| Author | Message | ||
| Jaime T. Ferraris are sex on wheels (Chevarri)
Junior Member Username: Chevarri Post Number: 150 Registered: 1-2003 |
Sorry to bump this, but stuff like this pokes at my curiousity. Why was this Pantera parked in the first place? Its kinda upseting to see it go to hell, but the keys are still in the ignition! | ||
| Matt Bradley (Ghostridr)
Junior Member Username: Ghostridr Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2002 |
I don't doubt there are DeTomasos that overheat. I myself spoke directly of the Pantera, as I've never even seen a Mangusta firsthand (there were only about 400 produced). I don't know how the aftermarket parts are for those cars. Shouldn't be too hard of a problem to correct. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2506 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie Murphy was an opitmist. Best | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1473 Registered: 5-2002 |
James, about 15 years ago, I was watching a satellite feed of a big parade of off-shore racing boats from Michigan. Apparently they were having a giant boat racing extravaganza, complete with a parade through some town (Detroit?) with these giant high-po, off-shore racing boats. There were some cars thrown in for good measure. One of the cars was one of the Corvette experimental prototypes from the GM plant. It was chugging along with the rest of the parade, and right when it got even with the reviewing stand and the TV cameras, it blew out a radiator hose BIG TIME. Steam came boiling out of the car, hot water was pouring out onto the pavement, and the driver limped the car over to the side of the street. Not a good PR day for Chevrolet. I just happened to be recording the event, and somewhere in my stash of videotapes is this shining moment of Chevrolet history. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2504 Registered: 10-2002 |
Matt In this months Sports Car Market there's a report of a Mangusta being auctioned at the Peterson in LA. It overheated driving up to the block. (TRUE) | ||
| Rodney Haas (Icars)
Member Username: Icars Post Number: 417 Registered: 3-2002 |
Arlie, Believe me I understand what you are saying. I was somewhat frustrated that she did not mention an asking price. This is however not unusual for people selling what they perceive be collectors cars. Same thing happened to me a few years ago with a Lancia. In that case it worked to my advantage. Told the guy I would give him $500 for "the Salvage" I ended up paying $1200 for a car that was probably worth 4K. If he would have just told me $2500 to start with I would have paid it without blinking. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1467 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's a crazy, radical idea. Why don't you tell that lady to hang a price tag on those cars, then people will know whether they are interested or not. When she goes to the grocery store, does she pile her grocery cart full of items that she has no idea of the price? Of course not. So why does she think a bunch of car buffs are going to chase after a rust bucket without any idea how much she wants for it? Or are those cars just "sucker bait" for a bunch of dreamers with more money than brains? Sounds like THOSE are the kind of people she is looking for. How nice that this forum is being used to funnel those suckers to her doorstep. Her departed husband probably paid 4 or 5 thousand dollars for those cars years ago, and anything above that is pure profit for her. Of course we can be guaranteed that she will declare all of that profit on her form 1040 next year. This will make the new owner feel better after being fleeced when purchasing a high dollar rust bucket. | ||
| Rodney Haas (Icars)
Member Username: Icars Post Number: 416 Registered: 3-2002 |
Rob, You simply have to come in some where in the middle. There are plenty of cars that are not completely dead that can restored. These cars can generally be restored a little @ a time. You generally come out even or a little in the red. The 9K running Pantera for instance, would be a great project. Even with rust you can problem come out about even. Also you know what has been done. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6127 Registered: 12-2000 |
I agree Peter. I hope to start restoring a Ferrari in a few years. I'm sure I'll spend twice what it's worth. I'm not doing it for an investment. Unless you call the experience and satisfaction my return on the investment. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2500 Registered: 10-2002 |
Matt Doubt on but I saw 2 bright and shiney Pantera's and one Mangusta cooking away heading out of the Historics. At the CI I saw 2 more pulled over steaming away. You can fix anything but these guys didn't. | ||
| Matt Bradley (Ghostridr)
Junior Member Username: Ghostridr Post Number: 109 Registered: 12-2002 |
Overheating was a common, early problem, solved long ago. Just get a new radiator. $400 buys a new Fluidyne aluminum, better fans probably about $140. Then you've got people like me who are still running the stock radiator and I've never overheated, and I'm living in Dallas! And I doubt you are seeing that many overheating Panteras at Monterey, most of those guys are way into customizing and upgrades. | ||
| G. Green (Mr_green)
Junior Member Username: Mr_green Post Number: 238 Registered: 8-2003 |
James, They make after market radiators and fans for Panteras so they don't overheat. I don't know about Mangustas. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2499 Registered: 10-2002 |
Before you get too hot and bothered about a Pantera go to the historics next year. As you head home in the traffic jam note the number of overheated Pantera's and Mangusta's sitting at the side of the road blocking traffic. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Junior Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 135 Registered: 8-2003 |
