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  #1  
Old 06-18-2017, 05:00 AM
Formula 3
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Location: Suffolk England
Full Name: Tony
Posts: 1,835
New ignition system?

Well after a several successful (although its rather fond of trashing coils) years of running the black stallion system, it seems to have developed a fault and without access to a old windows program I cannot see what is going on (thanks Microsoft) I am no geek on computers and don't understand compatibility modes either!!

Anybody have any suggestions on a replacement system. I have read some really old posts about this and am dithering which is the best option inc Adrians optical setup, I am not to keen about going back to the old centrifugal weights unless I can get them properly set up on a old Sun machine.

Anybody know who can do this in the UK?

All suggestions would be welcome :-)
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  #2  
Old 06-18-2017, 11:28 AM
Formula 3
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Laguna Beach, Ca
Full Name: Freeman Thomas
Posts: 1,676
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyL View Post
Well after a several successful (although its rather fond of trashing coils) years of running the black stallion system, it seems to have developed a fault and without access to a old windows program I cannot see what is going on (thanks Microsoft) I am no geek on computers and don't understand compatibility modes either!!

Anybody have any suggestions on a replacement system. I have read some really old posts about this and am dithering which is the best option inc Adrians optical setup, I am not to keen about going back to the old centrifugal weights unless I can get them properly set up on a old Sun machine.

Anybody know who can do this in the UK?

All suggestions would be welcome :-)

Tony,

No way am I in your league but I wanted to share my up to date experience with the Winterburn CD box Rebuilding a Dinoplex AEC103A

I installed it with the correct NOS Marelli points distributor when I still was using the DCNF's. Always instant starts hot or cold. Great performance throughout the rev range. I had researched replacing the troublesome optical trigger Crane Cams system with Adrian's system (which I still have packed away ready to install already built by Adrian in a Dinoplex box) when my friend Tom Shaughnessy convinced me to go back to the stock points system. His advice was it was easier to problem solve on the road and you can always unplug and go to coil/points in an emergency. I only ever had one issue with the points ignition and it was a fluke that was quickly remedied.

If I went to a Jenvey style throttle body FI I would definitively go to a programable Motec system like Kevin O'Rourke's at Mototechnique. Now with my Stratos induction coupled with the Winterburn CD box and points I feel it's a simple to install, great performing period-correct alternative combination. Fred Winterburn will build his CD ignition into an empty Dinoplex if you supply it. BTW, if anyone is interested in my never used Adrian system, let me know. I'm sure it's amazing. I'm just happy with what I have.

Best,
Freeman
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  #3  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:25 AM
Karting
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Location: Kingston upon Thames
Full Name: Chris O'Connor
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Hi Freeman,
Do you know if, with the O'Rouke Jenvey/Motec system, is it Motec who set up the curves/parameters for a Dino with Jenvey injection bodies or does it require trial and error for one's specific car?
Thanks. Chris
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  #4  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:27 AM
Karting
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Tony, I was recently speaking to Barkways who said they put in new Petronix units that can be hidden in the distributor. I'm not sure if these are programmable or is of any help to you? Chris
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  #5  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:44 AM
Formula 3
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Location: Laguna Beach, Ca
Full Name: Freeman Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VicJano View Post
Hi Freeman,
Do you know if, with the O'Rouke Jenvey/Motec system, is it Motec who set up the curves/parameters for a Dino with Jenvey injection bodies or does it require trial and error for one's specific car?
Thanks. Chris
Chris,

Kevin O'Rourke was very helpful and complete with information on Mototechnique doing this conversion. Hopefully he'll chime in. Great part it looks completely stock with a stock (but modified floor) air box. He offered to me everything "ready to bolt on" and that included the Motec already dialed in. I believe it also had crank fire ignition.

Freeman
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  #6  
Old 06-19-2017, 11:25 AM
Formula 3
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Location: Suffolk England
Full Name: Tony
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Thanks for the responses so far, Freeman - I am a complete fan of your daring conversion...it takes some nuts to do that :-)

Chris - I looked at these and was really worried about heat & electronics in the same housing.

I am leaning towards the mechanical weight system once again which is damn annoying as I spent months perfecting a carbon copy of the MM distributor with internal hall sensor, only moving part was the shaft and a rotor. It worked a treat until the BSM ignition board went AWOL :-(

I have a friend who is working on putting W98 on my old laptop and trying to see if we can interrogate the module before its ditched completely.

It would be interesting to see what the advance curves are for the standard set up, ie points and weights - has anybody mapped these with modern fuels in mind.

Thanks
tony
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  #7  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:56 PM
Karting
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Full Name: Ken Ivey
Posts: 66
Tony, I have a Luminition trigger in my distributor and was running a Luminition electronic ignition in the Dinoplex box. It worked quite well, but didn't play nice with my tachometer.

