| Author | Message | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 404 Registered: 12-2002 |
I dont get why some of these clutches are so sensitive - why not beef them up? I had at least 400 drag strip passes in my Viper, and I drove it hard! I would rev to about 3,000RPM and aggressively slip the clutch off the line to avoid any bog. This was on a prepped track with lots of VHT and sub 1.6 60-foot times, which were probably low 3-second (if not high 2-second) 0-60 times. That is the definition of "hard launch". I probably did 300-400 of those, and 25k of "regular" driving too, and the clutch was as good the day I sold it as it was new.. and this on a car that put 465lb-ft to the rear wheels (dynoed on a dynojet). I guess I don't get how a Murcie clutch seems so sensitive then? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 2151 Registered: 11-2002 |
I've read from a source that the E-Gear is going to be pretty darn good. Not as grabby as Ferrari's F1, which is a common complaint from people I've met who own one, yet equally as responsive. Cheers | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6717 Registered: 8-2002 |
i guess you're right... | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 2133 Registered: 11-2002 |
Because sometimes these cars beg to be abused!  Tracking a car is abusive behavior too, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. I'm guessing it's also fun to see what it feels like to launch a car like a pro. An idiotproof way to get a perfect launch. Cheers | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6641 Registered: 8-2002 |
Taek, that makes sense to me, but if it's that abusive then why even make it an option on the car...? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 2131 Registered: 11-2002 |
DES, In essence it's a controlled "dropping of the clutch". Optimum launch and consequently VERY taxing on the clutch. I could see how it is considered abusive behavior which also voids warranty on clutches. Cheers | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6640 Registered: 8-2002 |
What...?!? That's crazy...! Why put the option on the car if it's just gonna void the warranty after a few uses...? That's nuts... Just my opinion, maybe i don't know enough about launch control, but that seems crazy... i'd void the warranty just taking the car out for a test spin from the lot...! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2649 Registered: 10-2002 |
I believe that on the M3 if you enguauge Launch control it's noted in the onboard comptuer and after 10X you're on your own. Anyone? | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6633 Registered: 8-2002 |
J6, thanks... i had no idea what you were referring to, but now it makes sense... i can honestly say i've never 'launched' anything, not even my Saturn... A warranty is voided on a car if you launch it more than 10 times...? i've never heard that before... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2648 Registered: 10-2002 |
Des Reving the engine, dropping the clutch, and launching from a dead stop puts a lot of strain on the entire drivetrain. Standing on it from a roll is much less abusive. Launch Control while way cool probably puts a lot of strain on the drivetrain as well. (The start of a F1 race or in an Enzo, Stradale, or new M3 although more than 10 uses voids the warrantee) That's why Allan and I launch from a roll. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6629 Registered: 8-2002 |
Don't mean to hijack, but Mr. G., could you expound on that...? | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 999 Registered: 6-2002 |
Manu, hardly a record, i know people with 30-40 -50,000 miles on original clutches. I have about 20,000 on my clutch. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 2129 Registered: 11-2002 |
Manu, Sorry if my tone seemed a bit aggressive or defensive. It was certainly not meant that way. My experience was simply different from yours. I do want to point out that my seat time in a 550 was only a little less than an hour as opposed to the Murcielago which I had much longer. Cheers | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 844 Registered: 2-2002 |
Teak - you *may* have misunderstood me. The engine did not feel as eager to rev as the 550 I used to drive. Nonetheless I thought the amount of power available at low rpm was incredible. It's not a criticism of the engine just an observation that the Lamborghini V12 felt VERY different to the Ferrari V12. As I said I actually now prefer the more substantial muscular delivery of the Lamborghini. Jim/Alan - you're both right - if you don't know how to drive then the clutch is dead anyway. Rumour has it that there is a Diablo SE30 on it's original clutch here in the UK after 18,000 miles! A record? | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 995 Registered: 6-2002 |
No problems with any of my clutches, whether they be Lambo or Ferrari. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2636 Registered: 10-2002 |
