| Author | Message | ||
| John (Cohiba_man)
Junior Member Username: Cohiba_man Post Number: 135 Registered: 1-2003 |
QUOTE: "You said he'll have a hard time with face to face sales. The social elements of college could be helpful for his confidence as well. Even if you're a phone person, you're going to have to deal face to face with people at some point." Sorry, you interpreted that the wrong way. He's very charming and persuasive, great with people, but he still looks like he's 18 which is why people won't take him seriously. | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 998 Registered: 3-2002 |
John, my sister-in-law has an MBA, Series 7 and has been in a training program with a major financial institution for 6 months. Basically, they take people in and give them 6-12 months to deliver accounts with a minimum value of $1 million, or they get shown the door. Your nephew is young, and since he's entreprenurial, he should use the opportunity of going to college to arm himself with tools he can always use, such as business, finance and even law. I know he's probably anxious to "conquer the world", but at his age and experience level, it's unlikely professional institutions are going to be very welcoming. You said he'll have a hard time with face to face sales. The social elements of college could be helpful for his confidence as well. Even if you're a phone person, you're going to have to deal face to face with people at some point. | ||
| John (Cohiba_man)
Junior Member Username: Cohiba_man Post Number: 134 Registered: 1-2003 |
BTW, he's not against going to university, but he is ADAMANT in taking a year or two before to try his hand at a sales position. | ||
| John (Cohiba_man)
Junior Member Username: Cohiba_man Post Number: 133 Registered: 1-2003 |
From reading this, and from my own opinion, I would say timeshare sales look to be the best bet, you all have taught me a lot about stockbrokering. I was workign from what I'd seen in movies only ;) so I wasn't in the position to give him any advice, which is why I asked. Does anyone know of timeshare sales companies? I can't seem to find any on the net... I think this position would fit him though, as timeshares aren't as big of a deal as RE or stocks for the buyers, and the age thing won't be as much of an issue. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 609 Registered: 11-2002 |
John, I worked as a commodities broker for one of the biggest firms in the country (Monex International Ltd.) just after I got out of the Navy. I can tell you from personal experience that it is one of the hardest jobs I know. It requires long hours and incredible dedication to become successful in. Of the 25 trainees in my class I was the last one to survive the 1st year. The daily ups and downs of the market and the constant pressure from the management to bring in new accounts alone is enough to make most people cave in and there are many more aspects to the job that can cause a person to fold. Believe me when I tell it sucks. I have never been as unhappy as I was when I worked at Monex. If I were to give the young man advice I would advise him not to do it. There has got to be some other type of sales out there with a far greater chance of success and a lot less headaches than the financial markets. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3177 Registered: 6-2001 |
Its o/t but- horrace mann had an awesome wrestling team my senior year. At one tournament, they placed 1st over us by like 40 team points. Taek, i know seom choate grads that i row with. Seems that choate kids have a reputation (jk  . My $0.02, private highschools dont make such a big deal. If you work just as hard in HS you will get into the same school. And i dont think after that it really matters. I cant see an employer really caring too much about what highschool you went to. I'm not trying to start a flame here, but i also think public highschool is more fun. Just curious, but what happens if you blatantly lie about youe ethnicity on an application? If i said i was alaskan eskimo, i probably would have been accpeted to more places. | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 413 Registered: 8-2002 |
John, Here's my 2 cents: I got a degree in Finance and Economics. Following that, I was hired directly out of college by Merrill Lynch. To be successful at that, you need clients with lots of $$$$. I can tell you from experience, before the dot-com boom, most of the people with extensive portfolios were 1)older, retired 2)Business owners and/or 3)Famous and/or inheritences. Read: nothing in common with an 18 year old. Although I did well, one of my biggest obstacles was that I was young. I once had a prospective client tell me that he had underwear older than I was. You will be face to face with clients. There's no such thing as just being a telephone stockbroker at a reputable firm. For Real Estate, Stockbrokerage, etc... you are gererally dealing with peoples most emotional possession following family/friends= money. Usually, you're involved in some of the largest and most important decisions of their lives. It's understandable if they don't feel comfortable doing so with an 18 year old without a degree. I'm not saying your nephew wont be successful without going to college, only that the fields he is looking at could be long-term jumped started by college. He could intern, while gaining a degree, and come out with knowledge of the industry, a few years of maturity, and most importantly, something to fall back on if necessary. Additionally, he may find that those fields aren't really where his interests are. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 689 Registered: 9-2002 |
Very well put. --Dan | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