I saw Rob's thread where he's using the Luminition trigger and MSD AL6 Programmable ignition. I bought the MSD and it works wonderfully + my tachometer loves it. I'm still using the advance in the distributor for now and I'm working on fitting it to the Dinoplex box. Thanks Rob
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  #8  
Old 06-19-2017, 03:20 PM
Karting
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Holland
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Tony, if you have a hall sensor and a rigid shaft without mechanical advance in your distributor it sounds like a perfect setup for hooking up a programmable MSD6AL in your car.
Nuvolari over here just did such a conversion (with a luminition optical sensor instead of a hall sensor) but a hall sensor is as easy to hook up to the MSD if not easier.
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  #9  
Old 06-20-2017, 02:32 AM
Formula 3
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Location: Uk
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There is an outfit in Holland that do an electronic system for the dino, also a lot of other dino related items
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  #10  
Old 06-20-2017, 03:21 AM
Karting
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Mike32, Any idea what there are called?
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  #11  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:00 AM
Formula 3
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Join Date: May 2016
Location: Uk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VicJano View Post
Mike32, Any idea what there are called?
I passed the details on to someone, i will see if i can find out. Not being rich enough to buy one it was not much use to me
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  #12  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:04 AM
Formula 3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VicJano View Post
Mike32, Any idea what there are called?
Try Home: Startseite

I put a google search in and this came up. I think it is the right site as lots dino ignitions
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  #13  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:58 PM
Formula 3
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Full Name: Tony
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Thanks everybody, I have found a good racing dept in the UK who has a king Machine and can set up the advance curves.

Tony
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  #14  
Old 06-20-2017, 02:45 PM
Formula 3
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Join Date: May 2016
Location: Uk
Posts: 1,067
The aftermarket electronic kits seem to be an advance on the oem gear, are they worth looking at ?
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  #15  
Old 06-20-2017, 04:43 PM
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Folks,
I have had numerous enquiries over the past 2 1/2 years regarding retrofitting the AEC 103 with a version of my ignition system, which in turn is based on my late father's (Lloyd Winterburn) CD ignition. Despite the numerous enquiries, I have only had one taker to date and that was two years ago.
I have the parts to retrofit one more system, and it has already been offered to a Dino owner. I will no longer offer retrofits and will update my website in the next few weeks to reflect that decision.
Freeman, I appreciate your endorsement of the system, but I've gotten so busy with my other work and hobbies that I'm going to focus on the standard production model only. Fred




Quote:
Originally Posted by 4CamGT View Post
Tony,

No way am I in your league but I wanted to share my up to date experience with the Winterburn CD box Rebuilding a Dinoplex AEC103A

I installed it with the correct NOS Marelli points distributor when I still was using the DCNF's. Always instant starts hot or cold. Great performance throughout the rev range. I had researched replacing the troublesome optical trigger Crane Cams system with Adrian's system (which I still have packed away ready to install already built by Adrian in a Dinoplex box) when my friend Tom Shaughnessy convinced me to go back to the stock points system. His advice was it was easier to problem solve on the road and you can always unplug and go to coil/points in an emergency. I only ever had one issue with the points ignition and it was a fluke that was quickly remedied.

If I went to a Jenvey style throttle body FI I would definitively go to a programable Motec system like Kevin O'Rourke's at Mototechnique. Now with my Stratos induction coupled with the Winterburn CD box and points I feel it's a simple to install, great performing period-correct alternative combination. Fred Winterburn will build his CD ignition into an empty Dinoplex if you supply it. BTW, if anyone is interested in my never used Adrian system, let me know. I'm sure it's amazing. I'm just happy with what I have.

Best,
Freeman
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  #16  
Old 06-20-2017, 05:18 PM
Formula 3
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Laguna Beach, Ca
Full Name: Freeman Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Winterburn View Post
Folks,
I have had numerous enquiries over the past 2 1/2 years regarding retrofitting the AEC 103 with a version of my ignition system, which in turn is based on my late father's (Lloyd Winterburn) CD ignition. Despite the numerous enquiries, I have only had one taker to date and that was two years ago.
I have the parts to retrofit one more system, and it has already been offered to a Dino owner. I will no longer offer retrofits and will update my website in the next few weeks to reflect that decision.
Freeman, I appreciate your endorsement of the system, but I've gotten so busy with my other work and hobbies that I'm going to focus on the standard production model only. Fred
Fred,

Thanks for chiming in! Can I put dibs on your last assembly if the other guy backs out? Tell me what I need to do!!

Freeman
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2017, 05:54 PM
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Freeman,
One of the reasons I''m backing out of the offer is that I have to be responsible for the customer's private property and the issues of crossing borders with governments wanting to levy duties on anything that crosses with value associated with it. Our government has historically charged first and hoped that Canadians do not go after a refund due to the hassle. And it is a real hassle to get that sort of mis-payment back. Couriers are terrible and charge brokerage fees on everything. I have to charge the customer for this if the parts aren't sent such that border fees aren't levied. Free trade with the USA has always been a myth for small business. It's no different than any other country as far as imports go. And then I have to send the unit back to the customer with the appropriate language so that the receiving country doesn't rip off the customer with border fees for something they already own (but now works).
The way around all of this nonsense would be to offer a retrofit kit, but that creates problems of its own and I'm not willing to engage in that from a quality control perspective.
Theoretically the profit margin on retrofits is higher than producing my own units, but with very few retrofits (one to date), I would need to relearn the process every time. I can build the production units pretty much blindfolded now. Fred
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4CamGT View Post
Fred,

Thanks for chiming in! Can I put dibs on your last assembly if the other guy backs out? Tell me what I need to do!!

