Go Back   FerrariChat.com > Model Specific Discussions > 206/246

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 11-29-2010, 08:35 PM
Karting
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 127
Looking to reproduce Dino Door Pockets

While Rob 'Nuvolari' takes care of the mechanical components for our recently started Dino restoration, I am attending to refurbishment/replacement of body and trim items.

As most of you know there are several cosmetic parts which are either NLA, or available only as reproductions not faithful to the orginal items. One such component are the interior door pockets which came on the M-series and later cars. In most cars these are usually damaged/cracked and accurate reproductions are not available from any vendor.

I have already spoken with a few companies about the possibility of having exact copies (including the metal trim) of the door pockets produced. Among those I have been communicating with has been F-chat's own Verell (unobtaniumsupply.com). Verell's reputation on F-chat speaks for itself. He has been receptive to the idea and shares my conviction that the parts either be reproduced precisely or not at all.

Having done my initial research I would now be interested in hearing from the f-chat community to see if there would be enough interest to justify pursuing this project further. Based on my initial conversations with Verell and others I would anticipate the finished cost of these to be approx. $350-$400 per set. If at this price point there is sufficient interest to proceed I would then get confirmed orders and would require an undamaged original from which to create the mold (left and right pockets are identical). The original would be absolutely undamaged and would be returned. No idea yet on lead times as I am trying to gauge interest before proceeding further.

Best Regards,
Paul
Reply With Quote
Non-Sponsor Ads
  #2  
Old 11-29-2010, 09:55 PM
HMB-Dino's Avatar
Formula 3
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pebble Beach, CA
Full Name: RonG
Posts: 1,615
My recently acquired 71 Euro Dino GT (M-series) was in the Anthony Wang collection for 20yrs. Its door pockets look pretty new, and do have the metal trim on them. So how I determine if they're original or not-so-accurate repros?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-30-2010, 02:55 AM
mechaniker's Avatar
Formula Junior
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 361
Aren´t they the same as used in an old Fiat 500 ?

I think, they are still available new.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-30-2010, 07:45 AM
Nuvolari's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Toronto / SoCal
Full Name: Rob C.
Posts: 4,485
The Fiat 500 pockets are the ones most vendors sell. They are similar in size and shape but the finish is well off and they have no metal trim. As such they are far from an accurate replacement.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-30-2010, 08:08 AM
Karting
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 127
HMB-Dino, don't yet know how to post photos so I will provide a verbal description. The metal trim strip is near the upper edge of the pockets. The area above the strip has a pattern of horizontal lines molded into the plastic. The area below the metal strip has a very lightly grained pattern. The repros look nothing like this so it should be immediately obvious which ones you have based on the above description.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-30-2010, 08:20 AM
GermanDino's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany
Full Name: Matthias
Posts: 2,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosemeyer View Post
While Rob 'Nuvolari' takes care of the mechanical components for our recently started Dino restoration, I am attending to refurbishment/replacement of body and trim items.

As most of you know there are several cosmetic parts which are either NLA, or available only as reproductions not faithful to the orginal items. One such component are the interior door pockets which came on the M-series and later cars. In most cars these are usually damaged/cracked and accurate reproductions are not available from any vendor.

I have already spoken with a few companies about the possibility of having exact copies (including the metal trim) of the door pockets produced. Among those I have been communicating with has been F-chat's own Verell (unobtaniumsupply.com). Verell's reputation on F-chat speaks for itself. He has been receptive to the idea and shares my conviction that the parts either be reproduced precisely or not at all.

Having done my initial research I would now be interested in hearing from the f-chat community to see if there would be enough interest to justify pursuing this project further. Based on my initial conversations with Verell and others I would anticipate the finished cost of these to be approx. $350-$400 per set. If at this price point there is sufficient interest to proceed I would then get confirmed orders and would require an undamaged original from which to create the mold (left and right pockets are identical). The original would be absolutely undamaged and would be returned. No idea yet on lead times as I am trying to gauge interest before proceeding further.