New member Username: Dgs Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2003 |
While an "Ivy League" degree may look good on a resume, the practical value of a college education depends less on the quality of the college than on the quality of the student. If you think of college as another four years of spitting up items memorized from the textbooks, then it might be a waste of time. (Do high schools still even _have_ textbooks?) But if you approach college as a service -- determined to get your (or your parents') money's worth out of it, then there's a lot of worth to get. If you approach college as an investment, rather than as a party, then you have to expand your method of thinking, and your way of learning. Simply scanning the textbook before an exam isn't going to get you very far in college. A good college course requires correlating information from different sources, teaching you to "read between the lines" to find common threads in conflicting information. In general (with many exceptions), private colleges tend to be more challenging than state run ones. Private schools are perfectly willing to take your money and then flunk you out the door if you don't keep up. There's no attempt to "dumb down" the curriculum to tweak the statistics. You either teach yourself how to learn, or you're out. And in any field, if you've learned how to teach yourself, you will progress farther than if you expect to find all the answers prepared for you in the back of the book. The ability to learn and adapt will serve you well over a career in any profession. But it does make the corporate fetish for a requisite number of "training hours" something of a bore. I learn a lot more from an hour surfing the suppliers' web sites than from those five day "paint by numbers" courses. ;^) | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1037 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>It helps if you are a minority, obviously. It also helps if you are good at something (i.e. instrument or sport - state placer, etc.).<< It actually hurts if you're Asian. The acceptance ratio is smallest for Asian students. Too many apply and there aren't enough spots. Cheers | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 777 Registered: 12-2001 |
John, I would seriously encourage your nephew to get a degree. Yes, I know lots of seriously successful people who do not have one(myself included) but the reality is that people like you and I represent the minority. IF it turns out that running his own show is not for him, he will wish he had invested the time to get a degree. As for being to young for face to face sales, that is just silly. You are as mature as you act. I got my first business loan at 18 and was a multi-unit restaurant owner before my 25th birthday. Without a degree you are at a disadvantage when competing for traditional jobs. In sales though, the ability to produce results far outweighs anything else. If he is adamant about not attending university and he is FULLY aware of the risks and perils that exist in the real world and is willing to work his ass off then comfort him with the knowledge that he can be as successful as he wants to be without a degree. The risks are just higher. P.S. I have never once had a banker ask to see my transcripts when seeking investment money. P.P.S. I would private message Allan on this board about time share sales as that is what his wife does. | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 157 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ivy leagues : I am applying this coming year, so hopefully I will get in, but as it looks now, it is a long shot ( I want U Penn)... Anyway, it has a lot to do with school reputation I think. My school has no drive or desire (the counselors) for our kids to go to the ivy leagues, and therefore, none go. Because of this, there is really no tradition, and really no obligation for them to accept our kids. This is in contrast to this special AP school in Iowa (I'm in Ohio) that sends 10 people or more per year, pretty much guaranteed. It helps if you are a minority, obviously. It also helps if you are good at something (i.e. instrument or sport - state placer, etc.). Other than that, extremely high test scores - high 1400's or 34+, top of class, and for all intents and purposes, all A's. Wish me luck, with my mediocre test scores (1400's thereabout) grades (2 B's since freshman year), rank (~15)... Ha, oh well, maybe I'll be one of the lucky ones. | ||
| Kendall Kim (Kenny)
Junior Member Username: Kenny Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2001 |
Not really,, I just want my friggen F-Car already... and a nice pad so I'd have a "proper" place to park it... -) | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1036 Registered: 11-2002 |
Poking where it hurts eh Kenny? I never played Tennis so my dignity is intact. Cheers | ||
| Kendall Kim (Kenny)
Junior Member Username: Kenny Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2001 |
Taek- I went to Horace Mann School.. rated one of the best "day" prep schools, but not as good as Andover or Exeter or a Choate.. We used to drive up to Choate every year to play your tennis team... At least we were better at something.. -) | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1034 Registered: 11-2002 |
Kenny, Funny you mention the Philips Academies. My brother is an Andover alumn, and I'm a Choate Rosemary Hall product. Can you tell I'm Asian? Hahaha. At the time of application and enrollment Andover was ranked #1 in the WORLD, and Choate #3. Cheers | ||
| Kendall Kim (Kenny)
Junior Member Username: Kenny Post Number: 75 Registered: 9-2001 |
