| Author |
Message |
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member
Username: Airbarton
Post Number: 615
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 11:38 am: | |
Jails should be reserved for violent criminals. I am sure we can come up with a way to punish him without taking up space in the jail. |
Sean F (Agracer)
Junior Member
Username: Agracer
Post Number: 187
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 10:16 am: | |
Did Martha's inditement even include insider trading? I thought it was only obstruction of justice and a some other small stuff.
She won't serve time over this, and if convicted at all will get a slap on the wrist. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 700
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 11:24 pm: | |
Many folks forget this point, Dave because JFK was able to pass his plan under an economic climate of fiscal restraint and budget surpluses.
Reagan on the other hand tried to institute the same plan when budget deficits were rising and proved that "trickle down" economics only works when surpluses exist.
The direct relationship (which is still somewhat disputed) between rising budget deifcits and rising interest rates is what cause Reagan's plan to fail (or at the very least succeed only marginally).
This 'trickle down' affect (for you Regan era Republicans)on the American economy as a whole is devastating. Even if we redact the lost retirement accounts (investing is afterall a risky business)from scenario #2 and just address the lost jobs due to corporate greed, the affect on the American economy is still devastating.
Where is the devastation? Enron, Worldcom, Martha Stewart, Arthur Anderson, Global Crossing, ImClone and the rest have not devestated our economy. We haven't had a recession since 91' and 6% unempolyment is still very good when you consider the Europeans have had 10-20% for the last 20 years.
Adding up the few hundred millions that they steal every year pales in comparison to the hundreds of BILLIONS our politicans steal from us every year. Add up welfare fraud, medicaid/medicare fraud, social security fraud, and a zillion other wasted uses of our taxpayer's money and it will make the CEO's golden parachutes look like simple rounding errors.
People have been losing their jobs through various business cycles for years. Even if you eliminated all the job losses due to corporate fraud you still only reduce the job layoffs by 10% at most. Enron, Worldcom and others did not cause the current economic slowdown (it is not a recession as the media would have you believe). We are going through a business cycle....plain and simple.
If you look back through the 60's, 70's and 80's you will find the same types of corporate fraud in various forms.
I don't defend people like Waksal, Ebbers, Fastow, Kozlowski and Kenneth Lay. They all did things that were clearly fraudulent in the areas of tax evasion, stock manipulation and the sort. But the insider trading arguement is false and works poorly.
It's also hard as hell to prove. While I think Martha Stewart is guilty of insider trading I don't think they will get a conviction. At the most her flunky broker will get time but I doubt she will.
The point being made about the folks at the top proftiing from this being horrible misses the point. Even with the insider trading laws they are profiting. How many of them will go to jail??...maybe one out of a hundred or so.
So who is left holding the bag...the small investor. Either way, with or without the insider trading law the guys at the top will profit and get away with it. If insider trading were legal at least the little guy would have a chance to get out.
The insider trading laws insure that one out of every 100 or so corporate guys or Wall Street big whigs is punished while the other 99 make out like bandits and the little guys get wiped out.
Trying to nail one Waksal at the expense of thousands of wiped out investors makes no sense at all.
Regards,
Jon
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PeterS (Peters)
Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 686
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 9:52 pm: | |
Jon...And Clinton invented Trickle Down Imorality! |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 1851
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 9:41 pm: | |
Jon is right. Also, Kennedy implemented one of the largest tax cuts in history, to jump start a moribund economy. And it WORKED.
Too bad his little socialist brother has cranial rectosis on this issue, and wants the exact opposite. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 699
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 8:06 pm: | |
Mark,
Get your facts straight! Trickle down economics was invented by a Democrat, John F. Kennedy, not Reagan or the Rebuplicans.
Regards,
Jon
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Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member
Username: Bahiaau
Post Number: 776
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 4:07 pm: | |
Jon, excellent post, as always. |
Randall (Randall)
Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 530
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 2:37 pm: | |
A man drinks 10 beers, goes for a drive and accidently runs someone over and kills them. He gets 3 years.
A man drinks 10 drinks, puts his car in the ditch. Serves the weekend in jail and gets fined.
CEO commits fraud, theft, whatever you want to call it and you want him dead?
Would you support the death penalty for armed robbery, drunk driving and reckless use of a firearm?
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Mark (Markg)
Member
Username: Markg
Post Number: 513
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 2:12 pm: | |
A man enters a 7-11 store with a gun and ski mask. Leaves with $30 cash, no injuries to employee or bystanders. Southland Corporation is out 30 bucks. Robber gets 20 years (as he should).
Multiply losses from robberies to 7-11 stores over the year and the price of Big Gulps goes up a penny.
A man enters the board room of a corporation wearing a CEO mask and commits a multi-million dollar fraud -technically a burglary in some States (entering a building to commit theft OR ANY OTHER FELONY)...corporation looses millions, 15,000 employees loose their jobs and virtually ALL employees loose the retirement accounts THAT THEY PAID INTO. CEO walks with $10 million and his cronies (co-conspirators) walk with million dollar 'golden parachutes'.
