I need some help/suggestions on this - After a weekend of driving, we parked our 246GTS in one of our garages on Sunday night, with both windows up and the targa top off. My wife and I were in and out of the garage Sunday night and Monday night. The garage is locked and no one else has access. Tuesday morning, we took a recycle bin (stored on the driver's side) out of the garage. Tuesday early evening my wife opened the garage to move the recycle bin back inside and before moving the bin, she noticed pieces of broken glass on the ground surrounding the car. She looked up at the car and gasped -- the photos show what she found. Nothing fell onto the car or hit the window. The break pattern showed that the window blew up into the car from the center of the window. The window (before the rear section disintegrated further from its own unsupported weight after the initial break) looked sort of like this: |\/| The window blew up such that it threw glass onto the front of the car, onto the engine and trunk lid covers, and in a shadow pattern on the ground around the car. Unlike a side window on a 246GT (which sits in a full door and window frame), the leading edge of a side window on a 246GTS rides in a channel in the frame that surrounds the wing window, the top of the window (when the targa top is off) doesn't contact anything, and the trailing edge "floats" on a rubber seal that runs up the sides of the rear targa top roof support. I have found one of the few remaining NOS passenger side windows and will be installing it shortly, but I am very concerned, for obvious reasons, about the cause of the catastrophic failure. I have two general theories (they are not distinct -- the cause could be related to both): First, the door and/or the front wing frame, the window opening on the top of the door, and the window lift supports, have somehow become twisted or misaligned perhaps causing the trailing edge to press too hard against the rear rubber seal. Second, the glass was itself under tension. An architect told me that tempered glass, especially tempered glass that has a shaped curve, is formed with a built in tension within the glass and that the glass is in some sense ALWAYS trying to equalize the tension, and because of the nature of glass, the only way this tension is released is through catastophic failure. [I have witnessed this phenomena in improperly cast or improperly fired ceramics]. I know that to get this properly repaired will likely require close cooperation between the window installer and a body shop to ensure that the window is properly aligned within the door, etc. Has anyone else experienced anything remotely similar on a 246GTS or in any other car? If so, how did you solve it? Any other sources for NOS 246GTS windows? Dennis McCann said he doesn't have any more and that he stopped ordering non-NOS replacements because they did not have the correct curvatures and did not fit properly. Any input would be appreciated. Thank you - Mark Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Mark. That sucks. Careful with the clean up as tempered glass leaves lots of little sharp edges when it breaks. Maybe heat related? I'll make some calls for the part today if I get a chance. Chek your PM's. Dave
Dave - FYI, my mechanic, Carlo at Alfa of Tacoma has located and ordered a NOS window that is supposed to arrive today (Thursday). I suspect that he obtained it from Algar. However, as nutty as this might sound, I am thinking about buying another NOS 246GTS passenger window AND another NOS 246GTS driver's window if I can find them, JUST IN CASE! This was pretty scary -- can you imagine what would have happened if we had been driving around in the car when the window blew up? Thanks for your reply. Mark
Spontaneous breakage of tempered glass happens quite often actually. Damage can occur to the window weeks, months or even years prior to the explosive release. As an example of this phenomenon you may find some interest in the following site and the explanation by an expert provided by Ford. Although the reason for breakage in this case is thought to be an identifiable outside mechanical force, there might be some insight in the explanation that will help you understand your situation. The glass in your car appears to have a pattern of breakage it is hard to tell from the pictures but there appear to be lines of breakage (rays) emanating from just below the chrome trim on the door towards the upper front of the window frame. I would probably carefully check this area to ensure that everything is in order prior to replacing the window. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=mt&vol=96&invol=595 You might GOOGLE "Spontaneous breakage of tempered glass" for some more information ... Best wishes
Mark, Sorry to hear about what happened. I never knew this could happen. I almost always leave my windows down in the doors. But this is quite shocking to say the least to know that glass can explode in this way.
Sorry to hear this, but it is probably associated with global warming and since Seattle isn't used to sun or heat this could be the reason (tongue in cheek). Last year I replaced the vertical window channel rubber and had to remove the window to do this. It isn't that difficult but there is one tight squeeze when you remove the window from the frame and pull it past the forward chrome standard that holds the forward wing window. The forward vertical edge of the window does get some stress.
Thank you for your insightful reply. 1. The link to the Wise v. Ford case was very helpful for its description of possible causes. However, I am more inclined to agree with Justice Trieweiler's dissent -- it seems to me that Montana's strict liability statute should have been applied to case, and that Wise was entitled to a directed verdict, especially when you consider Ford's coverup of the problem. Anyone reading this thread should also go to the link and read the Wise v. Ford decision. 2. I will try to post a few more photos of the area that you describe as being the apparent source of the breakage. Mark Nerheim
I'd vote/guess for the "under tension" failure, but for a different reason. I don't know the 246 window mechanism specifically, but on my ex-308 the up-travel "stop" for the window mechanism was/is a rather crude thing, and if it failed (e.g., became loose) the next thing that physically stopped the window was the window itself (i.e., if you held the switch to go up until things stopped moving there was a lot of stress on the window glass). Had my drivers side window "explode" going down the freeway because of this (at least when installing the new window I noticed the up-stop thingy was loose so I assume that that was the cause). Now in every car I try to avoid doing the "hold the button 'til it stops" method and am much more careful about manually releasing the switch when the glass just contacts the seal (or just reaches it bottommost postion). Just a thought (unless you're already using the manual method)...
Steve - Thank you for your reply. Usually I stop pressing the button just before the window reaches the end of its travel, but we will check all possibilities again. Mark Nerheim
My friend Cal had a customer's Porsche 924/944 parked inside his locked workshop building. He came in the next morning to find the rear window shattered in a billion pieces. No one had been in there. Those windows are very expensive, and he had to eat the cost of it, IIRC. Never found an explanation for it.
