| Author | Message | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 187 Registered: 3-2002 |
I know you are done but.... The arabs were not always the ideal hosts either throughout history you have mentioned0. Please let me know; if you want some specific examples of arab attrocities before the creation of the (modern) State of Israel. Israel was there thousands of years before. It is not just a British creation. There is plenty of "evidence" to back that up. There were "always" Jewish people living in the land. and hamas said everyone is a target. Well hamas has to pay the price for that also. There leaders need to be targeted relentlessly without remorse and hesitation. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 715 Registered: 9-2002 |
Ralph: we've covered most everything. And just so you know, Arabs were in the region many thousands of years before. Craig: I'm bringing a counter-balance to the table. All of the pro-israeli discussions need to be balanced by something for the other side. If there wasn't so much media bias, I wouldn't even be participating. Also, I don't go by what one individual might say, like your friend. No doubt that there might be an argument, but if Britain wanted to create a region for them, why not do it within their own borders? Historically speaking, the creation of Israel, while in principle a good thing (I'm not against the idea of a haven for the Jewish people at all - I very much like the idea), was carried out in an almost haphazard *and* unlawful manner. WHat I find *most* amazing about this whole thing is that when the Christians persecuted the Jews (as they have historically done. The major religious battles have been Judaism vs. Christianity), it was the Muslims who gave them refuge, care and safe haven. This is fact (read your history books). The whole Judaism vs. Islam thing, with respect to Palestine/Israel, is *extremely* recent. After so many thousands of years, I find it amazing that they 'just can't get along'. Ok, I really am done now. I promise.  --Dan | ||
| Fayyaz Vellani (Fvellani)
Junior Member Username: Fvellani Post Number: 89 Registered: 8-2002 |
boys, I think Dans done in this thread... | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 185 Registered: 3-2002 |
Dan you still have not answered any of my questions. You sit back and counter each and every post I made. As far as finding another spot. It is not on anyones table in Israel. That is a non issue. The Jews were there before any arabs were around. You need to tell us about some of those outstanding issues you left out. | ||
| Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member Username: Beachbum Post Number: 129 Registered: 9-2002 |
one more thing, what is it, 30% of Israelies are arabs? dont they have a right to be there? not to mention a large percentage of Israelies are from the middle east to begin with, when Israel was created Jews came from all over the middle east so they could have there own country and to avoid years and years of persacution, a friend of mine is an Iraqy jew, she told me how her family was treated, the Israelies could buy 100 square miles of desert in the middle of the Sahara and yould still have the arabs crying how the Jews stole our land does anybody find it ironic that every single inch of the middle east is sacred to the Arabs but they come to the US and they have no problem sharing our country | ||
| Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member Username: Beachbum Post Number: 128 Registered: 9-2002 |
Dan, 1, you critisize Israel because they fight back with greater force than the terrorist, youve got to be kidding, so when someone brakes into your house, and they come at you with a knife your going to put your gun down and grab your knife just to be fair? 2, in your first post you claim that both sides are at fault but almost your entire post is a critisizim of Israel, Sharon and Netanyahu 3, last time i heard the count the palistians had killed 67 of there own people, and that was 6 months ago, im sure its more now, but when the news media is counting the dead they make it sound like all the palistian casualties including the suicide bombers, are caused by the Israelies, hows that for fair reporting Israel isnt doing anything any other country wouldnt do to protect its people, but because its the jews some how its not justified, i think Israel is showing great restraint, if this same situation was happening in an arab country the arabs would go in and kill every single purpitrator plus 100,000 civilians just to make sure they got them all Dan, get a grip! | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 711 Registered: 9-2002 |
