308 Instrument panel lighting upgrade tests | FerrariChat

308 Instrument panel lighting upgrade tests

Discussion in '308/328' started by chairpilot, Sep 16, 2009.

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  1. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

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    #1 chairpilot, Sep 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    While my dash is apart and I’m getting the vinyl repaired at a local shop, I decided to investigate the #3893 and #2723 lamp upgrade recommendations in past posts. Increased heat & current were my main concerns, as the potentially higher wattages would generate. I purchased the lamps at a local Kragan Auto. They did not have the #2723 but did have a #24 which appeared to have the exact same size base and prongs but a slightly larger glass bulb diameter as you will notice from the attched pictures.

    The setup - 7:00 PM Wed. - today
    Tack lamps (bayonet) - original IEUCI 2C 12v 3w – upgrade Sylvania # 3893 13.5v 4w
    Speedo lamps (mini) - original UCI 1.2w – upgrade Sylvania #24 14v 3.4w
    All “bench” connections made to my spare 24F battery.
    Ambiant garage temp was 75-76 F.

    The right and left turn indicator lamps appear the exact same as the speedo lamps. Right now these (UCI) lamps are 98% non-visible in the daytime. Assuming these tests are favorable, I may use the upgrade lamps in those positions as well to improve their brightness.

    Initially I did not notice any major difference in illumination intensity between the original mini and the #24 but did between the larger bayonet lamps. My test consisted of putting one of each lamp in the compatable OEM socket and taking pinpoint temp readings at the start and about 30 min later, all out of the gauge housings. My Fluke 62 Mini infrared temp meter takes both intantainious and saves max readings while holding down the trigger. So I was able to scan up and down the lamp, socket and feed wire to see the lowest and hottest spot temp locations as well as an overall maximum – at each reading.

    UCI 1.2w – 77F 30 sec after startup, 91F max after 30 min; current draw - 82 mA
    #24 – 89F 30 sec after startup, 119F max after 30 min (130F at about 20 min - ?); draw - 209mA

    IEUCI 2C 12v3w - 88F 30 sec after startup, 101F max after 30 min; current draw - 222 mA
    #3893 - 135F 30 sec after startup, 170F max after 30 min; current draw - 291 mA

    Results:
    #24 generated a 30.7% temp increase and a 154.87% current increase
    #3893 generated a 68.3% temp increase and a 31.08% current increase

    This is not a very scientific effort. Just a seat of the pants set of readings. My concern now is if the heat increase will negatively affect the plastic housings. I’d like to know if any of you out there have done similar tests or have made these lamp changes and experienced any problems from higher temps or current draws.


    1.5 hour update on the #3893 test (8:21 PM)

    IEUCI 2C 12v3w - still at 101F
    #3893 - up at 190F now



    Talk to me!
    Bob
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  2. dr joseph cardarelli jr

    dr joseph cardarelli jr Rookie

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    #2 dr joseph cardarelli jr, Sep 16, 2009
    Hey Bob ~

    Sounds like we are both looking for the same thing....any luck yet.

    Thanks ~ Joe
     
  3. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

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    #3 chairpilot, Sep 16, 2009
    Luck? If you mean did I decide to do the lamp upgrade, no not yet. I'll probably wait for more responses. Besides, it will be late next week before my dash is repaired and back from the shop.

    What are you doing with your panel lights?

    BTW - how about posting some info on your profile, like what kind of car you have?!?! Maybe a picture or something too?
     
  4. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

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    #4 chairpilot, Sep 17, 2009
    From the lack of comments, should I assume those of you who did the 3893 & 2723 lamp upgrade have NOT had any problems with heat or current?
     
  5. spiderseeker

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    #5 spiderseeker, Sep 17, 2009
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  6. airdelroy

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    #6 airdelroy, Sep 17, 2009
    I could have sworn I saw an instrument LED conversion thread within the last several months, but I cannot seem to find it. I doesnt seem to be in my notes either so maybe I dreamed it! :D

    Aaron
     
  7. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

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    #7 chairpilot, Sep 17, 2009
    Thanks Steve. I'll proceed then! Though I had no visible negative issues with my stock blocks (replaced in 2003 by the PO), I recently did upgrade my fuse blocks to the blade type ones from Sam. So I should be OK too I guess.

    Question: Do your turn signal indicator lights show up bright in the daytime? Did you change those out too? They appear they would take the same 2723 bulbs.

    Bob
     
  8. GrigioGuy

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    #8 GrigioGuy, Sep 17, 2009
  9. Dino246gt

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    #9 Dino246gt, Sep 17, 2009
    I did the lamp upgrade, after I installed Birdmans fuse blocks, bypassed the dimmer too, still way too dim for me, there MUST be a better solution.
     
