328 Brakes HELP! | FerrariChat

328 Brakes HELP!

Discussion in '308/328' started by danman, Jul 9, 2010.

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  1. danman

    danman Karting

    Mar 31, 2008
    63
    Central NJ
    #1 danman, Jul 9, 2010
    Hi. Let me start by saying that I've searched and read pretty much every "brakes" article on 328 and Mondial and can't seem to solve my problem. I have a 1989 328 with ABS.

    Car starts fine. I hear the brake pump run, charge the accumulator, dash lights go on then off and all is good. After 10-15 minutes of driving my ABS and Brake Failure lights illuminate. Then, I get the dreaded "feels like no brakes feeling", car takes a crazy distance to stop, and feels very dangerous. It feels like I lost pressure to the system. If I shutdown the car and restart there is still no brakes, but after I let the car sit overnight it starts fine and I get 10-15 min of brakes again. I changed the relays and diode boxes under the bonnet....still same issue. My relays (especially the 30 amp ones) get VERY HOT while the car is running. Is that normal?

    Have not bled the brakes yet, but that may be on deck for tomorrow.....though I'd rather not go through that effort if not necessary.

    Any suggestions? (this is the ABS system so no small$ check valve to fix here.)

    Thanks,
    D
     
  2. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,662
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    #2 yelcab, Jul 9, 2010
    Before you declare a disaster, do bleed the brakes first and see where you are.
     
  3. danman

    danman Karting

    Mar 31, 2008
    63
    Central NJ
    #3 danman, Jul 10, 2010
    I guess this will be my sat project...
     
  4. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2005
    3,257
    UK
    #4 Iain, Jul 10, 2010
    To bleed the brakes on an ABS 328, for the rears you switch the ignition on & then get someone to hold the pedal down about 1/2 way & get the ABS to pump the fluid through. The front you bleed as normal (either with a power bleeder or via the pedal).
     
  5. danman

    danman Karting

    Mar 31, 2008
    63
    Central NJ
    #5 danman, Jul 10, 2010
    Can I bleed the rears with a power bleeder? I'm by myself here.
    First time bleeding on a Ferrari, but have done brakes many times on US cars.
     
  6. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
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    Mike 996
    #6 mike996, Jul 10, 2010
    Sounds like a brake booster failure to me....
     
  7. danman

    danman Karting

    Mar 31, 2008
    63
    Central NJ
    #7 danman, Jul 10, 2010
    How would I know if my accumulator failed? There is no "booster" in the ABS 328s.
    And if it did fail, do I need to drain the brake fluid to replace it?
     
  8. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    6,691
    Full Name:
    Mike 996
    #8 mike996, Jul 10, 2010
    "There is no "booster" in the ABS 328s."

    Bummer, the symptoms fit! ;)

    Is the booster referred to on page 83 of the '89 owners manual not a "booster" as is commonly known? I have to admit I have never worked on my 328's brakes; page 83 of the owners manual states it has a booster and that the accumulator and pump supplies the pressurized brake fluid required by the ABS and the booster. I ASSUMED that the booster referred to functions like the booster on other cars but I guess it does not.
     
  9. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2005
    3,257
    UK
    #9 Iain, Jul 10, 2010
    Yes, I've done it that way too. Just as a word of warning with the power bleeder, I had a VW fluid resevoir "let go" under about 12-15psi last year. Has made me very nervous about pressurising these things now & I tend to use no more than 10psi. Hate to think what a replacement resevoir for the Ferrari would cost (or what you'd have to do to change it & clean up the mess).

    Am on the lookout for a bleeder that pulls fluid through from the caliper end instead if anyone knows of one that doesn't require a compressor to work (most of them seem to for some reason.)
     
  10. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    6,691
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    Mike 996
    #10 mike996, Jul 10, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2010
    A mitey vac will do exactly that. But pressure bleeders are much faster/more effective. One of the handiest pressure bleeders I have used actually just connects to the tire valve on one of the tires, using the tire pressure for that purpose. No compressor needed. The tiny volume of air actually needed to bleed the brakes hardly affects the pressure in the tire. Though obviously if the reservoir can't handle that pressure, a small regulator would be needed.
     
  11. danman

    danman Karting

    Mar 31, 2008
    63
    Central NJ
    #11 danman, Jul 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well, you're making me doubt it, but I'm pretty sure no "booster".

    Here is an update to my situation:

    Just let the car sit for 3 hours. Turned the key to the 'on' position, heard the brake pump charge up, ABS and Brake Failure dash lights went on and then off like normal, rolled back and forth on my driveway twice, brakes felt good and normal (no dash lights). Then, ABS and Brake Failure lights go on and I get weak brakes. I then turned the car off and pumped the brakes many times to fully depressurize the system. Then turn the key to on. Now, no pump sound, dash lights are on, and brakes feel weak.

    This is so bizarre. I know that if the car sits for a few hours, the brakes will work again.

    I'm about to bleed the brakes, but before I do, does the fluid look ok in this pic? I know the reservoir tapers, but should it look so dark at the bottom?

    Thanks again for everyone's suggestions.