Ralph, I do get a lot of international news, and I'll tell you the US shows less than 1/3 of the story most of the times. Sensationalism is a b*tch. As for the agreements, I concur, they should've signed many times before. BUT, that doesn't mean the Israelis are right. Who put them there in the first place? The British. Under what rules and right? Well, historically, NONE. Nothing under the UN of the time, nothing under international law. WHy not give them a safe haven in a region less occupied or controversial? But I've wasted enough breath on this topic. Not going to get into it anymore. Thanks for the discussion, though, I do like seeing all of the perspectives. --Dan | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 183 Registered: 3-2002 |
You cannot carve out binding agreements with a repressive regime that is corrupt. Is there are parallel in history where it has worked BEFORE ? | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 182 Registered: 3-2002 |
Israel also stood alone with just primarily French arms before 1968. I did not see them sue for peace on the arab terms before 1968. The outstanding American arms help the Israelis no doubt. It will not work. I do not think the Israelis want to pack their bags and move to Poland. I do not think the Poles want them their either. Nobody is going to move on the Israeli side. Dan: You are concerned about U.S. biased views towards Israel. I am sure you can find a few pro-arab commmentarys in France and a few other countries in Europe. I am sure they just do not see the bus being blown up. Ain't it great ? You go to your boss and ask for a raise. You get 97% of what you ask for. It is "not" enough. What do you do ? You start an armed insurrection against civillian targets. Is that not a bit much ? hamas already has declared that they have no intention of laying down their arms. There is nothing more to say. Once again the way out is democracy. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 702 Registered: 9-2002 |
Taek, Certainly not to discredit. I considered the Oriental cultures before making the statement, but for the purposes of this particular discussion left them out. I readily concur, there is great culture that has stemmed forth for many thousands of years from the region. Ralph: Democracy doesn't exist in our country, how can it elsewhere? We're definetly getting on a tangential, but I enjoy these discussions because it brings to my attention viewpoints other than my own (where's Bill, who started this as it is??). I'm not saying they're right, but if you study the older cultures of the world (with a nod to Taek here), you'll find that 'middle class' prosperity was far more abundant then. Here the disparity of power and wealth is amazing, and we only exacerbate the problem elsewhere in the world. One step at a time, things can change. Omar is right that in a period of time, it will be someone else on top. My honest guess is african americans. And as for my choice: I'm here. Of course, I was born and raised here, but I haven't left of free will. And I certainly give no credit to the despots in control of many a government, who should be spending their billions on the education of their people rather than cars for their kids (an unfair generalization, but you get my point). But the original discussion was one of Palestine vs. Israel, and I still stand by the statements that there is too much media bias towards one side and not the other. Who's to fault? - Does it even matter anymore? The focus now is trying to create resolve. I really wonder if it will come about only when the current generation of leaders in those areas, who have seen the battle from the start, are finally deceased. I still firmly believe that we shouldn't be sending any more arms packages to israel, but that's a personal statement. --Dan | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 180 Registered: 3-2002 |
The answer to all of this is democracy. I have posted this before. No democracy - No peace. Yes that means fair elections for a free govenment. "Not" like where the # 2 appointed loser has very low single digit losing returns. This is how it is today. The free government will foster a middle class. There is no such thing as that today. Why bother when you have seven maids in your house. Why change a thing? Your choices are monarchies, dictatorships, and religious fundamentalist governments that desire to remain eternally in the 14th Century. | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 687 Registered: 9-2002 |
Ralph, a similar statement can be made about a number of other races as well. Every race had its 'hayday' at one time or another....and some haven't been 'in' in terms of Modern progression for a lot longer than the Arabs. (Mine for one...it's been over 1,000 years for us..since nowadays people like to come in, take us over, and kill off our population..but that's another story) In a 1,000 years who knows who will be on top? Can we say that we(US) will be there still? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1049 Registered: 11-2002 |