  10. airdelroy

    airdelroy Formula Junior

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    #10 airdelroy, Sep 17, 2009
    AH!!! There it is. I did save the pdf, but did not look for that.

    thanks!
    Aaron
     
  11. spiderseeker

    spiderseeker Formula 3

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    #11 spiderseeker, Sep 17, 2009
    *I didn't change the turn signal bulbs, they could stand to be brighter but I can see them ok.(without sunglasses on) so if I were you and already have the gauges out, I'd try swapping them out too. Let us know if it helps.
    Steve
     
  12. dave80gtsi

    dave80gtsi Formula 3
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    #12 dave80gtsi, Sep 17, 2009
    Bob – Many thanks for posting this info - this is exactly the sort of thing which makes this forum such a valuable resource for all of us.

    I very much share your concern about excessive heat build-up in the lamp sockets as an unintentional side effect of this lamp upgrade. Because of this same concern, I’ve held off on doing this upgrade myself.

    Seems that you are now poised to be able to address this issue once and for all for us – simply place an “upgrade” lamp into the appropriate socket, and let it go for an hour or so. If there’s a heat problem, it ought to be obvious to you by the end of an hour. Of course, keep a careful eye on it during this time period and extract it at the first sign of any problems so as not to ruin your speedo / tach.

    I would not at all be concerned about the use of the upgrade lamps in the turn signal sockets, as their short-term use (one does not have their turn signals “on” for much more than a minute or so, while waiting for a long traffic light to change), combined with the intended on-off nature of the lamp’s usage, would seem to rule out any potential for a heat build-up problem. And, for sure, being able to actually see these indicators operating in the daylight is a worthwhile goal!

    Having said all of this, I’m a huge fan of LED’s, and their “cool” operation and very low current draw makes all of your concerns moot.

    As long as you are this deep into it, why not pick up some LED replacements as has been discussed in other threads and let us know how you like them vs. the OEM and upgraded lamps?

    Cheers - DM
     
  13. Steve Magnusson

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    #13 Steve Magnusson, Sep 17, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2009
    Great measurements and documentation, but for the temp increase calculation you should use the temperature rises above ambient rather than absolute temperature values themselves -- i.e., you used:

    % temp increase = ((T2)/(T1) -1) x 100

    whereas, a better way to calculate it is:

    % temp increase = ((T2-ambient)/(T1-ambient) - 1) x 100

    Note that, if you just convert the temperature values to Centigrade, you would get a different answer; whereas, the equation using the temperature rises above ambient gives the same result for deg F or deg C units.

    Does seem a little strange that you are getting such a huge % temp increase for not much of a current increase for the 3893 (like a lot more of the energy coming out the the filament is going into the base compared to the IEUCI 2C). The 24 data looks more "normalish" to me where the % temp increase (calculated using the rise over ambient) and the % current increase are roughly the same.
     
  14. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 BigTex, Sep 17, 2009
    There a huge manufacturing tolerance in lamps, possible he got one with some problem.....
     
  15. magnum

    magnum Formula Junior

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    #15 magnum, Sep 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The matter now is to swap to LED. I'm still searching the appropiate BA9 LED type to illuminate properly the Tacho and the small gauges. The speedometer is very nice with LED, bright and crisp. I've changed also the instrument turn signal indicator lights and the swap was a great improvement.
    Try to do the same procedure with a bulb and a LED. You will be surprised!
    Let us know Bob.

    I'm waiting for a new BA9 LED set of bulbs, to try them on the tacho and small gauges. I will let you know.

    First image: speedometer LED Vs Bulb (half right)
    Second image: tacho LED Vs. Bulb (half right)
    Last image: speedometer with LED
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  16. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #16 BigTex, Sep 17, 2009
    These pics are awesome! Nice work!!!
     
  17. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

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    #17 chairpilot, Sep 17, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2009

    Antonio,
    I totally missed your GREAT post/pictures on the LED's before attempting all this (!^%$%$#%#!)! I really like the idea of low heat with the LED's. So, I think I will pursue your approach and toss the incandescents! The LED's do not seem to be any more costly either.
    Where are you getting your LED's?
    I'd really like the "blue" speedo, fuel, oil, water tach, clock look. Can you post a link and/or the model numbers for each gauge/indicator you feel is best and to get the blue effect?
    Does the panel light dimmer work with the LED's?

    Thanks.
     
  18. magnum

    magnum Formula Junior

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    #18 magnum, Sep 17, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2009
    Hi Bob.
    No problem pal! I know that on Fchat there's a lot of good stuff that's impossible to remember!!!

