Fraud in the Dino Auction Action? Not good for buyers & sellers | FerrariChat

Fraud in the Dino Auction Action? Not good for buyers & sellers

Discussion in '206/246' started by dinogts, May 9, 2007.

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  1. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Most of us by now are aware that the Ponder 246GTS sold for $187,000 (including commission) at RM's Ponder Collection Auction. My question is, how much fraud, AND BY WHOM, was involved? "None," you say, well . . . .

    The car was described as having an odometer showing 4,284 miles "believed to be original," a "superb and highly original example that, aside from a repaint in the original rosso corsa, remains completely unrestored."

    The internet link <http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails...P07&CarID=r116> states very clearly, and I quote:

    "The interior is all original, with black seats and red inserts, power windows, air conditioning and a Blauplunkt stereo. A very rare option, the Dino is believed to have been originally delivered with Borrani wire wheels, and including the spare in the front, retains all five. Mr. Ponder purchased the Dino for the collection over 15 years ago and has driven it only sparingly since then, maintaining its outstanding authentic and correct overall condition."


    "With 4,284 miles, believed to be original registered on the odometer, the Dino shows only minimal wear in both the interior and the engine bay. Remarkably preserved, overall the 246 GTS displays a quality of fit and finish that a Ferrari with less than 5,000 miles should."


    According to Rick Carey's analysis of the auction that appears in the May 5, 2007 issue of the Ferrari Market Letter:

    At the 1996 Kruse Scottsdale auction, this Dino had "rust blooming in the door bottoms. There was no mention of the Borrani wires, suggesting that it was riding on alloy wheels, nor of the then-evident mileage. It sold for $53,000 then."

    According to Carey's story, the same car had appeared for sale by European Auto in 1995 in the FML "with 103,000 miles."

    Others here have pointed out many obvious incorrect items on the car (see the thread started by synchro here on FerrariChat "Ponder Dino for auction - No Reserve" and all of the postings there about incorrect door panels, the incorrect steering wheel, non-original seat covers, incorrect shift knob, incorrect location for the Pininfarina badge, etc.).

    In the end, all of these add up to a car that I cannot imagine a legitimate seller would have described as "completely unrestored."

    More importantly, if this Dino had 103,000 miles on the odometer in 1995 as reported by Rick Carey, then how the H*LL can the seller and the auction house claim with a straight face that the car had "4,284 miles, believed to be original registered on the odometer," unless they really, really, REALLY meant that the current odometer itself has "4,284 miles," and to H*LL with the rest of the car. (ROARING LAUGHTER IN THE BACKGROUND)

    Right about now I want to puke.

    Now, under Washington law (and in most other states) it sure would seem that the buyer would have a classic action in tort for fraud or misrepresentation. The basic elements of such an action include misrepresentation, deceit, or fraud in the inducement where a persion has been misled by a false statement which caused a plaintiff to suffer foreseeable monetary damages. A false statement of a material fact by a defendant seller with actual or constructive knowledge of its falsity, or an action such as turning back a car's odometer, may be sufficient.

    The specific kind of active representations made in the associated auction materials (mileage, completely never restored, etc.,) need to be distinguished from puffing, general sales talk, curbside subjective opinions which generally do not rise by themselves to fraud or misrepresentation. And, this situation also differs from nondisclosure, which usually does not constitute deceit -- "caveat emptor" is the general rule in nondisclosure cases.

    Now, what about remedies?

    Well, they could include damages for the benefit of the bargain, to put the buyer in the same position as if the representations were all true. Or, rescision of the transaction and recovery of the money paid in restitution.

    Theories other than tort misrepresentation/fraud might also apply, and include negligent representation and active concealment.

    This type of situation truly sucks for both buyers and sellers as it undermines the interests of buyers and sellers in legitimate auction arenas, in dealer transactions, and in private party sales.

    Mark (who is now well and truly P*SSED OFF)
     
  2. yasmin

    yasmin Formula Junior

    You don't have to scratch too deep to confirm your story.
    If you search 'Ponder' on the Dino Register database it comes up with chassis # 07902.
    First registered owner, Mike Wardlow, 'original Cromodora wheels' and a registered mileage 72,920 in 1984.
    In july 95 it had a registered mileage of 103,000.
     
