my mechanic put the engine in and do the valve adjustment for me, but I'm doing all the suspension, hoses and interior myself. I think the best thing to do is join a local club and get to know the people who are doing the restorations. Once you get to know them, it becomes easier to ask questions like "How much?"  | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 541 Registered: 11-2002 |
Also, doing the restoration myself is out of the question. The only thing I know what to do with a spanner is stir Tang with it (you know, the stuff astronauts drink ). I'll leave the work to the pros. I don't pretend to be a mechanic although I do know quite a bit about cars (on paper). God put good mechanics in this world for a reason you know... Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 540 Registered: 11-2002 |
...you meet someone who is undergoing a restoration? I am very interested in picking up a restoration project but am completely in the dark about pricing. I've heard from other people to take the estimate and add 30%. I've heard from others to add 50%! Well, since I am hyper anal retentive when it comes to my potential first classic car (reason I want to restore) I was wondering if it was OK to ask others who have gone through the process. Now I know that a lot depends on the car. A VW Beetle is going to be cheaper than a 250 SWB, and all. But I'm sure there are certain similarities when it comes to some marques and some parts (ie. tranny, engine, suspension, paint, etc). The 308 GT4 resto thread got me thinking about this. I'm also aware that an exact figure is impossible, but is there such a thing as realistic worst case scenario pricing? That way I know kind of what to expect and if it's lower which will most likely be the case I'll be happy about it. Cheers |