Best Regards,
Paul
Hello Paul,
would be great to have original looking replacements. You are right, everything you get these days are non acceptable replacements.
If you can get the price down to $ 250,- per pair I think this could interest a few guys.
Maybe you can get a deal with one of the big parts supplier and so reduce costs further.
These things crack quite often, there should be a market for a quality replacement.
I would certainly buy one or two sets.
Regards Matthias
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-30-2010, 09:13 AM
Karting
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 127
Matthias,

I would like to see the cost as low as possible as well. I did want to mention that the price I suggested represents zero profit for me and only a modest one for the company/person doing the manufacturing. I simply want to make available a product which I think the Dino community could use. You only need to look at the cost of other low-volume reproduction plastic parts to see how reasonable (in a relative sense at least) the cost is for parts of this size and this production quantity

The problem with higher volumes is that while it reduces your piece price you require more expensive/advanced tooling and production techniques which raises your up front costs significantly. It is all about balancing conflicting considerations in order to make the project viable at a price we can live with.

Best Regards,
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-30-2010, 10:09 AM
synchro's Avatar
F1 Veteran
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Seattle&PHXpǝ&#
Full Name: Scott
Posts: 8,623
I'm in

PS - I think you should have made this post a poll so you could get an easy tally
Reply With Quote
Non-Sponsor Ads
  #9  
Old 11-30-2010, 10:14 AM
Verell's Avatar
F1 Veteran
Consultant
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Groton, MA
Full Name: Verell Boaen
Posts: 6,898
Plastic parts are only cheap with make in very high volumes. Try pricing a comparable door panel for a current production car. It will be around $100 - $150, and those parts are run off a thousand or so at a time.

This is a pretty big piece of plastic. The mold as I envision it would take me something like 12 to 16 hours to make, would make 1 - 2 parts/day & would be good for a run of 30 to 40 parts.

A machined injection mold would cost in the ballpark of $10K to $20K and would have a lifetime of 1000 or more parts. You would still have to find a plastic shop that would be willing to run off a relatively small run (20-50 or so) parts. Even so, I think the run setup & mold amortization costs would still put the final cost into the ballpark rosemeyer are discussing, or even higher.
__________________
When it's NLA, Who do you call? Unobtainium Supply Co.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-30-2010, 10:56 AM
GermanDino's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany
Full Name: Matthias
Posts: 2,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosemeyer View Post
Matthias,

I would like to see the cost as low as possible as well. I did want to mention that the price I suggested represents zero profit for me and only a modest one for the company/person doing the manufacturing. I simply want to make available a product which I think the Dino community could use. You only need to look at the cost of other low-volume reproduction plastic parts to see how reasonable (in a relative sense at least) the cost is for parts of this size and this production quantity

The problem with higher volumes is that while it reduces your piece price you require more expensive/advanced tooling and production techniques which raises your up front costs significantly. It is all about balancing conflicting considerations in order to make the project viable at a price we can live with.

Best Regards,
Paul
ok, understood, regards Matthias
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-30-2010, 02:00 PM
HMB-Dino's Avatar
Formula 3
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pebble Beach, CA
Full Name: RonG
Posts: 1,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosemeyer View Post
HMB-Dino, don't yet know how to post photos so I will provide a verbal description. The metal trim strip is near the upper edge of the pockets. The area above the strip has a pattern of horizontal lines molded into the plastic. The area below the metal strip has a very lightly grained pattern. The repros look nothing like this so it should be immediately obvious which ones you have based on the above description.
I'll have to look and take a couple pix of mine when I get home, but your description sounds familiar. But then again, the door pockets aren't something I ever really notice when I enter/exit the car.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-30-2010, 04:15 PM
Karting
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Full Name: Paul
Posts: 169
I had a similar problem: my E series came with two different door pockets; one original and one after market (the one I believe to be original has the metal band -stainless or spring steel?- with a small flat tag in the centre of the band see image, presumably to hold the band down? I wondering whether this is the “original” style. See images- 1st one is commonly available replacement (Fiat?) which doesn’t have the band or match the original. Next 2 are original I beleive and last one a file image of original from Abstamaria's car (I think).

In my case I purchased a second hand original pocket but as often happens, when the part arrived, while it was the real McCoy with metal band (no flat tag), the general condition was very much poorer than it appeared in the sellers image (this may not have been intentional). But I was still glad to get it.

I’ve removed the metal bands and am prepping/repainting the plastic to match then I’ll clean up the bands and refit; a fair bit of work.