  3. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
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    Tim Keseluk
    Sounds like a mess.

    Who bought the car? Did the sale really close?

    If there has been fraud (or some other impropriety) it's really between buyer and seller.
     
  4. open roads

    open roads F1 Rookie

    Jan 28, 2007
    3,798
    Sarasota, Fl.
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    Stan
    I'm suprised by RM Auctions. I can believe that someone without all this knowledge might look at the car and the odometer and "believe" it to be a true indication of the cars milage. This same person, nor anyone else, failed to make any attempt to validate this apparently. So that they "believed" it.

    The statement of fact "all original interior" is probbly a really bad mistake. I believe this because RM has nothing really to gain from misrepresentation. They have much more at stake than that.
     
  5. MRONY

    MRONY Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2007
    707
    New York City
    Full Name:
    Mike O.
    I don't know -- I just bought a Dino and though I could not get out to see it before I paid for it, I at least asked around, and even called the two previous owners to confirm the info I was given as best as I could. Dinos are old, but not so old that all the original owners are dead yet! The Ponder Dino seems to have sold to someone who wanted it despite what you all say is obviously misleading or simply wrong information, or to someone who just took RM's word for it entirely, and didn't even bother with the most cursory check. I haven't seen their catalogue or sales contract, but I'd bet it's full of eight million disclaimers and clauses that sign away a buyer's rights!!

    The only other thing I would say is that alleging tortious fraud on a public web forum probably isn't the smartest thing to do -- I'm no lawyer, but if something looks likely to head to litigation, why stick your nose in? These days, it seems being sued or threatened with litigation, even if you are simply stating the truth, is hardly uncommon!
     
  6. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Great investigative work.


    A very perceptive question that comes one step away from alluding to shill bidding at major auctions. Do we need a Keith Martin style opinion? (ducking for cover...)
     
  7. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    I made no specific allegations of fraud, I only asked a question, then pointed to some widely reported comments about this particular Dino that appeared on FerrariChat and in the Ferrari Market Letter, and offered my personal opinion and expressed my personal disgust. And, with respect to sticking my nose into this mess, I firmly believe that this type of situation needs to be publicized to protect legitimate owners, sellers, and buyers from potential fraud and abuse, and that this is the perfect forum within which to do so. Heck, if people on FerrariChat go on and on about whether a Dino tool roll or a Dino pouch was a reproduction, or whether LSR was committing fraud or not on items worth a few thousand dollars, then why shouldn't there be an open and frank discussion about a transaction that was within a hair's width of $200,000?

    In addition, as mentioned by Yasmin above, there is a lot of information available about this Dino on dinoregister.com. If you look this car up (serial # 07902) on dinoregister (searching either Ponder or the serial # that was provided in the RM Auctions listing) you will find that this Dino's first entry shows it was owned from 1983 to 1995 by Mike and Donna Wardlow, that it had Standard Cromodora Wheels (NOT BORRANIS) at the time, and had 72,920 miles in 1984. The badge bar/grilleguard was on the car at that time.

    The second entry shows that it was at European Auto Restoration in Costa Mesa, CA, and was for sale in July 1995 with an indicated 103,000 miles, and was still listed as having Standard Cromodora Wheels.

    So, again, how could anyone claim that this car has 4,284 miles "believed to be original registered on the odometer" and "believed to have been originally delivered with Borrani wire wheels" with a straight face?

    Mark (now that you mention it, I AM an attorney)
     
  8. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 F1 Rookie

    Oct 16, 2001
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    e sempre incinta
    It is sad that this kind of thing happens, but look how easy it is to find out info on these cars. One click of the button and you can have most of the cars history. When shelling out that kind of money you would think that the buyer (bidders) would do their homework. It would be just as easy for an auction house to do the same...
     
  9. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Who knows what the buyer knew? But, RM and the seller? RM is in the business, and the seller, well . . . .