I was only talking about the Pantera-not the Maserati's. But,agree that you CAN find nice versions of either of those cars,in the mid $30's. BUT...THAT wasn't what was being discussed. I was ONLY talking about a $9,000.00 PANTERA ( a "good running and driving car,needs restoration")...NOT a nice one, and not a Maserati. So,theres no need for any further speculation.Thanks. (P.S.- there was also a point made earlier. That the engine is the EASIEST PART of the restoration. And,in my experience...Fabricating new steel panels,and,re-upholstering are just as easy!) You,I or ANYONE cannot speculate about a car that none of us has seen! I originally posted that getting a running,driving Pantera,needing restoration,was a good buy,for $9,000.00. And I will argue with anybody,all day long about it! ESPECIALLY...compared to the rusted out,scavenged,not running,not driving,raccoon nest that some other guy paid $13,000.00 for! | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 3051 Registered: 12-2000 |
Potential flame post... Beware Then I ask, what should happen to these cars? Should they just be left to rot away? I think its a waste. Yes, it is a bigger waste that they are in the condition that they are in, but, these things happen (s--- happens). "You would either have to do all the work yourself" - True, it would barely be economically viable, but what satisfaction one would get to bring back one of these corpses from the dead. I'm just bothered by this type of talk I read here (and elsewhere and from what I hear) on these and other half-classics to walk away from basket cases. If I hear of a story where some guy spent not alot of money, but years of hard-work to resurrect an old MG and make it look fantastic, I have more respect for that person than some wealthy individual who contracts out work to specialists around the world and spends $100K's on it... | ||
| Rodney Haas (Icars)
Member Username: Icars Post Number: 414 Registered: 3-2002 |
Frank, The engine is the least of your cost on restoring these cars. Many cows died for the interior of the 3500 & Mexico. Also even minor rust problems on a 30 year old can be a problem. Not to mention acid itching, sanding etc. The Mexico engine a bigger deal with limited part supply. The 3500 very very limited, you will have to machine many parts. Since you can get a very nice 3500 for mid 30s, and a nearly 100 point Mexico for 25K, and a very nice Pantera for upper 30s, it's simply not worth spending big bucks on these kinds of restorations. You would either have to do all the work yourself, or the cars have to be historically important. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Junior Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 133 Registered: 8-2003 |
I meant to say,"30 year old cars". (thats what I get for spending more time in Auto shop,than English class,to make sure to always proofread your posts before you post "em!) 30 year old cars=even simpler! Have a nice day! | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Junior Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 132 Registered: 8-2003 |
And,if you can do all,or most of the work,yourself (these ARE 20 year old cars,not too difficult.) Ford engines, (been tearing them apart and puttin'them back together since High School-1974) It is NOT going to cost 25-30k to restore it.-unless you are replacing EVERYTHING!. (or sending it out to a "High Buck" restoration shop) If I was going to spend the $9K,I'd take the Pantera over a 2 or 3 year old Taurus! | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Junior Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 131 Registered: 8-2003 |
However,since I didn't get a chance to actually see this car to know exactly what it needed,(nor did you) it's really senseless to even speculate as to it's actual condition. I have been working on cars for almost 30 years. And,what could be seen as a Major problem to one,could be seen as a Minor problem to another! Some shops have the capability to repair,or,fabricate,in house. Some don't, and have to send things out,which is GOING TO cost alot MORE. And, you can't even compare between a good,original car,a nice,restored car,or,a car that is in need of restoration. 3 totally different animals. If we were talking about going out to buy a nice Pantera,thats one thing. But,we are talking about a car,sight unseen,that the seller was saying "needs to be restored". That could mean anything from a toatal,frame off nut and bolt restoration,or,simply a cosmetic restoration-if the car had an already good drivetrain. And,by the seller stating that "it was a good running and driving car" ,thats already ALOT better start than what that doofus who paid $13K for that rusted out,not running or driving, "barn find" car has! So,we're talking about a "good running and driving car" to start with,for $9k And,knowing that "nice" Pantera's go up to the mid $30K's,thats not bad. And,PROVIDING that the car does not need a total,frame off nut and bolt restoration,the buyer got a good deal.( alot better deal than the "barn find" guy did!-you can't argue that!) And,the guy that bought the running and driving car for $9K,can DRIVE his car,to cruise nights and car shows,and have people go:"Look a Pantera!" until he decides to "restore" it. The guy who bought the $13K barn find car,cannot! AND...if the car DID need a complete,total restoration,he's got a $25-$30K window to make it a good car. AND get his money out of it. | ||
| Matt Bradley (Ghostridr)
Junior Member Username: Ghostridr Post Number: 105 Registered: 12-2002 |
Yes, but talk to those same buyers after restoration and see what they spent to make it a proper car again. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Junior Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 127 Registered: 8-2003 |
Regardless of what it would need . $9grand for a running,DRIVING Pantera is a good (maybe not Great) buy. Even though it neded a total restoration,(which I was told it did.) But,I am comparing it to the "Barn Find" car in this thread. ( and the other Barn Find threads that I've seen). Did you see the money that was paid for some of those cars! | ||
