| Author | Message | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 522 Registered: 2-2003 |
For me, paying for it is more satisfying then downloading it in whatever format or compression its in. I have downloaded music and software when I was a young teenager. It was wrong then and its wrong now. Once I started working, and actually had $$$, that changed in a hurry. DVD X-Copy - what a great piece of software. I can make backups of my expensive DVDs and thrash the copies instead of the originals. I've bought about 250 CDs, some at $30-40 each due to being rare imports or from an underground label, or both, and have made about 50 compilations from what I've bought that are my favorites. For a musician, being able to log in to Kazaa and download a song so they can learn it, and play it, is a beautiful thing. Being able to pay a $1 instead of doing it for free is a small price to pay. It beats going out and buying an album they'll rarely use more then a couple times. The music biz is not like the software biz, not at all. I know someone deeply involved in the music biz. She has sooo many stories on how tough the life really is for the mega-artists. Its one enormous soap opera after another. Artists are advanced 10's to 100's of thousands of dollars, sometimes more, to produce music which covers all the expenses and is owed back to the company. This usually takes a hit to be able to pay back in full before they start actually making money off their music, and its literally a couple pennies on the album! Most of the money you pay for a CD, a healthy chunk goes to the label to keep the advertising juggernaut going and cover their operating expenses.. from lunch and taxis to talent managers, fat cat execs, bodyguards.. you name it. An artist really makes money when their contract is up with the label, when they have enough capital to go out on their own and a big enough name to sell albums without the support of a label. Thats tough to do. Contracts can be so tight/ironclad with recording labels that anything an artist does the label divides up the proceeds with little going to the artist. For the precious few that make it, they live it up for the moment and get a taste of the high life, they usually don't stock away large amounts of cash, but spend and spend and spend. On top one year, two years, five years, it can come crashing down. Its the nature of the beast. If an artist is on their own or a part of a label, one thing is certain. People flock to them and stick on like leeches, the artist suffers and when they're used up or broke, the leeches move on. They all feed the artist their ideas, tugging them in the direction they want them to go in. They have their own best interests in mind first. Its pretty rare an artist or group of artists are surrounded by really well meaning people where money is a secondary benefit or is a concern at all. Take Britney for example, its more profitable for the people around her, by far, then it is for Britney herself. She has or had such a horrible cluster of people trying to control her life, not just her music. I know a couple former Microsoft programmers and team leads in my time in the service and working there is no fun and games. Sunny | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3085 Registered: 6-2001 |
I feel higher prices will drive costs down, otherwise more stealing will occur. | ||
| Michael Koga (Ski_bum)
New member Username: Ski_bum Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2002 |
Tim, You can still be traced thru a proxy. People are not as anonymous on the Internet as they think. Big Brother is watching..... :-) | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 486 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'm all for getting music free off of Kazaa or where-ever. If the CD's only cost $8-10 then most people would buy instead of download, and the same goes for DVD's. As far as software, I always buy it. I just picked up a copy of DVD X-Copy so I can make "backups" of all my DVD's. If I burn them all I might sell off the originals on ebay. People can say all the music stealing will only drive prices higher, but higher prices will only cause more stealing. | ||
| Erich Walz (Deleteall)
Member Username: Deleteall Post Number: 325 Registered: 12-2001 |
It breaks down like this: It's not wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family. Therefore, it's not wrong to steal a lot of bread if you have a large family. And if your family doesn't like bread, but instead likes music it's okay to steal a lot of music. And if you can share that music with your friends and the rest of the world without reducing the music to your family, then that's okay too!! | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3083 Registered: 6-2001 |
I guess i should stay connected through a proxy then. | ||
| JT (Mightymagician)
New member Username: Mightymagician Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2002 |
I believe they catch you by tracing your computers IP address. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3081 Registered: 6-2001 |