    Mark
     
  10. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 F1 Rookie

    Oct 16, 2001
    4,995
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    That's the point. It is relatively easy for anyone to find out about these cars specifically. There is no excuse for the buyer or the seller to make wild claims of originality, when in less then 5 minutes the entire history of the car can appear on your computer screen.
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    I must say that based on your post I am stunned!

    Best
     
  12. flaviaman

    flaviaman Formula Junior

    Jul 26, 2005
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    Vernonia, OR
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    Gregg
    Mark:

    How many times have I told you not to believe speedo's or claims about Ferrari's (or Dino's for that matter....)

    Regrettably this type of thing is far too commonplace, and in the late 80's it was truly out of control...

    Don't be pissed, time to open a bottle of the Leonetti on such a fine day...

    Cheers

    Gregg
     
  13. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    I love Jim's sense of humor.
     
  14. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed


    Gregg:

    Mighty fine day in Seattle, and I assume, a fine day in Portland, OR (and the surroundings).

    Speaking of Leonetti, J. and I had a great time this past weekend in Walla Walla for the Spring Wine Release . . . . Came back with 8 cases . . . .

    Mark
     
  15. flaviaman

    flaviaman Formula Junior

    Jul 26, 2005
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    Vernonia, OR
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    Gregg
    Excellent!

    Salute!

    GNR
     
  16. 4redno

    4redno Formula 3

    Mar 21, 2006
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    Keith Mitchell Wintraub
    Mark:

    Thanks for shedding light on this. Having been to dozens of auto auctions through the years here and abroad, I kick myself for not buying cars in the 90s which are now out of sight financially. However, I doubt I could have pulled the trigger on cars at any of those auctions because I'm the kind of buyer who needs to research and thoroughly inspect a car before I buy it. Lots of savvy buyers are willing to take the plunge at an auction in the absence of that information - for better or for worse.

    While I'm not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV), I know that auctions are all about caveat emptor (buyer beware). However, when Christie’s withdrew the 1939 Auto Union from their showcase Retromobile auction at the last minute, I believe they showed a lot of integrity and ultimately got the story straight. While a Ferrari Dino is not in the same galaxy as that car, RM and/or the seller could have taken a page from Christie's, uncovered this information in advance of the auction and represented the car accordingly.

    That being said, caveat emptor dictates that buyers need to do their homework to properly value a car and bid accordingly at an auction. If I were the buyer, I would be ticked off with RM and the seller but most of all, with myself. Then again, how unhappy can you be when you own a Ferrari Dino!
     
  17. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Mark, you've got an extra bottle of Leonetti?

    I couldn't coax Mark to take me as one of his guests to Spring release last weekend...I need to work another angle on this, perhaps Julie is so very kind~!

    PS - Perhaps you'll bring a bottle for our wine and cheese club party on my 3 day FCA trip to Victoria, CDN Aug 3-5th?
    BTW, watch this weeks email for final details on the trip.
     
  18. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    "The lure of easy money has a very strong appeal"
    Glenn Frey - Smuggler's Blues
     
  19. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,799
    Santa Fe, NM
    it has been awhile since I had to look into this, but doesn't caveat emptor apply when the seller is silent on a particular issue? I don't believe caveat emptor applies when the seller makes an affirmative, yet completely false, statement of fact regarding a material issue that is the basis of the bargain; that = fraudulent misrepresentation and I don't believe that caveat emptor is a defense to a claim of FM.
     
  20. 4redno

    4redno Formula 3

    Mar 21, 2006
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    Interesting. Perhaps that is why Christie's had to pull the 1939 GP car until they got the facts straight. I'd be interested in looking at the agreement you sign when you register to bid at an auction - it's been a while. This makes me want to go to law school! I can't imagine I'd be the only 40 year old in a freshman class!
     
  21. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Dec 29, 2006
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    Several years ago I helped two customers take 2 Jaguar XK120's to auction. One car a Drophead Coupe, older cosmetic restoration, nice but not original color paint, minimal documentation. The second car a Roadster, complete nut and bolt matching numbers restoration, correct color, over $70K in recent receipts. Both cars shipped together to the auction.