I think a big part of it is knowing how to use a clutch. I've never repaced a clutch in anything including 250K F car miles. (At 100K miles I replaced the clutch in my TR during a major as we had it apart but there was plenty of life left) I also think it's important to stand on it from a rolling start not a dead stop. Over time that makes a huge difference. One other thing thats important is to be crisp and not slip it too much. Matching revs is also important. I'm not sure everyone who owns one of these cars fully understands this. Alan has no problems with his Lambo clutches so I think it's a lot about the driver. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 2126 Registered: 11-2002 |
Manu, >>Nonetheless the actual shift is quicker than a modern Ferrari V12... My overiding memory of the car is 'WHAT an engine!' That Lamborghini V12 is lazy, lethargic and unrefined but it just throws WAVES of power at the wheels at such low rpm... It was a shock for me coming from the rev happy eager Ferrari V12s... I actually prefer the brute force Lambo delivery... << If memory serves me correctly, I found the Lamborghini engine to have plenty of life. Not at all lethargic or lazy. By the way, I'm comparing with the 550 Maranello V12. That rpm needle flies through the numbers on the Lamborghini. The feeling of speed is compounded by the rush of power from the car. I am definitely curious to see if E-Gear chews up the clutch though. If it indeed does, then it will definitely be testament to a very big design flaw. If it doesn't it will just go to show that a lot of folks don't exactly know how to preserve the clutch on a monster like this. Everyone's initial reaction is to floor the accelerator. Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 2125 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim, I put 23k km on my car. The clutch is indeed a hydraulically actuated clutch. I was told it was to make the car more driveable and also to make it easy to find the friction point. If you give minimal gas (1k rpm) as the friction point engages, the car can go up hills easily. From a stop you can even let go without hitting the gas at all. Going to and fro on an incline? Ouch. Never done that so I can't comment. Diablos supposedly also have the mythic butter clutch that lasts 3k miles tops. Haven't personally seen this kind of behavior out of Diablos either. Although the stories are prevalent. If you ride the clutch it will of course give out, but that's with any car. I have yet to burn through a clutch in any of my cars. Barchetta? Hmmm... Yes please! Cheers | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 843 Registered: 2-2002 |
Jim - next time you get behind the wheel of a Murcie push the clutch down without turning the key - do it with the car completely dead. That will tell you REAL weight of the clutch and also give an indication of just how much hydraulics (?) are doing for you. The unassisted weight is pretty significant - think F40.... With soo much hydraulic assistance I think the clutch is really open to abuse from mechanically unsympathetic owners. E-Gear can only worsen matters IMO. Nonetheless the actual shift is quicker than a modern Ferrari V12... My overiding memory of the car is 'WHAT an engine!' That Lamborghini V12 is lazy, lethargic and unrefined but it just throws WAVES of power at the wheels at such low rpm... It was a shock for me coming from the rev happy eager Ferrari V12s... I actually prefer the brute force Lambo delivery... One more tidbit of info - there WILL be Murcielago Barchetta soon (under 2 years) - the thing is no-one know whether it will be a 'convertible' (360 Spider) or permanent open top (550 Barchetta)..... One of my customers has this car on order already. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2635 Registered: 10-2002 |
Manu That's some story! Has anyone had any clutch experiences like this? If it's such a weak link than eshift would eat it up worse. Is that why the clutch is so overassisted? | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 842 Registered: 2-2002 |
Jim/Taek - an anecdote for you: A Murcielago had just had some work done and among these things was a new clutch (UK Price in USD $9500!) . The transporter that would be used to deliver the car arrived to collect the car. The collection driver took far too long to get the Murcielago to crawl up the trailer (which was not flat load). I kid you not - in just 3 minutes of to-ing and fro-ing the car started smoking and the clutch was junk..... DEAD. I am seriously considering the purchase of this car one day in the future - but I cannot get over the overassistance in the clutch. There is IMO no *FEEL* in the pedal - there is supposed to be a trick to idling the car off the line without stalling - something I have almost got the hang of.. BUT I know a few owners of both LHD and RHD examples that have moaned to me of a clutch life of under 1000 miles. I honestly think that 1st gear may be too long and causes a lot of drag on the drivetrain. With the front wheels in anything but the straight ahead position the car struggles to idle off the line (you can hear/see the ECU blipping the throttle to prevent stalling). Speak to the Lamborghini importer