Recording companies are cracking down on file sharing. At a college in the area, 3 kids were fined between 17k and 22k(i think) each. the record companies were originally seeking alot more. these people were sharing over 3000 songs each though. Someone like me only sharing 300 songs, 50 of which were ripped from CD's i own, isnt likely to get in any trouble. If i was unable to download the songs, i wouldnt buy the CDs anyway, so the record companies lost no money on me. Does anyone know how they catch you? | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 922 Registered: 8-2001 |
Taek, email my brother, [email protected] and tell him that Kenny sent you. He owns Dynamify Productions, he should be able to help you. | ||
| JT (Mightymagician)
New member Username: Mightymagician Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2002 |
Taek, I agree with you 100%. I was happy to hear that the school did some renovations, and part of that was upgrading the computer lab and software. And now being out of college and trying to start my own business, software prices dont sting as much. the licensing fees are still sky high, especially for one in the start up phase. but given the importance of the software to businesses, and the resources required to produce it, i can understand. funny thing is, I have switched and do not use AutoCAD or 3D Studio anymore. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1151 Registered: 12-2001 |
Jack, i'm not an industry mouthpiece (believe it or not) and frankly, the industry is paying now, for their failure to address the Internet boom and provide a legitimate source for singles. The Apple phenomenon is fantastic since it shows that without any real technological revolution beyond what exists already, a market for legitimate product is there, if only they "content providers" would meet it. Your complaint about mass merchandisers doesn't necessarily go to the "industry" at its core, although i agree with you. The same thing happened to book stores, and the Walmarts, etc. have impacted alot of small businesses.Of course, if most music gets delivered on line, such stores become irrelevant. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 629 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sorry about that lame attempt to hijack the thread folks. :D Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 628 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sony exec. eh? A buddy of mine just made a CD and is trying to sell it. Since I have a distribution company (not music, mind you) he wants me to distribute. How the hell do I go about this? My plastics manufacturing companies can make the CD cases, the marketing company can take care of the jackets. I have to outsource the CD burning, but I have noone to sell to. Isn't vertical integration just wonderful? Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 627 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jack, Music is does not have inelastic demand. One cannot simply have the prices be however high they want. You mentioning the bargain bin proves that. Cheers | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 910 Registered: 3-2002 |
I don't condone theft, but I do have issues with the industry. First of all, large chains like Coconuts burst into markets all over the country, and just like major airlines do in smaller markets, they undercut the independent stores, forcing them out of business. No offense, Maranello, but supply and demand doesn't apply in this situation. They set the prices however high they wish, now enjoying a local monopoly. Eventually, lack of demand will push unpopular titles into the bargain bin, but... A friend of mine is a Sony exec, and we debate this all the time. She always says that people don't understand how much money the companies invest in the talent. There's discovery, recording, promoting and touring. And for every band that hits it big, dozens fizzle out. Fine. That's true. HOWEVER, this is money they spend because they can. The "industry" has established a lavish spending pattern, and insists this is the way it must be. A friend of ours' brother is the drummer for an emerging band, and seeing the money lavished on these guys is ridiculous. The bottom line to me is, while stealing is wrong, I'm not going to go out of my way to support the industry when they don't give a s**t about the consumer. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 626 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lawyers...you gotta love 'em!  Cheers | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1150 Registered: 12-2001 |
Actually, Art, if its statutory damages in copyright that you are referring to, its up to 150k US per work infringed. Case law is muddied on whether separate tracks are separate works, but let's assume you upload 10 albums. If you get nailed for wilful infringement, that coulda been your california spider. And, given the ruling in the Grokster case, its no secret that the companies are now going after endusers. Those are, of course, the civil penalties. Every once in a while, somebody gets to go to jail. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 625 Registered: 11-2002 |