Your idea for making up ‘originals’ has merit and I would be in for a couple of sets.
Paul.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-30-2010, 10:32 PM
HMB-Dino's Avatar
Formula 3
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pebble Beach, CA
Full Name: RonG
Posts: 1,615
I just checked my 71 Euro GT #01712 (early M-Series), and my door pockets seem to be the same as those you indicate are original except mine do not have the small piece midway along the metal strip. Inside the door pocket, I can feel some lettering/numbering, but wasn't sure how to remove the door pocket after removing the (2) visible screws and didn't want to force it just to get a `read' on the imprinting.

So the question is...are they originals or repros?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg EndView.jpg (92.3 KB, 950 views)
File Type: jpg SideView.jpg (88.6 KB, 945 views)
File Type: jpg CloseUp.jpg (76.3 KB, 943 views)

Last edited by HMB-Dino; 11-30-2010 at 10:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-30-2010, 10:52 PM
Formula 3
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,451
Is it possible to go back to the original manufacturer (if still in existence) and see if a run of these could be made? Maybe they still have the tooling for the door pockets. FIM made a run of the heat exchangers a few years back. You never know till you ask!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-30-2010, 11:01 PM
Karting
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 127
HMB, the photos posted by pk246gt and my earlier description tell the story. Yours are the originals. In the pics you can see the one without the metal strip is totally different than the correct ones.

BTW I have never seen the small tab on the metal strip either in photos or in person. This may be a production variant or may be something installed on this particular car to replace a damaged original. The pocket itself, however, is absolutely correct.

I appreciate replies from those who have expressed interest and would encourage anyone else considering these to post or PM me. Looks like we may already be at 5 or 6 sets. I am going to find out how many sets would be needed to make this work.

In the meantime, anyone with a pocket willing to loan for molding purposes please PM me. Because the molding process captures even the slightest flaw which then needs to be corrected, an NOS one still in unmolested factory wrapping would be preferred As mentioned earlier the original will be absolutely undamaged and will be returned.

Best Regards,
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-30-2010, 11:10 PM
Karting
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 127
racerboy, if someone has this info I'll be glad to call them in Italy myself.

One thing I learned while doing the intial research for this project is that Ferrari only gave a passing thought to spare parts availability back when these cars were new (some things never change?). Plastic parts in particular pose a problem today because they were typically produced as follows. At the end of a production run of a particular model Ferrai would order a modest overrun of parts to satisfy spare parts requirements. The tools would then be destroyed since tool steel was expensive and could be re-used.
Reply With Quote
Non-Sponsor Ads
  #17  
Old 12-01-2010, 02:16 AM
synchro's Avatar
F1 Veteran
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Seattle&PHXpǝ&#
Full Name: Scott
Posts: 8,623
Verell,

I understand what you are saying but there may a discrepancy in communication here. He doesn't want to repro the whole inner door panel but just the pocket. The pocket separates and attaches with 4 bolt on points.

Hope this helps clarify.

Scott


Quote:
Originally Posted by Verell View Post
Plastic parts are only cheap with make in very high volumes. Try pricing a comparable door panel for a current production car. It will be around $100 - $150, and those parts are run off a thousand or so at a time.

This is a pretty big piece of plastic. The mold as I envision it would take me something like 12 to 16 hours to make, would make 1 - 2 parts/day & would be good for a run of 30 to 40 parts.

A machined injection mold would cost in the ballpark of $10K to $20K and would have a lifetime of 1000 or more parts. You would still have to find a plastic shop that would be willing to run off a relatively small run (20-50 or so) parts. Even so, I think the run setup & mold amortization costs would still put the final cost into the ballpark rosemeyer are discussing, or even higher.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-01-2010, 02:25 AM
Karting
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Full Name: Paul
Posts: 169
removal

Ron, removal is by removal of the door card: the pockey comes with two studs at the bottom (so fixed through from from with screws and nuts at the back of the card.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-01-2010, 08:46 AM
HMB-Dino's Avatar
Formula 3
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pebble Beach, CA
Full Name: RonG
Posts: 1,615
Australia speak "door card" = American speak "door panel"?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-05-2010, 02:47 PM
Verell's Avatar
F1 Veteran
Consultant
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Groton, MA
Full Name: Verell Boaen
Posts: 6,898
Synchro,
There only discrepancy is that I should have typed:
"Try pricing a comparable door pocket..."
__________________
When it's NLA, Who do you call? Unobtainium Supply Co.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:45 PM.


FerrariChat.com has no association with Ferrari S.p.A.
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.