John- you are mixing apples and oranges... I never said someone who went to a higher ranked college or university will do better in life... I am merely making a comment about the application process to gain admission to colleges... Someone who is smart enough to get in Harvard, and just party getting by with C's, and do nothing else with their lives will fair no better than a hard working individual who excelled at a much less prestigious school but worked their butt off to get somewhere... I am not sure why you are relating the 2 issues... | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1033 Registered: 11-2002 |
John, Also keep in mind that you get out of college what you want. One can breeze past and get nothing out of it. Others enjoy it and get a lot out of it. I don't want to sound like I'm beating up your argument about no college . It's just that it's your nephew's future at hand. It speaks volumes of you that he's taken you as a role model and is contemplating no college to follow in your footsteps. Nevertheless, I think that it is your responsability as this young man's mentor to clearly show him everything and put it in perspective. When it comes down to it, not having a college degree has crippled careers. Not so much the other way around. It's a huge investment of time and money. If the young man was going to succeed without a college education he certainly will do just as well if not better with one. And I doubt he'll complain about the time factor since college can prove to be a lot of fun! To me the positives far outweigh the negatives. I echo Ed's wishes and hope for the best for your nephew irrespective of what path he chooses. Cheers | ||
| John (Cohiba_man)
Junior Member Username: Cohiba_man Post Number: 132 Registered: 1-2003 |
Sorry, should have been more detailled First, QUOTE "if your friend graduated 6 months ago, he was either under an accelerated program or graduated late, because MBA programs do not usually award degrees in the winter." I pulled that 6 months figure out of my you know where, it could have been anywhere from 3 months to a year, as we are not in touch, but all I know is he graduated fairly recently and can't find a job, which brings me to my next point...obviously he is aiming for a certain salary, and I'm sure he could find a lesser job in a second. | ||
| Kendall Kim (Kenny)
Junior Member Username: Kenny Post Number: 74 Registered: 9-2001 |
Taek- I am not sure what you are disagreeing with... Extra curricular activities are a separate issue... The point I was making is, the High school you attend makes a difference to the admission's committee at colleges and universities and not just grades.. Although sad but true, but someone priveledged enough to enroll in an Andover or Exeter will be looked upon more favorably with the same GPA as someone from a public joe schmo public school given all else equal (SAT scores , extra curricular activies) | ||
| John (Cohiba_man)
Junior Member Username: Cohiba_man Post Number: 131 Registered: 1-2003 |
I second that comment about finding the one that fits you. In Canada there are about 10 best universities: U of T, Western, Queens, Mcgill, UBC, McMaster, Alberta, Montreal, Ottawa and Dalhousie. My father went to U of T, at the best college within U of T and studied to become a rocket scientist, so all in all a pretty prestigeous degree. My Uncle went to Ottawa which is the bottom of that list because it had a law school which was easy to get into. He now makes 3 times what my father does.... it doesn't matter that his university was on the bottom of the list, what matters is he excelled there and the education he obtained there has served him well. | ||
| Kendall Kim (Kenny)
Junior Member Username: Kenny Post Number: 73 Registered: 9-2001 |
John- First off, if your friend graduated 6 months ago, he was either under an accelerated program or graduated late, because MBA programs do not usually award degrees in the winter. It's a different timetable and it may have been to his disadvantage graduating in winter since recruiteres are not necessarily looking for candidates then.. He might have an easier time finding work now. Secondly, ANY job is a misleading... Someone graduating from Duke does not just apply to any job out there.. He might be holding out for a specific career he wants to pursue, or whatnot... To HIM that may be any job, to others, certain positions that he wouldn't even consider applying to, may be considered a good job to someone else... it's all relative.. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1030 Registered: 11-2002 |
Kenny, I disagree with you. I got into some Ivys and my brother attended and matriculated from an Ivy. While my brother did have the stellar academic track record one would expect, I did not. You have to be a well rounded individual. I was president of various clubs, spoke many languages, was very skilled in mathematics and business concepts (was in special programs for both), and excelled in athletics. I showed leadership and resourcefulness, my interviews went very well and I left everyone thoroughly impressed. I decided not to attend an Ivy because of where some of my friends went and the extremely strong alumni network from my college. I don't regret my decision at all. Just like cars. Don't let a name fool you. Granted, if you go to a crappy college it makes a difference. But if they are all in the same ballpark (top 25), it's a matter of fit and preference, as well as vocation. Cheers | ||
| John (Cohiba_man)
Junior Member Username: Cohiba_man Post Number: 129 Registered: 1-2003 |