I feel compelled to throw my 2 pennies in... This is a very sensitive issue to say the least, so I'm not going to comment in the peace argument. Nevertheless, I have many friends in the Middle East, and I think most would be surprised at the accomplishment and contributions to society some have made. Dan, As far as them being the most advanced culture, I would have to disagree and give the nod to my fellow yellow people . See even smiley faces are yellow! You guys are still miles behind. Hehehe. Cheers | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 179 Registered: 3-2002 |
Dan who owns the media ? Who owns Time magazine and CNN ? Dan what have the arabs accomplished the last 500 years ? Algebra is over 500 years old. What has been done lately ? What have they done to help advance mankind ? inventions, cures, great thinkers, products etc... | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 700 Registered: 9-2002 |
Ralph, I'm not saying either is innocent. I'm saying their equally at fault. My issue is that the media spin has definetly got a pro-israel as opposed to unbiased POV. Then again, look at who owns the media. And back to this shooting guns in the air bit - CNN's reporters *themselves* said that in their estimates, it is a very small part of the population who cheered such actions, and that most people in the region they saw after the incident were horrified. My guess is, that percentage of population is probably smaller than the percentage who sheds no tear when Iraqi civilians are killed (although the analogy is not direct, I realize). --Dan PS: Ralph, while the western world was in the middle ages, these people were the most advanced cultures in the world. Let's not discredit the history of the region. It is said that the Tigris is blackened from the books thrown into the river when conquered. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 177 Registered: 3-2002 |
Not quite Dan ~ Oh by the way - Don't forget about the other antics of these people from the middle ages : Shooting Ak-47's in the air and giving out candy to children while sipping sweet tea after 9/11. Don't forget about their pres running to Baghdad before the 1991 Gulf War. They did a good PR job in trying to contain positive protests for Sadamm in 2003. Now try and negotiate a give and take (Western Style) peace treaty ?? Yeah right ! Dream on. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 695 Registered: 9-2002 |
Dave, Coming from you, I'm feeling honored. No, I certainly don't condone suicide bombings and the like. Frankly, it's sickening. BUT, that doesn't mean that both sides are angelic. News anywhere around the world will give you hundreds of incidents over the past few years of Israelis doing exactly that: targeting innocents. I'm simply trying to provide a little balance in the assertions. What amazes me is how one-sided most of the debates seem to be. Perpetually rooting for the underdog, --Dan PS: Ralph: by your last statement, that includes 'eliminating' the past three prime ministers of Israel. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1869 Registered: 1-2002 |
Dan Bobbafett, I have no choice but to award you this for your post:  | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 172 Registered: 3-2002 |
Obviously Israel does not go about purposely targeting civillian poplulations. Usually there is always a terrorist slimeball laying in the pile somewhere. The other side purposely goes out of its way to target civillians. It is plain and simple. Once again enough is enough. The political leadership and financiers of the terrorist organizations must be eliminated. The Middle East is a tough neighborhood. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 659 Registered: 4-2002 |
And a bomb wrapped terrorist dressed as an orthodox Jew versus a bus full of civilians is fair? | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 693 Registered: 9-2002 |
I think both sides are equally at fault. The Israelis have engaged in as many underhanded activities, visible or not, to help undermine the process. Sharon is a sickening war criminal, and Netanyahu was no better. What I find most amazing is that the Israelis retaliate with such dramatic force (an Apache vs. a pistol isn't really a fair fight, now is it?) - how can people condone Israeli action so easily. They're at just as much fault. Both sides have had myriad opportunities to solve this peacefully, and both have wasted them away. Sad, really. --Dan PS: I should add, I would *very* much like to see an end to the arms aid that the US gives Israel. That alone will bring this to resolve much faster. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 170 Registered: 3-2002 |