    About the blue tone you've to buy the High Power LEDs in COOL WHITE. Don't buy the ones in warm white. The reason is that the gauges have a blue interior transparent plastic ring to colorize the light of the bulbs. As the incandescent bulb emits a yellow light, yellow+blue=green. So with cool white LED the light in white pure, so the blue appears.

    For the LED, I've bought them on eBay and at Superbrightleds. Reasonable price.

    For the speedo (check polarity on installation; they light only in one position):

    http://cgi.ebay.com/2pcs-T5-High-Power-LED-Xenon-White-Dash-Wedge-Bulb_W0QQitemZ200381775587QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Car_Parts_Accessories?hash=item2ea7af3ee3&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

    For the BA9s (I've to check them yet) in the other gauges:

    http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=755&cart_id=6349817.9630#BA9s-xHP6

    Let me know your thoughts.

    About dimmer, I haven't tested it -forgot-!! My next test (my car is 10 miles away from my home, so...)

    Regards
     
  19. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

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    #19 chairpilot, Sep 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I took depth readings of all the lamp sockets for the locations listed below to determine any clearance issues. It is easier to follow if you download my WORD file as the post does not clearly line up my data.

    OEM’s are of course no problem. I have no LED’s in hand yet so they are to be determined. But maybe MAGNUM can fill in the blanks there. The 3893 appears 1mm too long for the clock. But of course you can just back off some on sliding in the socket-lamp assembly.


    Bayonets -
    Location # of Lamps Clear dpth OEM Lamp+sckt w/3893 w/B9 HP6 LED

    Tach 2 35mm 29mm 32mm TBD
    Fuel 1 32mm 27.5mm 30.5mm TBD
    Oil Press 1 32mm 27.5mm 30.5mm TBD
    Water Temp 1 32mm 27.5mm 30.5mm TBD
    Oil Temp 1 32mm 27.5mm 30.5mm TBD
    Clock 1 29.5mm 27.5mm 30.5mm TBD


    Mini's -
    Location # of Lamps Clr Dpth OEM Lp + skt w/2723 w/24 w/LED

    Speedo 2 21.5mm 18mm 18mm 21.5mm TBD
    Turn Lf 1 29mm 18mm 18mm 21.5mm TBD
    Turn Rt 1 29mm 18mm 18mm 21.5mm TBD
    Hi Beam 1 29mm 18mm 18mm 21.5mm TBD
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  20. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

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    #20 chairpilot, Sep 18, 2009
    Antonio,
    I found this site which seems to have BA9's that are .9" long - same as the OEM lamps. Let me know if any of these shown are good.

    http://www.ledlight.com/ba9s-short-round-led-light.aspx

    My T5's (from Warden on eBay) are on their way!!

    Bob
     
  21. magnum

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    #21 magnum, Sep 18, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
    Hi again.
    They seem to be good, but are 1.15 inch long, not 0.9. I've a 1,26 inch long LED bulb and is too long. The old OEM bulb is 0.9 inch long. About the number of Flux LED chip, it seems OK (5 x 3= 15 LED chips) with good spread (around and front).
    Let me know about the Warden's T5. They worked great on mine.
     
  22. klatu

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    #22 klatu, Sep 18, 2009
    There are LED upgrades available of ebay.

    Rob
     
  23. chairpilot

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    #23 chairpilot, Sep 18, 2009

    Antonio,

    I feel this 5 LED #83456 at 1.15" (about 29.5mm) should work on all the BA9 locations, except the clock which may bottom out as it too is 29.5mm in clear depth. However, we would not have to push that one in all the way to stay in place either.

    http://www.ledlight.com/ba9s-5-ultra-bright-smt-led-light.aspx

    OR

    This #32323 (1 LED) & #32455 (3 LED) are at .9" (23mm) x .43" (holes are .47") and would clear everything.
    http://www.ledlight.com/ba9s-short-round-led-light.asp

    http://www.ledlight.com/ba9s-3-led-light.aspx

    Is there enough illumination from either of these three (5,3 or 1 LED)?
     
  24. magnum

    magnum Formula Junior

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    #24 magnum, Sep 18, 2009
    Hi again.
    The only one that works is the 83456, because we need the maximun power with super white colour. The other two are standard LED; we need Super Flux LED, exactly the same ones that are in your mobile phone and that act as a flash for the still camera.
    And yes, these are the most expensive ones, with US $9, but there's no other way. And we must keep in mind the length, of course.
     
  25. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

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    #25 chairpilot, Sep 19, 2009
    OK then. I'm going for it! I'll report back when they are all in (7 total).
     
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