First scenario is terrifying to the employee and causes great yearly losses to businesses, which is passed on to consumers in price increases, but no one goes out of business, no one is 'down sized' and no one losses their future income; harsh jail time is called for and fully justified.
Second scenario, huge impacts against a large portion of the work force are created, affecting the entire economy. But for the greed of a handful of corporate officers and directors, thousands of Americans are left broke, unemployed and with no retirement. This 'trickle down' affect (for you Regan era Republicans)on the American economy as a whole is devastating.
Even if we redact the lost retirement accounts (investing is afterall a risky business)from scenario #2 and just address the lost jobs due to corporate greed, the affect on the American economy is still devastating.
Execute them. In public. In front of their down-sized employees and bankrupt investors.
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jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member
Username: Atheyg
Post Number: 280
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 1:50 pm: | |
I have no emphathy for any of them, if anyone thinks these crooks harm no one think again, it effects our economy (your pocketbook or your job)
investor confidence, interest rates etc., as well as costs millions in both Govt resources and tax dollars to prosecute as well as the Govt bailouts for companys from taxpayer dollars
An example will be made of them and must be made to defer future actions by
these greedy, moraless, selfish people and to restore investor confidence. |
Sean F (Agracer)
Junior Member
Username: Agracer
Post Number: 186
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 1:34 pm: | |
Those are some good ideas Jon.
In regards to short selling. Maybe make that illegal for executives to short their own company? |
Dan (Bobafett)
Member
Username: Bobafett
Post Number: 677
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 12:59 pm: | |
There are bigger fish to fry...try real criminals who maim and kill. Jails are packed as it is.
--Dan |
Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jim_schad
Post Number: 1390
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 10:42 am: | |
I agree with you somewhat, but insider info will always create an advantage to those who have it. Say they know the company is in trouble and they want to sell. Do they sell right away or sit on that info until they get all their shorts in place then dump the news? meanwhile Joe Investor doesn't have a computer while on his 4 hour flight. when he lands the stock has tanked and he is left holding the bag. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 698
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 10:11 am: | |
We let murder's off the hook after 20 years in some states for good behavior and you want to give Waksal life for evading taxes and insider trading??
The tax evasion should be severly punished to the maximum extent the law will allow.
As far as insider trading goes, the law is totally stupid and actually hinders the market by restricting those indivduals (in the case the CEO) from signaling when things are going badly by allowing them to sell when they know something the market does not.
The stupid idea that everyone should have the same information is assinine. Why the hell would anyone expect some bumf*ck broker in Boise, to have access to the same information that the CEO of his own company has.
Information is like any other resource....it's something you have to compete for.
Perfect examples are Enron, Global Crossing and Worldcom. While the top brass at all three were doing everything they could to transfer assets (company stock) into holding companies, relatives stock portfolios, and other investment vehicles.....they were telling folks everything was rosy. It is alledged that several Enron executives moved significant portions of stock into off shore vehicles to be able to sell the stock without having to report the sales to the SEC under their names.
What should be done is to make all trades public in real time with the names of the sellers and buyers available. What would have happened if the headline "Martha Stewart sells entire position in ImCLone stock today" came across traders screens? Everyone else would know something's up. But this information doesn't get posted for weeks.
The stocks of Enron, Worldcom and GC were all plumetting fast and this more than anything should have signalled that something was up. But investors ignored all this.
Nobel Prize winning Economist Milton Friedman summed it up best:
"But a person on the inside who knows things are going wrong, who just engages in selling in Enron stock, can make money on it and at the same time serve the market purpose of driving down the price of the stock. And that alerts other people.
You want more insider trading, not less. You want to give the people most likely to have knowledge about deficiencies of the company an incentive to make the public aware of that. By selling and hence driving down the stock price."
When insiders are allowed to sell based on information they posses then stock starts to tank quickly and others are alerted.
Look at WC! Their stock dropped nearly 80% percent before all the problems were discovered. But if you had seen real time information showing that all the executives were bailing out you would wonder what's up.
It's a totally stupid law.
The tax evasion issue should be enforced but insider information should be made legal and everyone should have realt ime access to what the people who run these companies are doing with their own money. The CEO's should be banned from owning company stock in any form that does not specifically reveal them as the owners of the stock (i.e, holding companies, off shore accounts...etc.)
Just my .02 worth.
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23
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Mark (Markg)
Member
Username: Markg
Post Number: 512
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 10:08 am: | |
Execute them. In the parking lot of their corporate HQ in front of employees and investors.
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PeterS (Peters)
Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 685
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 9:06 am: | |
This guy make some bad mistakes, dodged taxes and is probably taking a big hit for Martha. Should the judge throw the book at him to set an example for other CEO's. Personally, I think he is the scum of the earth and should rot in jail. What is your spin on parasites like him? |