    DAN
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. doug328

    doug328 Formula 3

    Mar 11, 2004
    1,599
    The Space Coast, FL
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    Doug B
    #12 doug328, Jul 10, 2010
    Can't give you a definite answer to your problem as my car is an non ABS 1988. I do change the brake fluid each year as part of my annual fluids change. I use a vacuum bleeder that connects to the bleed nipple at the wheel caliper, a couple of pumps and the fluid gets pulled into the collection tank, no high pressure/ect. I'm sure there are some special things you have to do because of the ABS. As far a the loss of brakes, some have suggested the booster is bad, mabe you could also look at the vacuum line and check valve that feeds the booster from the intake plenum. If you had a vacuum leak or a bad check valve that could lead to a loss of the brakes. When the car is started after sitting for a while, there would be an initial build up of vacuum which would run the system, then with a leak/ect. you would start to loose the vacuum along with the brakes. Just a thought.
    Good luck, and keep us posted.
     
  13. danman

    danman Karting

    Mar 31, 2008
    63
    Central NJ
    #13 danman, Jul 10, 2010
    Well, here's another update:

    (on an 1989 ABS car I believe there is no vacuum line to the booster. There is a separate booster pump.)

    When I turn the key to 'on' I here the pump run, the system pressurizes, and the dash lights go off like normal. If, with the car off, I pump the brakes 20 times to discharge the system, shouldn't the pump start up again to pressurize the system? That is not happening. What happens is the ABS and Brake Failure lights come on, but no pump noise. (though it definitely worked on startup) Is there a sensor or switch that senses pressure in the system? I'm thinking that may be my issue.
     
  14. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
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    #14 mike996, Jul 10, 2010
    On "normal" cars, ABS failure does not effect the pedal or braking effectiveness at all. It just eliminates the ability to prevent the wheels from locking up. If ABS fails, you just have standard non-ABS brakes - at least on every other car I know of...
     
  15. danman

    danman Karting

    Mar 31, 2008
    63
    Central NJ
    #15 danman, Dec 30, 2010
    A new pressure switch did the trick! Just thought I'd post this back on here for any others with similar problems. If you can get your hands on the the special (or similar) deep socket to remove the switch, it's an easy job.

    Thanks to all for the great suggestions and guidance. This site is great.

    -Dan-


     
  16. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
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    Steve W.
    #16 FasterIsBetter, Dec 30, 2010
    Dan,

    Congrats on fixing it!! Did you take any pictures? And was the pressure switch a "stock" item or cross-reference to another part, or was it an F-car part only from the usual suspects? Just curious for future reference.

    Steve
     
  17. danman

    danman Karting

    Mar 31, 2008
    63
    Central NJ
    #17 danman, Dec 30, 2010
    Steve,

    Unfortunately, I didn't take pics, but there is really not much to show that's not on the websites. Plus, it's pretty cramped in there!

    During my months long saga, I discovered that this same Teves system was used in many cars by many many many manufacturers during that late 1980s to early 1990s time period. In fact, I got some of my best troubleshooting and parts ideas from a web sites devoted to Buick Reattas and BMWs! On your parts question, I used a legit Ferrari part from one of the known suspects online (and paid through the nose). However, I'm pretty sure that a GM, Ford, SAAB, Jaguar, etc. pressure switch would work too and cost a fraction of the price. Based on my research, this switch is a standard generic item and should fit the threads and screw into the unit on our Ferraris with no problem. I just didn't want to take the risk of using a non-Ferrari part in the brake system. What if the internal settings/thresholds in the switch are different between GM and Ferrari? I couldn't answer that question and didn't want to play around and use such an important safety system on my car as a guinea pig. (I think it's all the same in retrospect.) Any other part on my car, and I would have tried the GM or Ford part.....because based on the pics I've seen they look the identical to what came to me in the fancy yellow Ferrari parts box. Heck, I also discovered that the "special" Ferrari tool that is needed to remove the pressure switch is not so special at all.....the correct deep and odd sized socket comes in the set of faucet wrenches you can buy at Home Depot for about $10.

    I hope others with similar problems will read this thread and take away that the Teves ABS system is not so scary to work on at all. Cramped, yes, but once you understand how it works troubleshooting is very intuitive.

    Now, I need all this snow to melt so I can get on the road!!


     
  18. jfrazar

    jfrazar Karting
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    Jun 26, 2004
    223
    Savannah, GA
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    Joe Frazar
    #18 jfrazar, Oct 6, 2013
    I love ferrarichat!!!!!

    ABS issues -

    ABS and Brake Failure light every time I hit the brakes - Started this am on way home.

    Car stops fine but don't get the normal kick back in the brake pedal on first press.

    If I need the pres. switch I will try the GM part and let everyone know.

    Joe Frazar
     
  19. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
    London
    #19 andyww, Oct 7, 2013
    You could read out the fault code from the ABS unit. To do this you put a fuse into the empty fuseholder next to the unit and the code is displayed using a flashing sequence on the ABS light. This VW document gives the codes: http://www.vwclub.bg/uploaded/manual/ABS/ABS_MKII.pdf
     
  20. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
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    Lawrence A. Coppari
    #20 Lawrence Coppari, Oct 7, 2013
    I have pressurized the reservoir in my 1987 328 to about 8 psi for the past 25 years when bleeding the brake system. Ditto for Porsche and Mercedes.
     
  21. jfrazar

    jfrazar Karting
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    Jun 26, 2004
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    Joe Frazar
    #21 jfrazar, Oct 7, 2013
    Thanks for the input. One of my Techs that works for me was a tech in the GM Dealerships back in the 90's. He has worked on this system before and agrees that any parts needed ie Press switch or press acum ball can all be had from GM / AC Delco parts world. I showed him some of the Ferrari Lit and Pics. I called my local AC delco dealer and $139 for the press ball and $111 for Press Switch. Whole lot better than the Ferrari prices. Might be some time before I get to it- current project is a new top on my TR6.

    Thanks again for the input.

    Joe
     

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