USAG tools in a Dino Tool Kit? | FerrariChat

USAG tools in a Dino Tool Kit?

Discussion in '206/246' started by dinogts, Dec 19, 2014.

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  1. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    A Dino tool kit is currently for sale/auction on eBay that has 4 USAG wrenches. The listing claims the Dino tool kit is "Original."

    I have owned several Dino tool kits, but I have never seen an "original" Dino tool kit with USAG wrenches. I am calling BS on the listing.

    Here is the listing:

    Ferrari 246 Dino Tool Kit Original | eBay

    What say you?
     
  2. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    This is what he wrote after my questioning:

    "Hello,

    The application is correct given that the size of each spanner is the same sizes of the spanners described in the official Dino owner's manual.

    Please check your owner's manual for the exact size details.

    It has been confirmed to me that USAG are top quality spanners and would be more than suitable for Concours judging or working on your car.

    Please let me know if you have any further questions.

    Best regards,"





    This is what I replied:

    "Thank you for your kind replay, but SIRCODIN and GEDORE, are the only two brands made for a Dino.
    USAG are definitely top quality spanners, but will not be suitable for Concours, as not the proper brand,
    even though they are the correct size.

    The screwdrivers look the part, but they are incorrect also as the shafts should run up the complete handle.
    It would be interesting to see a photo of the spark plug wrench.

    Of course it is your tool kit, and I am only trying to provide constructive criticism. I hope this does not offend you.
    Of course, I can send you photos of the proper tools.

    Any Dino owner would spot the issues. I restore the cars, so I do have some knowledge.

    Which series Dino is your tool kit for?

    Kind regards,



    Never heard back from him. :)

    Regards, Alberto
     
  3. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    Perhaps he would like one of my kits!!
     
  4. Bradley

    Bradley F1 Rookie

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    Fifteen thousand dollars?

    They better be original at that price, not just "close enough!"

    Buy the aftermarket tool kit on superformance.co.uk if you want "close enough." It certainly will not pass Concours, but at $2023, you can save over $12.000.

    Accessories & Tools for Ferrari 206 & 246 for Ferrari 206 & 246 - Superformance (Scroll down to "Original Style Tools.")

    Or, for only $311.75, you can get the "Leather Tool Kit," Accessories & Tools for Ferrari 308, 208, 288 GTO & F40 - Superformance
    which includes a genuine leather tool roll and all-BETA tools - which are far better quality than the originals. Certainly more than "good enough to work on your car," but not adequate for the Concours. . .

    I have no affiliation with superformance.co.uk except that I have been a very happy customer of theirs with several products that I have purchased from them.

    I am not recommending their aftermarket tool kits to everyone; all I am saying is that if you're going to buy a "good enough" tool kit, you can get much better for a hell of a lot less than $15,000.

    And I can certainly think of better uses for fifteen grand than to purchase crappy, not-quite-original tools, can't you?
     
  5. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    #5 TonyL, Dec 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Bradley, the tools that Superformance are selling are actually my tool kits I have made through nearly 18 months of trials, tribulations, heartache and a dogged determination not to be beaten. It has cost me a small fortune but I wasn't going to let some crappy set originally made by Ferraris suppliers beat me. In fact to replicate rubbish tools was very difficult and required some owners of original sets to entrust their prized possessions to me for copying.

    Mass producing them would be easy and possibly cost a fraction of the $2000 asking price from SF but these involved many disciplines from specialised mould and pattern makers, castings, machine shops, & hours of hand finished work to complete them.

    Whilst I agree you can spend the remainder on much better things, the tool kits I think are the closest you are ever going to get to an original set. I don't know of anybody else who has come close to making these so accurately. Please forgive me as I am not blowing my own trumpet here, but I started out making these for my car and it just exploded from there. It now proudly sits in the boot of my car and I am chuffed as hell with them.

    .

    I would be very surprised if a Concours judge did not look sympathetically on the tools as being within a gnats whatsit the same as an original set.

    Well worth saving $12,000

    The early e series tool pouch (tan lining) coming out in the new year will be an added bonus to Dino owners who lack tool kits for their particular cars.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. Bradley

    Bradley F1 Rookie

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    Well, I have to say that I am impressed!

    Certainly, I did not mean to say that the reproduction tools sold by superformance.co.uk weren't marvelous reproductions - only that $15,000 on eBay is too much to pay for tools that aren't really "original," as claimed.

    Reproducing scarce and nearly unobtainable tools so closely has got to be a true labor of love; if I had a Dino (I only wish!), I would definitely be proud to display your tool kit with my car. No doubt, it's well worth saving $12,000!
     
  7. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    If USAG tools are a bad idea, why would replica tools be much better? Or, why would replica tools meet judging standards but the USAG tools in the correct sizes would not? There is a difference between original tools, and those that are being passed off (potentially down the line) as original tools, isn't there?

    I mean, that's what gets all of those knocked off Gucci bags seized by Customs authorities around the world.

    Original tools are original. Others are, well, replicas, just as Kelmarks are replicas too.
     
  8. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    I think you miss the point dinogts, the USAG tools never belonged in the set originally supplied by Ferrari, also the ad is misleading which is what Bradley was alluding to.