I do know some people in MSFT. As The Don mentioned, they do work long hours. During planning the pogram/project/etc managers et al work very hard. During development, the engineers bust their butts, then it's the QA folks who are under the gun, and then the release guys. The people who tend to be more comfortable are the higher ups who sit and orchestrate the whole thing. They too work hard though. Cheers | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 4962 Registered: 8-2002 |
Matt I know for a fact those guys at Microsoft work very long hours. Usually 15-18 hours on development. M | ||
| Matthew J Germane (Mjgermane)
Junior Member Username: Mjgermane Post Number: 77 Registered: 1-2003 |
Taek-Ho Kwon, Correct me if I am wrong, it seems as though Microsoft is one of the companies that is able to work resonable hours. I say this because already there are a few different builds of the upcoming windows. With that in mind it seems as though they do not have the pressure of time as other companies experience. Just an observation and I could be totally wrong. MJG | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 623 Registered: 11-2002 |
Now in the more established companies you won't see these insane hours, mind you. But they were the norm in the bubble days. I have friends who work in PayPal and EBay which are very profitable businesses but work six days a week. And I'd rather not hear that it doesn't pay off, because some companies have succeeded through brute force and a kick ass work force that would not let up. Cheers | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1813 Registered: 6-2001 |
50k per theft. 50k! That's the penalty if you get caught and they decide to make an example. Art | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 622 Registered: 11-2002 |
No. The company has not sold anything yet so they are paying engineers on borrowed money, meaning the bootstrap as much as they can. | ||
| Matthew J Germane (Mjgermane)
Junior Member Username: Mjgermane Post Number: 76 Registered: 1-2003 |
Taek-Ho Kwon, Would the software engineerings have to stay up late and sleep little becuase they did not pace themselves too well? MJG | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member Username: Dom Post Number: 182 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dave and Wm Hart, Good points. I agree that stealing is wrong, whether it is a song, or a ferrari, or a rolex. As I said earlier, I don't pirate what I think is overpriced, I just don't buy it and do without. So I don't have a rolex, or many CD's. I did buy a ferrari, but it was an old one For me, it comes down to priorities. JT: What is not a fortune for you may well be a fortune for others (See DES's post). I think Apple has the right idea. If you can buy a song for $1, then my guess is that many (though not all) will be more likely to shell out the money for a song. Matt, I belive the record companies are charging what they do because they can. Fine. If people are willing to shell out that kind of money for a CD or a DVD, then more power to them. I'm not. And it sounds like many of the general public isn't either, or piracy wouldn't be such a big problem. I'm guessing that Apple will do really well with their $1/song deal. I think they found what the people want, and will sell it to them. Dom | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 619 Registered: 11-2002 |
JT, I think that in your case the flaw is not so much in the cost of the software, but in the school expecting you to come up with this money. I've always had a problem with schools and their required textbooks or supplies. Anyway, I'm glad it helped you get your job, but you are right in saying, "I am in no way saying it is right or should be legal," because it really isn't right. Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 618 Registered: 11-2002 |
JT, About the software. I worked for a software company for a couple of years. The amount of work that goes into a lot of these programs is insane. I would see engineers stay up at crazy hours of the night for an unhealthy amount of time. Try sleeping for three hours a night for the next four months until a product is released. Then when you think you have some free time, get ready to work your butt off again for any potential fixes (patches or hotfixes) or the next version. Some worked hard and got paid accordingly through generous stock options. Others have worked hard for a chance at it and have fallen flat on their face. Having been in the trenches, that software is definitely worth the sticker on it. Also keep in mind that the equipment to develop that software is extremely expensive. Some multi processor servers cost more than some of these Ferraris you know. Cheers | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 4946 Registered: 8-2002 |
I am Dave, Peter, and Taek. It's for reasons such has this that I pay $15 for a CD now. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 4324 Registered: 8-2002 |