Freeman
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  #18  
Old 06-21-2017, 06:44 AM
Formula 3
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Suffolk England
Full Name: Tony
Posts: 1,835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Winterburn View Post
Freeman,
One of the reasons I''m backing out of the offer is that I have to be responsible for the customer's private property and the issues of crossing borders with governments wanting to levy duties on anything that crosses with value associated with it. Our government has historically charged first and hoped that Canadians do not go after a refund due to the hassle. And it is a real hassle to get that sort of mis-payment back. Couriers are terrible and charge brokerage fees on everything. I have to charge the customer for this if the parts aren't sent such that border fees aren't levied. Free trade with the USA has always been a myth for small business. It's no different than any other country as far as imports go. And then I have to send the unit back to the customer with the appropriate language so that the receiving country doesn't rip off the customer with border fees for something they already own (but now works).
The way around all of this nonsense would be to offer a retrofit kit, but that creates problems of its own and I'm not willing to engage in that from a quality control perspective.
Theoretically the profit margin on retrofits is higher than producing my own units, but with very few retrofits (one to date), I would need to relearn the process every time. I can build the production units pretty much blindfolded now. Fred
Sounds a complete nightmare, I fear we may be heading down the same path leaving the European Union, but that is just another layer of bureaucracy.

I am considering lots of options but I have mixed feelings ever since I installed the Black Stallion set up several years ago and never really liked the way the coils got excessively hot despite limiting the settings on the control board, 4 coils later and the current Bosch unit I have seems to have outlasted all the others. It was never really developed properly and black stallion backed out when they knew just how much more development work was needed. I spent many many hours trying to overcome the problems. Personally I am at the stage where I want something reliable and simple to fix, I don't have time with rolling roads anymore and fine tuning the car to enter a 24hr le mans endurance race if needed. I want it to start when I get in and go. The old mechanical weights and points could be the answer, it survived 30+ years with it so I may revert back to the old way!!

I suspected the BSM module was misbehaving some time ago and purchased another type of programmable ignition system sold as bolt on and forget.........I got no backup from the company and just loads of excuses about EMI. That now sits in the bin although I am pleased with the MM dizzy I redesigned with hall sensor trigger

I am sure your design is great and freeman is very vocal about how good it is but I don't want to be saddled with another disappointment, and I mean no offence by that.

Kind Regards

Tony
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  #19  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:03 AM
Formula 3
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Laguna Beach, Ca
Full Name: Freeman Thomas
Posts: 1,676
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyL View Post
Sounds a complete nightmare, I fear we may be heading down the same path leaving the European Union, but that is just another layer of bureaucracy.

I am considering lots of options but I have mixed feelings ever since I installed the Black Stallion set up several years ago and never really liked the way the coils got excessively hot despite limiting the settings on the control board, 4 coils later and the current Bosch unit I have seems to have outlasted all the others. It was never really developed properly and black stallion backed out when they knew just how much more development work was needed. I spent many many hours trying to overcome the problems. Personally I am at the stage where I want something reliable and simple to fix, I don't have time with rolling roads anymore and fine tuning the car to enter a 24hr le mans endurance race if needed. I want it to start when I get in and go. The old mechanical weights and points could be the answer, it survived 30+ years with it so I may revert back to the old way!!

I suspected the BSM module was misbehaving some time ago and purchased another type of programmable ignition system sold as bolt on and forget.........I got no backup from the company and just loads of excuses about EMI. That now sits in the bin although I am pleased with the MM dizzy I redesigned with hall sensor trigger

I am sure your design is great and freeman is very vocal about how good it is but I don't want to be saddled with another disappointment, and I mean no offence by that.

Kind Regards

Tony
Tony,

Fred's standard unit is a direct plug in replacement for the Dinoplex. No mods to the wiring loom. Basically the Dinoplex that should always have been. Only for a points system. Doesn't get much simpler than that. Going back to the standard points distributor makes it reliable and simple to set up and also to problem solve on the road. My coil doesn't get hot. Some reading on the unit and Fred's dad, Lloyd who was a pioneer in CD ignition: http://www.capacitordischargeignition.com

Freeman

Last edited by 4CamGT; 06-21-2017 at 07:11 AM.
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  #20  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:47 AM
Formula Junior
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Location: Silicon Valley
Full Name: Mark
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I can't believe I'm the only retrofit customer. Not to sound like too much of a fanboy, but Fred's ignition has really improved the car's behavior. I'm not a fan of retrofitting "modern" ignitions into our cars, mostly due to the concerns Tony enumerates above. Fred's ignition is what the Dino should have had in the first place. Hey Fred - maybe make kits that people can retrofit themselves so you don't need to hassle with logistics?
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