in the UK and they will recommend this as the best way of extending the clutch life on this car. Think about it - massive power, 1800kg, 4wd, MASSIVE tires, and therefore IMMENSE traction... pull away aggressively and the only thing that can spin is the clutch... so it does.... This is an AWESOME but flawed car. I never driven a car which fires torque at the wheels in such a *seemingly lethargic* way. The engine felt quite slow to rev (unlike Ferrari V12s) probably as a function of the super tall gearing but at 2750rpm the way it pulled was incredible. BTW - one of my customers has a Satellite GPS Police Camera and radar detection mechanism which also displays the ACTUAL speed as per the GPS as opposed to the inaccurate speedometer... He saw a massive actual 210mph out of it.... WOW. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 2122 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim, You're absolutely right. These are cars. There really is no excuse for all of the things you've mentioned. These should be streetable machines. Instead they've just become toys. I came to accept that, which is why I got to enjoy the car so much. I'm sure that if I analyzed it as a rational capable car I would have cried the entire drive home. I excused the light clutch thinking it was the engineers trying to design a car that people can live with as a daily driver. I never had a use for the storage but I did go under the assumption that there would be space for stuff. I'm sure that if I had kept the car longer it would only be a matter of time when I jumped in the car and tried to figure out where to put my junk. I agree that the useable space in these cars is getting ridiculously small. I sort of understand from a design aspect, but lack of compartments in the interior is silly at best. Even in the Porsche, which I consider the most civil of these machines, the space is limited. I used the back "seats" for throwing my camera, notepads or what have you. Even my car documentation I kept in the "trunk". I don't think I ever used my glovebox. The only thing I really thought was cool from a storage perspective was the little tray in the underside of the steering column. Good for insurance papers and miscellaneous stuff, although an eyesore. Would have been better if they made some sort of makeshift closure flap. Cheers | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2630 Registered: 10-2002 |
Taek The weird thing to me is it's almost as if the designer's never try to use these things as cars. The glove box in my Maser is too small for the owners manual. The tops on 360's don't seem to work. The turn signal buttons on the Enzo are too easy to hit by mistake. The front overhang makes the Enzo tough on the street. The Murcie has no glove box. etc,etc,etc. IMHO stat's are one thing but a usable reliable vehicle has it's attractions. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1625 Registered: 8-2001 |
I think the F1 clutch burning issue is way over blown. I've had the contaminated friction disc replaced when the rear main seal leaked and that's it. Other local 360 F1 owners I know have not reported clutch burning. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 2121 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim, You will be hard pressed to find a car that's tourquey compared to that GT40!! The 4wd does seem to sap power from the line, but its still tourquier than just about any road legal machine. For me it was a welcome feature though. When that much power is being thrown at the drivetrain I prefer the 4wd to aid a bit in wheelspin. I agree the car is heavy, but it didn't quite feel so much so. I felt it was comparatively quite tossable. Then again, I'm not accustomed to driving purpose built track legends. I'm pretty sure its my lack of aggressive driving skill or just plain fear, but I found it hard to find the limits of the car. No, I'm not talking about 150mph turns, but more along the lines of exit ramps taken at speeds greater than the indicated 25mph etc. The gated shifter takes some getting used to but I'm a sucker for the novelty aspect of the clik clak of the shifting and is also applicable to the Ferraris. A far departure from the rather ropey Porsche stick. I typically hand over all my junk to my wife when I jump in the car so compartments were never much of a concern for me, but I can definitely see how it could be a pain. Manu, Given the car's power and ease of clutch actuation (because its so light finding the friction point is quite easy) I don't particularly see how one could burn out the clutch in minutes until its purposely done. All in all. Fun fun car! Cheers | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6598 Registered: 8-2002 |
Adam... Call it a hunch, but call Lamborghini of Palo Alto if you want to inquire about a Murcielago Barchetta with e-gear... i think they'd know something... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2627 Registered: 10-2002 |