    The sets I made are copies and clearly labelled "reproduction" but the accuracy of them is important to owners.

    The bags seized at customs are no doubt being sold as the branded name rather than a fake, nowhere have i ever stated i have found a unopened box of original tools in a unused warehouse in Italy!!

    If you want an original set then pay the $15K for them, if you want a very good copy for $12K less then buy a repro set and take the wife on holiday. Both ways you will win.
     
  9. Bradley

    Bradley F1 Rookie

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    I don't have a problem with Tony's reproductions that are sold at superformance.co.uk; in fact, I admire him for going to the time, expense and trouble. These are accurate reproductions that are sold as, and marked as, reproductions. As he said, if you want to save $13,000 and take the wife on holiday - plus have the closest thing to original in your boot - then these would be the ones to get.

    When some clown goes on eBay and says, "This one here is original (and is, therefore, worth $15,000, according to him) when most of us know that USAG tools are not the original item in a 246 tool kit, that's when I call fraud.
     
  10. ferrari-nut

    ferrari-nut Formula Junior

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    +1
     
  11. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Veteran
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    there are misdemeanors and there are felonies in concours judging.
    repro = misdemeanor
    usag = felony
     
  12. Bradley

    Bradley F1 Rookie

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    Maybe, according to certain judges.

    As far as I'm concerned, what should be a jailable felony is actually taking $15,000 from some sucker after advertising that your "Dino Tool Kit" is "Original" with USAG tools.

    Now, I've long given some thought to sewing up a black vinyl tool roll with, perhaps, XCelite screwdrivers, Snap-On wrenches, USAG or BETA pliers. . . just to have some good quality, similar tools to the originals that won't make me cry too much if they go missing.

    What I won't do, however, is claim that it's "original," or try to sell it as such for a vastly inflated price.
     
  13. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Veteran
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    yep, seller of $15k toolkit is definitely throwing junk in the pouch just to fill it out. he would do better to just sell what is original.
     
  14. Bradley

    Bradley F1 Rookie

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    Seems that Tony is not the only one making reproductions.

    I guess it's bound to happen when the original tools get priced out of bounds even for many Ferrari owners. . . As I said, I don't have a problem with it, if they're being sold as "reproductions," and are marked as such.

    Anyone know about this company? All repros, but I can't tell if they're marked or not. I hate to think that somebody is mass-producing them relatively cheaply and then selling them as originals!

    Tools | Perfect Reflection Products
     
  15. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Part of the confusion might be that USAG was an official Ferrari sponsor at one point.
     
  16. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    No, I haven't missed any points. However, I do admit to not seeing photos of any of your tools that are permanently marked or embossed REPRODUCTION. If they are, then please post some photos.

    Otherwise, a secondary seller WILL pass them off as a $10,000 to $15,000 original tool kit.
     
  17. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    #17 TonyL, Dec 26, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
    So what you are saying is that every re-manufactured repro part for the Dino or any other car come to that, according to dinogts, it should have "Reproduction" embossed over the item. Hardly necessary don't you think and a tad over the top.

    Thank you for the compliment on the accuracy of the tools in thinking they would pass as $15K originals that means a lot coming from you as I know you are a perfectionist. The general idea was to make them as exact as I possibly could in small quantities and going the extra 10% to achieve it; comparing the full kits re-made they have been extremely popular especially the new tan lined edition. Many owners now have complete kits whether they purchased individual items or the full set. These are / were only sold to Dino owners and as such not to people who would sell them on, if any person then decides to misrepresent them then that is for their conscience The amount made is hardly going to make a impact considering the dinos made!!

    If you have the arse ache about the items then come clean and say so and stop acting like the sniper on the grassy knoll.

    Tony
     
  18. Bradley

    Bradley F1 Rookie

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    True, as were BETA.

    Both USAG and BETA are arguably better quality tools than the actual originals that came in Dino and 3x8 tool kits.

    However, the premium is being paid for original tools, not for quality tools.

    As I mentioned before, superformance is selling an aftermarket tool kit with all-BETA tools. Not original to 308's, and not sold as such, either.

    Tony is selling reproductions as reproductions, to people who either can't find, can't afford, or just don't want to pay the price for original tools. There's no misrepresentation in what he's doing.

    I have given some thought to sewing a vinyl pouch as close as I can to an original 308 tool kit, and filling it with Xcelite screwdrivers, BETA or USAG wrenches, etc. Not that I'm going to claim it's original to anybody, much less sell it as such. I'd just like a nice substitute to drive around with in case I need the tools, as my own originals are becoming too valuable to use or carry.

    Elsewhere on ferrarichat, I've been criticized for not liking Ferrari "replicas," not even 3x8-based 288 GTO "recreations," or 250 GTE's re-made into fake 250 GTO's. (And don't even get me started on the Pontiac Fiero "tributes!")

    The trouble I have with these is that, with the possible exception of some "Meras," these are universally re-badged as something they're not. That's called fraud. And that's why I have a problem with a so-called "original" Dino tool kit carrying USAG wrenches (which aren't bad tools, actually) being offered for sale for $15,000. To my way of thinking, no set of about a dozen hand tools is worth 15 grand, but knowing that some people would pay that much just to have original tools, I think that the person who posted that eBay ad shared by the original poster ought to be brought to trial.
     