Well I was in all AP classes but there was no weighting since we weren't technically on the GP scale...so no clue what I would have had...I was 2% off of having an unweighted GPA of 4.0...so your saying you need an A average basically to attend, which is 4.0 unweighted? That is extremely easy compared to here in Canada, since to get a 4.0 you need a 80% average which presumably would get you into an ivy league school, but the best universities here in Canada for the best programs require a minimum of 87ish percent and generally accept those over 90%. Here is something to think about, my cousin got his engineering degree from U of T (best university in Canada) and then his MBA which he just finished from Duke. He graduated with high marks from Duke about 6 months ago and has yet to find ANY job, even though he is a p.eng and Duke MBA AND has 5 years experience in engineering and finance. | ||
| Kendall Kim (Kenny)
Junior Member Username: Kenny Post Number: 72 Registered: 9-2001 |
John- I attended a rigorous prep school where many people get into Ivy League schools with a B avg.. A's were extremely rare or just not given out.. It depends on the reputation of the high school.. How it is viewed from the admission's committee.. When you apply to grad school, the same holds true.. The admission's committee will not just look at GPA, but take into consideration how academically rigorous the college is, and the level of difficulty in the courses you enrolled in... If you're applying to Business schools for example, an A avg majoring in communications is certainly not as heavily weighted as an A major in a science discipline such as Chemistry or mathmatics.. | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 987 Registered: 8-2001 |
John, an honors GPA at my school is multiplied by 1.3 for every AP course- so the best is a 5.2 with regular electives. I have a friend with a 4.9 that is going to Harvard, a friend with a 4.4 that got denied from UPenn, Cornell and Duke. On an unweighted scale, you basically need a perfect A to get into an Ivy League school... | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1029 Registered: 11-2002 |
Johm, Having the mental capacity to succeed in a scholastic environment does not ensure a perfect candidate for employment. It shows if anything the guy has capability of succeeding in an environment which he was comfortable in. As an employee this is one of the things you have to look for during the hiring process. College doesn't always make a well rounded individual. Some people excel in "book" environments and when thrown in the real world with no "books" to tell them what to do...unfortunately flounder. Perhaps you hired the wrong guy? I have never hired someone based entirely out of a resume. I've given the nod to people from less prestigeous universities based on their interviews. There isn't a single employee in a higher up position who I regret hiring. It is common and understandable to blame an employee for lack of performance or orientation, but it is my firm belief that a lot of responsability falls on the employer to ensure the person is a good fit for the environment. From the employee's perspective he is doing whatever possible to get a job! Cheers | ||
| John (Cohiba_man)
Junior Member Username: Cohiba_man Post Number: 128 Registered: 1-2003 |
Just out of curiousity, what kind of marks are needed to get into a top ten school in the U.S? I had a 3.7 GPA back then and it was decent in the U.S (but I never took the SAT's) but not spectacular in Canada, so I didn't get in where I wanted. | ||
| John (Cohiba_man)
Junior Member Username: Cohiba_man Post Number: 127 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hey, thanks for the replies...I am guilty of having influenced him somewhat to not enter university, because I didn't and he is taking my success as an example of what one can do without a university degree, and I can't say I've really tried to convince him otherwise. However, having not attended I am not really in the position to argue one way or the other. I will say this, I am starting a company (which has nice growth potential ;) PeterS...) and the person I've hired to run the day to day operations has an MBA from U of T which is the BEST school in Canada, and probably the second best business program in Canada next to Richard Ivey, and let me tell you this man doesn't have the intelligence, common sense or dedication to make it in the business world, no matter how impressive his resume- that I know. I must admit to being slightly jealous, as I never had the marks to attend a top school, which is why I didn't attend, but everyone that works for me in both of my businesses has a degree and none of them make more than me, even though they all work harder ;) | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1024 Registered: 11-2002 |
Oh, I met my wife in college too. Good place to meet girls, like minded overachievers who you might end up with... er... and like minded partiers who you didn't end up with . Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1023 Registered: 11-2002 |
I felt the most important thing in college were the friends I made. We help each other succeed and are friends for life. I've gotten a job for a friend when he was languishing after the tech crash. Others have done the same to others. Kind of like our own little "old boys" network without any of the negative connotation. Cheers | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3173 Registered: 6-2001 |
Also why whould he NOT want to go to college? Sure any good education is alot of hard work, but theres much more to college than that like athletics, playstation 2, drinking, etc. Also, you learn to think differently than in HS. Also, Ed raises a good point. I'm sure our nephew is a bright kid, but when someone reads a resume they will just see that he didnt go to college. He may be motivated, but not going to college certainly isnt typical of a highly motivated person. | ||
| Chris F. (Dallasguy)
Junior Member Username: Dallasguy Post Number: 151 Registered: 10-2002 |