I just spoke with Tom Shaughnessy about my exploding Dino window, and he suggested that in the interests of safety that I have a window tinting company apply a clear "tint" on the inside of my "new" NOS window to prevent or contain a future break episode if this were to happen again. Anyone here ever applied any type of tint to a Dino window, for shade or safety reasons? Mark Nerheim
I have a 246GT, and I recently replaced the window channel on both sides, as the original stuff was coming apart in threads. The new channel used by my mechanic is not the original channel which was quite rigid, but a rubber product. When I closed the passenger window, I noticed that the window didn't seem to be all the way inside the channel, when fully closed. My mechanic and I concluded that the window shape and window motor mechanism conspired to push the window sort of outside the lines of the car. But the old channel was so rigid that it essentially warped the old window into place. The new rubber channel wasn't so strong, so as the front leading edge of the window, the window edge would pop out a bit. So, maybe on some number of random Dino's the window isn't shaped just right, or the motor loading the window open/closed isn't aligned right, and so with the original stiff window channel, the glass window could be under alot of stress, and some number of those stressed windows, might eventually 'explode', so to speak. If you're interested, I can take pics of what my passenger window is doing to my window channel, for a better idea of what I am describing. p.s. stunning paint job on the Dino... the shine really comes thru in the pictures.
Wow that is very interesting. I didn't know glass could just "explode" like that. Did the glass scratch the car at all? That would be a shame on such a beautiful car that you have.
sorry for the damage to your stunning Dino. i hope the issue is resolved. i would be looking for stray bullet holes in the walls or something if it had happened to me . strange how both of them broke the same way, at the same time. seems it would be one door glass or the other, based on the frames ability to channel stresses through it. hope its fixed for good this time !
YES! Please post some photos of your Dino's windows. And thank you for the comments on the paint. Mark Nerheim
I'd read about this style of safety coating in some Euro countries (France I think) several years back on front windshields. Not only was there double layered glass with adheseive laminate between the glass but also on the interior so that if glass broke it would provide a barrier to protect occupants. Sounds good, but some cleaning products might attack it or I'd wonder if it yellows over time.
the first pic should be the driver side... it does fit in perfectly in the channel, no problem. The other two pics of the passenger side window should show the top part of the channel pushing out, as the top part of the window wants to track outside the channel. When I power the passenger side window down, the channel moves back into proper alignment with the lower channel... we're pretty sure it's a window shape problem, not a channel install issue. I suppose after seeing your post pics I am going to leave my windows down from now on! Here goes with the attachments. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Here is a copy of an email that I received from Bill Badursky, FCA Tech guru: Mark, I've never seen this in my 30 years of various Ferrari ownership. The thread on fchat is pretty thorough. I know from Daytona experience that the glass sometimes doesn't follow the curve of the door tracks very well. Operating windows like that with the trim panel removed shows some pretty serious flex in the door frame once the glass reaches the end of its travel, suggesting a lot of stress if the window was rolled all the way up or down "tight". Perhaps this played a role. I'd check the action and the window stops for this. Also check the condition of the soft material in the channels and at the glass to the attachment points, as metal to glass contact could cause breakage. The tint film application probably would provide some margin of safety, but I've never heard of anyone who felt this was necessary. Bill
The same sort of thing once happened to me - with a Ford Fiesta in Ireland about twenty years ago, so the circumstances are a bit distant from your 246 window. On driving to a party a stone rattled off the windscreen from the car in front. I thought nothing of it, indeed I quite forgot the incident. About 2:00 am, when I left the party, I noticed that the cold had completely frosted over my windscreen. It was only as I was closing the drivers door and putting the key in the ignition that I realized none of the other car windows were frosted and it wasnt really that cold. I tried to stop the door slamming, but I was too late by a fraction of a second. I wasnt looking at frost, I was looking at a completely shattered windscreen. The door banged shut, the air pressure blew a hole in the broken glass, and then with a crash the rest of the windscreen shrapnel fell into the car - and quite a lot into my lap. I was so pissed off with myself, sitting there in the dark, decorated with glass and with miles to go before I got anywhere useful. What had happened was this: The glass had suffered mechanical damage. When the temperature had changed over night the contraction of the glass caused the tiny stress fractures to grow until with a ping the whole thing broke. As others have suggested above I guess thats what happened to your window, though I dont know what the mechanical damage could be - a rap with a ring or a bracelet, some lookey loo accidentally banging it with his watch when he put his had up to shield the glare as he looked into the car - it could be anything, but Id wager that whatever happened overnight in your garage was the result, not the cause of the accident.
Gary - It didn't seem that torrid to me! Anyway, our problem occurred more than a week after we visited. Your GT might not have the same type of problem since your windows are completely framed. But that would be an interesting experiment -- you could leave YOUR Dino sitting out in the hot Eastern Washington sun all day, and then spray some cold water on the windows and see what happens!;} Mark
We found a NOS passenger side window for my 246GTS from Rutlands. After it arrived, we found a defect -- there are supposed to be two holes about 18" apart along the bottom of the window where the frame/lifter mechanism attaches. The front hole was correct, but the rear one was misformed -- it looks like bubble in the glass. Because the glass is tempered, we are afraid to drill it out. SO, I need another window. Please PM me with any leads you might have. Thank you - Mark
I have read (no joke here) that if you cut/drill glass under water it won't shatter. The energy of the vibrations is absorbed by the water, it doesn't go into the glass and cause stress fractures and breakages. Years ago when I had an MG TD I used a scissors to cut a small piece of red glass for an ignition light. I did it under water and the blades just ground away bits of glass with nothing breaking. Mind you, a new window would be better, but perhaps everything else is gone and your dud one is the only one left.