I have a few observations: Will the Arab / Palestinian (leftists / people with Western views of freedom) please stand up. Of course we all know there are NONE. There are NONE in the Middle East and in the Western World who reside amongst us. The hand few who speak out against anything of the norm are dragged in the street. After this typical ritual you end up providing shade upside down on a lamp post. The Plo standing up against Hamas ? They are more interested in lining their corrupt pockets and checking into purchasing the latest black Mercedes limo. Plo and Hamas are basically one and the same. Plo promotes young adolescent suicide bombers to attack Israeli civillian targets. Ever seen the photos of the little boys carrying toy AK-47's in the street with explosive belts around their chests ? Can you find ANY parallels in the Western World ? Don't forget about the mothers yelling and screaming for joy while they send their boys on one way missions which will ultimately end with a spot in heaven. Of course the elites send their boys to study in Europe. They are safe and away from everything. They have to come back and run the family business. Please people the culture and value of human life is completly different in the arab culture. You are not exactly negotiating in good faith. It is not like negotiation a border dispute between the U.S. and Canada. Some times you have to fight. The time has come along time ago. Yes I know that is all that is left on the table. Enough has already been talked about. There is nothing else to talk about. Their demands are out of this world. I know they feel the same about ours. But I am sure they can find some other "areas" in the huge arab nation. We are talking about an area the size of New Jersey. ~ Not Calif or TX. And why did they NOT want ANY independence when the Egyptians and Jordanians rule the Gaza Strip and West Bank before 1967? No aspiration for independence. Because their homeland IS Jordan. Pure and simple. **** Try and run the # of Israeli civillians that were killed and multiply that out by the difference of Israeli and U.S. populations !!! Lets suppose that thousands of American civillians were murdered in Brownsville, and McAllen Texas. How long would any U.S. President accept those casulties ? Yes Art sometimes you have to forcefully put an end to this. O/T: Your last few points were also valid. This is going to go on and on as long as the eliteists want to live FOREVER politically and socially in the 14th Century. O.K. Art grab the keyboard. Dave and I are waiting. Ralph | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 869 Registered: 1-2002 |
I've sat around, and thought about this for a while, and the only measure that woule absolve the world of these conflicts (religious, spiritual, faithful, etc.) would be tha abolition of religion... there really isn't another way around it. This will go on for as long as these people are innoculated (i.e.; born into their respective faiths) with the belief that their struggle is a holy one, absolved of mortal responsibility, and will ultimatly benefit them (i.e.; their people), their religion, and their cause. I realize that the more curtsey, and less gorilla, among the movement have moved toward reconcilliation, perhaps even mutual appeasement, but with out this conflict where will their scale of power tip, and why would they ever want to absolve themselves of the power inherited by being leaders of their respective movements? | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1859 Registered: 1-2002 |
IMO, any Hamas operative is fair game for Israel, since Hamas is SOLELY a terrorist organization that has vowed to drive all Israelis into the sea & exterminate Jewry. And, why can't the PLO stop Hamas? They could, but it would be VERY bloody civil war. But the PLO is too chicken, for 3 reasons, IMO: (1) Hamas is very useful tothe PLO's "dark side", i.e., Arafat's terrorist nature, to keep Israel "in line"; (2) PLO leaders are (rightfully) afraid that Hamas will have them executed; and (3) too many in the corrupt PLO leadershi have a vested interest in the status quo, i.e., them as the left wing "victims" without a "homeland", thus getting some world sympathy. If they actually make peace & get their own country, then they have to run it, and world scrutiny will be much less forgiving of all the corruption that squanders the world's money (all of the PLO budget comes from other countries, mostly the US, sadly). | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1232 Registered: 12-2001 |
I know we've been around the block on this one more than once, but here's where i'm stuck: the Palestinian representative, Abbas has been making gestures of conciliation, as has the Israeli gov't. There are, however, factions on both sides who disagree. On the Palestinian side, we have Hamas, which has rejected the latest peace plan a/k/a the "road map" as Zionist treachery. But more than that, they have vowed not to put down their weapons, and to make good on the promise, have launched more attacks against Israelis. I know that "both" sides have endured an endless cycle of retaliation, and see the other as the instigator. However, there are more than two sides to this negotiation, and since the Palestinians cannot prevent Hamas from attacking Israelis, what is the point? Also, i'm not sure i accept the notion that a Hamas political leader is immune from attack simply because he is not directly involved in operations, but instead, according to the NYTimes (yeah, i know), gives daily exhortations to carry out attacks against Israel. All rational points of view solicited. |