As an aspiring artist, i understand the importance of supporting other artists... With that said, i pirate music like there's no tomorrow... Granted, if i hear something i like, i'll go to the store and buy it, but only to support the artist, not 'cause i'm okay with adding to some CEO's swiss account; without the artists, the corporate SUCCUBI would be nothing. At $20, one cd is 1/20th of my weekly salary. In case you didn't understand that, if i go and buy 20 cds with my paycheck, then i'm cleaned out until the next paycheck. So, yeah, for me, cds are expensive. Let's not even get into DVDs... Still, i try and support artists when i can... @ $9 a pop, how enjoyable can a movie really be, especially if it winds up sucking...? Renting movies is a good idea; for half the price of the movie theater, it seems reasonable... If you really, really like something, then go buy it... i have no problem supporting artists, they're the real deal; it's the big corporations that can kiss my Kazaa... "You need to @#$% the sys..." "You need to @#$% the sys..." "You need to @#$% the sys..." "You need to @#$% the sys..." "i need to @#$% the system, i need to @#$% the sys; i need to @#$% the system, we all need to @#$% the sysTEM...!" Lyrics courtesy of System Of A Down, from the song '@#$% The System', off their last album, 'Steal This Album'. | ||
| Matthew J Germane (Mjgermane)
Junior Member Username: Mjgermane Post Number: 74 Registered: 1-2003 |
wm hart (Whart) Well put. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1147 Registered: 12-2001 |
Dom: "Free" (ie downloads from unauthorized copies) will always be cheaper than whatever the authorized producer/distributor charge. I suppose the same argument could be made about Rolex watches which, some may believe, are a total ripoff, so why not just grab one? I guess having to break the showroom window may be a deterrent, as is the prospect of becoming a sex toy for some "real" criminal in prison. Is there any other difference? I agree that the record industry has been slow to address the market for authorized Internet singles, but if an authorized source were there, do you think folks would stop downloading from "pirate" sites? This argument doesn't even seem to come close to applying to movies. Jason: you state that the only reason you aren't downloading movies is a practical one, given your internet connection. So, i guess, if you could, you would? As to wanting to benefit artists, but not the big fat corporations, that's ill-conceived. The company advances the artist the money to make the thing, spend time in the studio, clear rights, get the hot producer, etc., market and distribute. The money that comes in is then used to recoup those costs. If the company isn't there, somebody else has to cover these expenses for the artist. Do you know what it costs to make and distribute this stuff in big markets with big production values, with top sidemen, the best engineers, the hottest studios with the latest equipment, etc? (I'm not talking about the odd basement tape, made on a DAT, or using a pro-tools thing in somebodies' home studio that is then distributed on the Internet directly by the artist).Do you know what kind of advances are actually paid to big recording artists and songwriters? The real trouble with unauthorized downloading is, as you know, the big recordings by the big artists.Its not always the little guy getting hurt, although that can happen with "emerging artists" as well. But, don't fool yourself, the artists big and small are getting hurt. And, if the companies aren't making money, there is less of it for new artists, etc. Theft is theft, whether or not its rationalized as a socially correct redistribution of wealth. And, who decides that? The consumer? That's anarchy. Just don't buy the stuff if you think its a ripoff, but who has a "right" to take it for free, at a price they decide is fair? That's insane?! Think of all the poor shmucks who work in the music business who are unemployed.These are not the fatcats. The music business may just be another "big business" but that's no excuse to steal widgets either. The economics of the motion picture business are even worse, it terms of upfront costs to produce and distribute. I'm sorry, but i don't even see much room for argument here. | ||
| Drstranglove (Drstranglove)
Member Username: Drstranglove Post Number: 472 Registered: 4-2003 |
I can afford to buy the DVD. DrS | ||
| JT (Mightymagician)
New member Username: Mightymagician Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2002 |
With movies and music, leave the pirating alone and just buy it. like taek said, the stuff doesnt cost a fortune. And now Apple and eventually every other online music store will offer the download for about $1 each. so for the price of a $15 CD you can buy 15 songs that you actually like instead of 1 cd with two good songs and an hour of garbage. And with netflix you can rent dvds and kepp them as long as you want to. Software does cost a fortune, and understandably so, because if the income potential from using it. But pirating software is potentially hazardous to your computer. Most of the stuff is cracked and embedded with viruses. And i think that alot of software companies use license auditing for those that try to use it commercially. But the pricing of software can make it inaccessible to those who need to learn it. when in college, software pirating in arch. school was rampant. The cad software that we needed to learn to get a job cost $4000 per license, $700 for a student copy (it is cheaper now). our computer lab at school was crap and did not have a version made that decade, so we were on our own trying to learn it. You put that with other graphic orietnted software like 3D Studio and Photoshop, and you are asking a pennyless college student to come up with almost $2,000 to buy software to learn to use. Thats insane. Thankfully, this is somewhat better nowadays. I am in no way saying it is right or should be legal, But it did help me get that first job. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1725 Registered: 1-2002 |