John, I was fortunate to attend one of the top ten rated biz schools in the world. I know lots of fellow classmates who are still struggling to find work and many who are languishing in the entry-level world. I feel like I am one of the lucky few out there who was able to find something I truly enjoy. There were 47 other people interviewing for the same slot I was fortunate enough to earn. Who knows how many of those people were able to make it to something that they enjoy. I guess what I am saying is that there are a lot of college grads out there who are having a hard time. If I were in the company's shoes, I would certainly choose a grad from a top biz school over a younger kid with no degree. Unfortunately, thats how it works a lot of the time. Nonetheless, if your nephew is able to really set himself above and beyond the rest of the crowd and sell himself, there are always people out there who will take that into account and may give him a shot. Just my two cents. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1017 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ed, Having worked in the financial markets, someone like John's nephew would not trade stocks. He would cold call to get accounts for an existing broker and supply him with a steady supply of coffee or soda. Not because he isn't competent but because of his age and scholastic limitations. After a couple of years of proving himself he'll be sponsored to take the Series 7 and if he passes, by the book he would be considered better qualified than any college graduate without a Series 7. He will then go on to be a broker etc and eventually take other exams for mutual funds, bonds, etc. Nevertheless, he will most likely not be a player in the market because of his education level and that is a really crappy position to be in. He will see people who are less qualified than him move ahead etc. John, do reconsider. I'm all for starting young, but the basic foundations have to be set. Cheers | ||
| Ed P. (Ebp)
Junior Member Username: Ebp Post Number: 123 Registered: 12-2002 |
John, I don't think a college education should ever be considered a waste of time; especially for the types of sales positions you have mentioned. Put yourself in a perspective client's position. Would you want to buy real estate or invest in stocks with someone who is 18, has no college degree, and is soliciting you by telephone? I don't mean to sound harsh, just realistic. I wish your nephew well no matter what he decides to do... | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 681 Registered: 9-2002 |
John, Just curious, his rush into the real world without college...is that a personal choice? If so, I'd work on trying to re-evaluate that one. It's funny coming from me (I definetly started my own stuff before / during college, and took lots of it off), because generally I haven't been the biggest advocate of a need. I'm in my final year now (4 years, but I took off 2 because I was ahead, so I'm finishing in 2 total) and watching all of my friends, most of whom went to the same schools as I did (amongst the best in the nation) for primary and secondary, and are at doing well at good schools now, even those guys are having ONE HELL of a time finding work. Taek-Ho and Ken are spot on when they say that a college degree is absolutely essential. Not only is the market hurting badly (which creates the excess supply Taek-Ho mentioned), but the level of competition even for the menial •••• jobs is ridiculous. I got to take a peek at the resumes being passed around at MSDW, and I'll tell you, it's scary. --Dan | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1014 Registered: 11-2002 |
John, I'm with Kenny on this one. College grads are being used as mindless analysts and cold callers right now. There is a surplus of labor and good jobs are hard to come by. A college degree is a bare minimum for even slight consideration into any halfway decent brokerage house. He might get an internship, but even those, you have to start showing your transcripts to show you are a good student. A college education is really becoming a necessity unless you TRULY start something entirely on your own or nepotism. Even nepotism can only get you so far. Cheers | ||
| Kendall Kim (Kenny)
Junior Member Username: Kenny Post Number: 69 Registered: 9-2001 |
The financial industry is in the dumps right now and has been for a while... It's harder and harder for investors to justify paying retail trade commisions for basic financial advice, since many websites offer company info for free, and many other websites have subscriptions that are inexpensive you can buy in choosing stocks.. Without a college degree no legitimate brokerage house will hire him in their training program, maybe some back door sketchy small name firm... | ||
| John (Cohiba_man)
Junior Member Username: Cohiba_man Post Number: 126 Registered: 1-2003 |
Basically want to know the answer to b) but feel free to throw in your opinions on a) | ||
| John (Cohiba_man)
Junior Member Username: Cohiba_man Post Number: 125 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hi, my nephew is graduating HS this week and is looking to get a job as a stockbroker, real estate agent (commercial real estate likely), or (my suggestion) a timeshare salesperson. He is entreprenurial and motivated and doesn't want to waste his time with post secondary because he wants to go into sales anyway. He is going to get a job as a stockbroker this year, as he's too young for real estate sales which are typically face to face (he looks young). My question (his question actually, but I need your help to answer it) is a) Which of the three choices would likely make the most sense financially and would be the best to do, and b)most importantly, what are the names of some companies that hire stockbrokers that primarily work from the phone (he's 18, going to have a hard time with face to face sales). |