  19. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    Simply put, these repro tools, unless permanently marked as repro, aid and abet passing off. What is so hard to understand about that? Your defense that it isn't your fault, that it is solely the purchaser's fault if they are passed off as original to a subsequent naïve purchaser who might believe he or she purchased a Dino with original tools, or he or she purchased an original tool kit to complete his/her Dino, is a rationalization that producers of fake Gucci/Louis Vuitton/Coach handbags use to justify to themselves what they do.

    So far as your crude "arse ache" and "grassy knoll" reference and analogy, let me simply point out that you posted that the tools are "clearly labelled (sic) 'reproduction'" - yet now you are saying that it is somehow "over the top" to expect them to be marked that way? You don't see the contradiction in what you have posted?

    Now Bradley wrote "As I said, I don't have a problem with it, if they're being sold as 'reproductions,' and are MARKED as such." (emphasis added)

    So, are the tools marked as such or not?

    If not, then there is a serious risk of misrepresentation, whether YOU "intended" it or not.

    Finally, how could you possibly assert that I have somehow complimented you on the accuracy of your repro tools? Do you believe that by simply posting that such tools could easily be misrepresented and passed off as original to a subsequent naïve buyer somehow means that I think that your tools are indecipherable from original tools? I have no idea how accurate your tools are or aren't, since I have never knowingly seen any of your tools first-hand, and I don't know anyone who has purchased them.

    What do you think Rolex would say about a "perfect" repro watch? Even if there was only 1 made, and even if the ORIGINAL seller/manufacturer advertised it as a repro? Do you think that they'd let it slide? Heck, you might as well get into the Rolex watch repro business.

    I am no perfectionist, but I do have concerns about items that are produced that may easily lead to misrepresentation and passing off, especially when the person making the items knows that is a risk because they are advertised as being repro, but the seller then proceeds to claim cover by saying it isn't his fault if someone else further along the line is naïve enough to have bought them assuming them to be originals.
     
  20. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    A little devil's advocate here.
    Ferraris with ninety percent new pieces are embraced but new tools are anathema?

    As far as I'm concerned replica tools have their place but selling them as real is fraud.
     
  21. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    Let me be clear - I am not saying that replica "new" tools (especially if permanently marked) are anathema, but that selling them without concern that they could be passed off as original tools is a very Teflon coated slippery slope.
     
  22. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    We don't disagree.
     
  23. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    #23 TonyL, Dec 27, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
  24. Bradley

    Bradley F1 Rookie

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    That's where I stand, as well. Hell, nobody could own a 330GT, 250 Lusso or 275GTB today if it weren't for the enthusiasts who are remanufacturing parts for them.
     
  25. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    I think that there is some loss of perspective here, as the OP was about the legitimacy of USAG wrenches in a tool kit. The seller believes, and I think he has the right to sell whatever he pleases, stating however he desires, about the proper or improper application of his wrenches in the aforementioned tool kit.

    This goes without saying, that the screwdrivers are 100% WRONG. Evidently, the issue here is only the wrenches.

    This thread has lost all validity, as all of a sudden it has taken a turn into insults, anathemas, and issues of properly/improperly "labelled" tools, (correct British spelling).

    I was once sold an extremely crude wheel chock, that in photos looked perfect, but once received it looked as false as... (please fill in the blank).
    When confronted, the seller, who knew perfectly well about the provenance, proceeded to refund on something that was utter trash, or be subject to a potentially ruined reputation.
    Make amends, and you might be mercifully forgiven, but the memory is always there ;)

    Simply put, go back to the issue at hand, if you approve of the USAG toolkit, buy it, if not, then do not.
    But please start a new thread about these issues, or better yet, if so incensed about these matters write the 'powers that be', and ask them if the 'dubious' cars on occasional display at the Museum, at a time or another were marked "replica" or not.

    Is the drop dead gorgeous F-156 replica racing all over the world, stamped "REPLICA"?
    Yet it is admired and drooled upon as a true masterpiece in replication.
    Guest at Goodwood no less. No lawyers suing anybody over this, right?

    Mercedes is someone else that comes to mind with their incredible replica/repros. and here,
    we are spitting into the wind about someone that has taken the trouble to make some toolkits, which by the way are spectacularly produced?

    Maybe, I ought to have engraved "REPLICA" on my battery frames? Are the Lawyers going to accuse of 'misrepresentation'?

    Thailand is chock-full of replica Cartier, Rolex, etc. and they all look the part.

    Now, if you are clever enough to think that you can buy a Rolex that looks, weighs and for all practical purposes passes off as one, and gift it to a bimbo that knows if it says so, then it it must be so, then your $80 were very well spent, provided you do not marry.

    Buy the $15K toolkit and you are the bimbo. That, is the only point about this thread.

    As per post #2, the seller, never replied my query, as he knew perfectly well that he was misrepresenting.

    Toolkits, 'caveat emptor', do your homework and don't be a bimbo :)

    Regards, Alberto
     

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