    The box of receipts went with the wrong car when they arrived.

    The Drophead sold for around $85K (easily $30K more than the seller expected).

    The Roadster had trouble getting to $60K because of the missing papers, the deal never closed and the seller ended up relisting at another auction 6 months later after the papers were returned.

    The auction house was not too helpful.
     
  22. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Bryan -

    You are correct - caveat emptor DOES NOT APPLY to an affirmative claim, completely false, regarding an essential element of the bargain which the seller knows (or should have known) that a buyer would rely upon (reliance - a belief which motivates an act, Berry v. Robotka, 9 Ariz.App. 461, 453 P.2d 972, 979.), and is not a defense to a claim of FM.

    Mark
     
  23. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    Nov 4, 2003
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    regardless of all the legal reasons there may be a problem, we have to consider the "seller" and the auction company. it would be hard for anyone to argue the seller didn't mislead the auction company.

    i don't know how there are this many problems, but the description cleary says the "seller" acquired this this car 15 years ago for the collection. clearly, this isn't the case.

    we have already debated the issues with the car.

    it seems to me, that any real buyer should have accepted the car as is when they bid. no doubt, there is some murkyness, but the car is what it is. it will be very tough to prove that the seller mislead the auction company.

    in this case, the seller disclosed so many relevant things, why would he hide this? it makes no sense, unless he, himself, had been mislead.
     
  24. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Dec 29, 2006
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    Is it possible that there are two cars?

    There are so many glaring inconsistencies that it seems there must be.
     
  25. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    Am I missing something here? At one point you state that "it would be hard for anyone to argue the seller didn't mislead the auction company" and then three sentences later you state that "it will be very tough to prove that the seller mislead (sic) the auction company."

    "SOME murkyness (sic)?" I would suggest that being off by over 99,000 miles is a little more than "SOME murkyness." I don't see how it would be so tough to prove that the seller misled RM and that RM should have known about the affirmative misrepresentation in any event. Remember, the mileage claim is clearly an affirmative claim, and not an issue of nondisclosure, and thus, caveat emptor would not generally be a defense.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but RM is in the business, and the catalog description shows that SOMEONE put more than a little effort in researching the general history of the 206 and the 246. Are we really supposed to believe that RM is apparently absolutely clueless and so naive that it could have missed the obvious issues (at least to us) concerning this Dino? If that is in fact the answer, it doesn't say much of anything favorable for RM.

    With respect to "as is," you still can't make demonstrably false affirmative claims (especially in writing), and then try to hide under the "believed to be" and "as is" cloaks). I'd sure like to meet the person who supposedly "believed to be . . . ." I have a nice pointy cap waiting for him/her. (BTW, I've got a nice "believed to be" Bugatti sitting in my garage - maybe RM will be willing to handle its auction for me too???)

    To suggest that "any real buyer should have accepted the car as is when they bid" would truly destroy the market in instances of clearly false affirmative claims (as opposed to nondisclosure issues). Would anyone really believe that if I falsely claimed to have title to a car and then sold it at auction that I should, and would, be protected by claiming that the car was "sold as is?" How about if I put it in writing that my "believed to be Bugatti" had the engine rebuilt 500 miles ago, when in fact it was rebuilt 55,000 miles ago, which you discovered when it blew up while loading it into your car hauler after you bought it from me at auction?

    With respect to the seller disclosing "so many relevant things," I am having a hard time sorting out what the seller disclosed that was correct, other than that the car is red, had been repainted, has an engine, and four tires/wheels and a spare, and THAT is just about it. Much of everything else "disclosed" about this car pretty much appears to be incorrect or false.

    As to why any seller or auction house would have hidden anything, I think that the answer is pretty self-evident. A $135,000 car (and that is being generous) falls into a time warp and miraculously comes out worth $187,000 and minus 99,000 miles? That seems to me like $50,000+ worth of motivation.

    When all is said and done, does this mean that a no BS (but not necessarily perfect) 246GTS is really worth $200,000+?

    Mark
     

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