| Matt Bradley (Ghostridr)
Junior Member Username: Ghostridr Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2002 |
Not neccesarily a good buy. For example, with the monocoque construction you can't just bolt on new fenders and such. All those people who buy $15K Panteras inevitably spend $20K-30K in restoration, and end up with a $25K Pantera. Best to find one thats already been restored, or at the very least maintained. You'll come out ahead. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Junior Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 124 Registered: 8-2003 |
About this time last year. I picked up one of those "local" auto trader type magazines that come out every week,and you can grab one on your way out of the supermarket.I saw an ad for a small,"corner" car lot in the city. The guy had a '72 Pantera, "runs and drives" but, "needs restoration" for $9000.00! Needless to say,I called right away,and,ofcourse the car was already gone. I told the guy I would have given him even more for the car. He said,"It needed to be restored". I told him. "If it's a Pantera,and it runs and drives,regardless of the condition,you probably could have gotten more than $9 grand for it!" Someone got a good buy! | ||
| Rodney Haas (Icars)
Member Username: Icars Post Number: 400 Registered: 3-2002 |
Yep think I might have irritated Deborah a little. I asked he how much she wanted for the Mexico and that I was going to low ball her. Unfortenatly it's the only way the car makes any sense. K&K has a perfect 100 point car for sale that can probably be purchased for 26 or so. Why go through the heart break of a restoration when I can pick up probably the most perfect car in the US for the price of the restoration. | ||
| Matt Bradley (Ghostridr)
Junior Member Username: Ghostridr Post Number: 92 Registered: 12-2002 |
An article on these cars has appeared online: http://www.velocetoday.com/cars/cars_52.php | ||
| G. Green (Mr_green)
New member Username: Mr_green Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2003 |
Let me start by saying I love Panteras. For what it would cost to restore that P-car, you could find a pristine example for less money. I'm sorry to say but that car is a goner. | ||
| Rodney Haas (Icars)
Member Username: Icars Post Number: 397 Registered: 3-2002 |
Yep I am still looking @ the Mexico, but the same problems exist. Even if I would get the car for nothing, I am not sure that I could come out even. I can purchase a 100 point perfect Mexico from K&K for 29K. Let's see Engine Rebuild 9K Paint $5K Interior 7K Brakes & Hydraulics 2K Transmission 2K Hum not far off and I still have not mentioned switches etc. Yes some stuff might come out a little cheaper, but then again what do you pay for the car. I restored my 72 Indy. The restoration cost me about 16K. That was with a car that had a total engine rebuild before I purchased it. | ||
| Lawrence Yee (Ferrariguy)
Member Username: Ferrariguy Post Number: 289 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks for the info Doug. Rodney is right though when all is said and done, after restoration the total cost would be easily enough for me to buy a decent driver. This car's engine was re-built 8 years ago and has since sat in the barn so it will have to be re-built again. Even if I did some of the resto and re-build work which I was planning to do it would still cost me a fortune. | ||
| Rodney Haas (Icars)
Member Username: Icars Post Number: 396 Registered: 3-2002 |
The real problem with all these cars is the cost of restoration. It's real easy to get way under water on a restoration. | ||
| Doug meredith (Dougm)
Member Username: Dougm Post Number: 354 Registered: 2-2001 |
Lawrence Get the VIN and goto www.poca.com for the answer to L or Pre-L. The rear bumper is from an L model and the front chrome side bumperettes are from a pre-L. I guess this car is 1/2 of each  | ||
| Lawrence Yee (Ferrariguy)
Member Username: Ferrariguy Post Number: 282 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hi Peter! I'm awaiting a reply from Mrs. Wilson with the details. I'll see if it's economically feasible since Panteras are not cheap to restore and I can buy a decent driver from between 25-35K US I'll keep you posted! | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2997 Registered: 12-2000 |
Lawrence, when should I expect to see you drive up to the N.Van Italian show with this thing? 2005? 2006?... Go for it! | ||
| Lawrence Yee (Ferrariguy)
Member Username: Ferrariguy Post Number: 280 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks Erik, I'll see what she's got! | ||
| Dr. Erik Nielsen (Judge4re)
Junior Member Username: Judge4re Post Number: 157 Registered: 4-2003 |
I was told that the engine was rebuilt right before it was parked. I don't know milage or other details. Of all of the cars there, it was the one that interested me the least, so I only gave it a cursory look. Deb is easy to deal with, so I'd ask away. | ||
| Lawrence Yee (Ferrariguy)
Member Username: Ferrariguy Post Number: 278 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hi Erik, A friend of mine owns a body shop and we're looking for a project to for both of us to work on. The body obviously is in rough shape but I'm not worried about that. Regarding the Pantera, before I consider contacting Mrs. Wilson, did you happen to look at the drivetrain? What shape it's in? Miles on the car? Books, records? Year, is it a pre-L? And finally what do you think dollar wise is she looking at. Thanks! p.s. I'd also like to know what she's looking for in the Maserati 3500 but I have a feeling restoring it would take a whole lot more money! | ||
| Dr. Erik Nielsen (Judge4re)
Junior Member Username: Judge4re Post Number: 151 Registered: 4-2003 |
Deborah Wilson also asked me to pass the following other barn cars along to everyone. They are available and she is entertaining offers. She can be contacted directly at [email protected]. I'm not acting in any broker role on these, just passing along the pictures.        |