Guys, Ferraris are overpriced, too. Does that justify stealing one, just 'cause you don't want to get ripped off? Supply. Demand. Ringing any bells?  | ||
| Jason Wesoky (Wesokyjb)
Junior Member Username: Wesokyjb Post Number: 114 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'm all for artists distributing their music and movies directly. I'll pay to watch a movie in a theatre, and find that $8 isn't insane (although I must say that since box office prices went up, I've been to fewer movies). I am more than happy to pay an artist $1 or $2 for a song of theirs I like, so long as the money goes to the artist, not Electra or Mercury or Geffen Records. The reason why I think most people feel no shame about ripping music from the 'net via Kazaa is that the only ones being hurt are the big companies. It takes a platinum album to make an artist a millionaire (on average an artist makes less than $1 per cd sold), but significantly fewer sales to make a million dollars for the company (the vast majority of the remaining $14 from a cd sale goes to the label). Don't know much about ripping movies b/c I have dial-up and it'd take 3 days to download The Matrix. | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member Username: Dom Post Number: 181 Registered: 11-2002 |
OK, I'm going to play the devil's advocate here: I think the reason that most people are pirating this stuff is that it costs too much to begin with. A new CD easily costs $20 (and often a lot more), and the likelyhood is that you might get 1 good song on the CD. $20 for a movie that you will watch once or twice?? Where is the money going to: Fat cat executives, and multimillionaire actors/singers. F--- them! If you're a kid who doesn't make a whole lot of money (or even an adult), music and movies can suddenly become a huge portion of your budget. That being said, I don't pirate CD's or movies. I rent movies rather than buy- I only own 2 video's and 1 DVD, and I usually just listen to the radio rather than put in a CD. One of the movies I own on VHS is Animal House, probably my favorite movie of all time. I tried to buy a copy on DVD, and they wanted $70 for it. Bullshit. I refuse to pay that much for a movie, and I'm not going to go to the trouble of downloading it. So, I'll just keep watching it on VHS. If I spent all my money on CD's and DVD's, how could I afford to pay the maintenance on my ferrari. Dom | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 602 Registered: 9-2001 |
The only difference between shoplifting and pirated downloads is you don't have to get out of your chair for the later. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1146 Registered: 12-2001 |
Take a look at Universal Studios v. Remeirdes, district court decision by Judge Kaplan in NY. While it focuses principally on the anticircumvention issues of decrypting a DVD movie, it also discusses the issues of Internet traffic in pirated copies. The other side, which was offering the decrypting software on its site as an act of civil disobedience, claimed that compressed video looked terrible, and that transfer times were unrealistic for anybody to download a movie. We beat that back with expert testimony, but the key was seeing the court's reaction to a compressed version of the Matrix; given that the quality was quite high, the other side's arguments fell on deaf ears. You can't really be serious about the legal issues here, can you? | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1720 Registered: 1-2002 |
I agree with stickanddice. | ||
| Peter (Bubba)
Member Username: Bubba Post Number: 371 Registered: 5-2002 |
I don't bother. Gotta respect other people's hardwork. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 611 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just buy the damn thing. Someone worked hard for it. The more you steal the higher the price tag on the retail side and the more gouged the honest guy will be. It's ok to download some soundbytes to sway you to purchase or not, but burning tons of CD's with pirated stuff just doesn't feel right. As for movies, the quality is crap, so you're better off buying this stuff too. It's not like this stuff costs a fortune. A good movie, even at $20 is a lot of enjoyment for the money. Cheers | ||
| Matthew J Germane (Mjgermane)
Junior Member Username: Mjgermane Post Number: 72 Registered: 1-2003 |
We all know that because of the internet almost any software program is available free of charge. Not only that, you can get all the new movies as well, in DVD quality. What do you guys think about all this? Do you guys have a problem downloading these things? |