Manu I'm confused. The one I drove didn't feel like you could burn the clutch out. With 4 wheel drive it didn't seem particularly torquey either. (At least compared to my GT40) It's a very heavy car. More of a cruiser than a tossable sportscar like the 360 ot the Gallardo. The gated shifter worked fine but was a bit slow to get around. That's why I'd get Egear. You could shift much faster. I liked it but unless they added interior storage space I wouldn't buy one. | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 841 Registered: 2-2002 |
This car has a to be driven VERY carefully with the conventional manual clutch otherwise you can burn it out in MINUTES.... With a the historical trend of F1 gearboxes etc burning their clutches out before their manual equivalents I would be inclined to give the Murcielago E-gear a wide birth. The overassisted clutch is a downer on the stock car but nonethless the Murcielago is a GREAT machine (more exciting than any current production Ferrari by MILES) with a very co-operative shift already and one of the torquiest engines I have ever expereinced - why would you want to RUIN it with an F1 box? All in my opinion of course! | ||
| Jean-Louis (Jlm348)
Member Username: Jlm348 Post Number: 695 Registered: 11-2002 |
Adam, no price. it looks like a factory picture. Adam if I had the choice to have any car in the world it would be that car with e-gear. maybe in a different color, but definetly that car. | ||
| Adam (Fasttalk)
Member Username: Fasttalk Post Number: 261 Registered: 8-2002 |
JL, I will check it out, any idea how much? | ||
| Jean-Louis (Jlm348)
Member Username: Jlm348 Post Number: 693 Registered: 11-2002 |
Adam there is a picture of a yellow one on page 5 of the October Dupont Registry. Palo Alto Lamborghini is advertising it. | ||
| Tyson Hall (Trhall)
Member Username: Trhall Post Number: 419 Registered: 6-2003 |
According to this weeks Auto Week a Murcielago roadster can be expected in mid 04 | ||
| Adam (Fasttalk)
Member Username: Fasttalk Post Number: 259 Registered: 8-2002 |
I think it will be a couple of years for the convertible. not sure if I can wait that long. Adam | ||
| Jean-Louis (Jlm348)
Member Username: Jlm348 Post Number: 690 Registered: 11-2002 |
Adam why not wait a little longer nd get an e-gear barchetta murcielago. that way you stil will have a convertible? That would be my choice. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2613 Registered: 10-2002 |
Adam The 2 things I"ve come to like very much are Egear/FI and a nav system. Last sat I had a long drive in a Murcie. I think it's an excellent GT/Crusier. It a big car and very smooth. Some cars feel like they want to be E drive and this is one of them. The clutch is so overassisted in the 6 speed I drove I didn't like it. The linkage was very good however. My only complaint is lack of glovebox storage room for even a cell phone or sunglasses. For long trips I'd also get a nav system. I love the one in my Maser and my wife's Cayanne. Before I tried an Eshift I didn't think I'd like it and I love the stick in my GT40 and P4 but on these modern super GT's IMHO Eshift is the way to go. | ||
| Adam (Fasttalk)
Member Username: Fasttalk Post Number: 255 Registered: 8-2002 |
Just visited the dealer, it is is 10K option, what do you think? delivery in Jan '04. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6561 Registered: 8-2002 |
Adam, so they ARE putting the e-gear in new Murcielagos...? What brought about this decision...? i thought they were only coming in manual transmissions...? | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 975 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yes, the pictures of the e-gear Murci are from the show. The black Murci is in Japan. | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 108 Registered: 5-2003 |
This is the Gallardo interior:  aehaas | ||
| Adam (Fasttalk)
Member Username: Fasttalk Post Number: 254 Registered: 8-2002 |
OK, I just spoke to Lamborghini BH, These are photos of a Murci with Egear that was released in Frankfurt last week. The other photos he posted with the red interior are of a different car. LBH ltold me that they will be getting the Murci E-gear at the end of the year. They are getting me a price I think the F360 Spider may have to go  Adam | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6551 Registered: 8-2002 |
These look like pictures from two separate places... i, too, was under the impression that e-gear was only an option on the Gallardo... Also, in the top two pictures, the Murcielago has a red interior... In the bottom two pictures, the Gallardo has what appears to be a white and grey or white and blue interior... Two different cars, entirely... | ||
| Aaron Williams (Aawil)
Member Username: Aawil Post Number: 325 Registered: 8-2002 |
E-gear is only on the gallardo right now i think. At least when it comes out. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 209 Registered: 2-2003 |
e-gear is factory. It is supose to be really good (so say magazines) | ||
| Adam (Fasttalk)
Member Username: Fasttalk Post Number: 253 Registered: 8-2002 |
Is e-gear on a Murci factory or custom? | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 953 Registered: 6-2002 |
Few pics with e-gear, and a cool custom Murci.     |