Laminova Plenum | FerrariChat

Laminova Plenum

Discussion in '308/328' started by smg2, Mar 18, 2017.

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  1. smg2

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    #1 smg2, Mar 18, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    New project underway, thought the group might enjoy seeing something new and interesting. I've been working on designing a new manifold that would incorporate the inter-cooler into it. It'd be a water to air cooler and would solve the space issue of the mid/rear layout when trying to integrate either an air to air or air to water cooler.

    I've been working with a small foundry so that this will be a cast manifold. Keeps machining bits to a min and allows for 2bar of boost that some engines are in development for. It's also designed to be a bolt on affair to the stock runners, this is to serve a number of purposes the major one of which is to keep costs down.

    Here's some of the CFD analysis. The TB will be a monstrous oval that flows over 2k CFM.
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  2. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    The world needs more crazy people like you!

    Very cool.

    Best wishes in turning drawings into reality.
     
  3. Todd308TR

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  4. miketuason

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    Is the idea of more of a direct air flow rather than too much air turbulence?
     
  5. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Ahh, the round circles you see in the model are the center of the laminova core, they are inter-coolers. The CFD flow model was to check pressure and flow past the cores to insure that each runner was able to support the needed air flow at specific pressure.

    Laminova heat exchangers - Laminova
    - Heat exchanger technology - Laminova
     
  6. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Ok. IM as dumb as a post. :eek:

    Why do this? What is the gain? What is the down-side?
     
  7. johnk...

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    Ok, cool. Where do you get the cold water? Ice bucket in the trunk? :)
     
  8. smg2

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    It's an intercooler that is also the intake plenum, merge two units into one and save space. That's about it, oh and it has the small benefit of that charge air has less time to heat up again as it travels to the cylinder. shorter direct route.

    Downside, none really other then it can be a bit more expensive depending on mfg costs. An air to air intercooler setup is cheaper, an equivalent water to air setup is about the same as this but requires a lot more space as does the air to air one. The 308 has little to no room for an intercooler in the engine bay. Look at the 208 turbo, the intercooler is the intake plenum as well, but is an air to air one.
     
  9. smg2

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    :) Funny, Though a chill bucket in the trunk would be cool...

    No just a radiator up front, the long lines running back to front also increase the capacity of the system.
     
  10. MickyB

    MickyB Karting

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    We tried a similar setup on a 4cyl drag engine, the system flowed a lot had almost
    no back pressure but the cooling effect was only good for a limited power.
    The air run through the system too fast so the int air temp started to climb rapidly
    and the power curve flat out...
    Even we made a setup with 100+ small pipes instead of 4-5 bigger and added dry ice
    but had almost the same issue. Now i use methanol without cooler having high iint air
    temps but great power!!!
     
  11. smg2

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    There is an issue if the flow is to fast or the water flow is not correct. The thermal exchange requires the right flow or temps will not be regulated. Due to the high efficiency of the laminova cores they require a larger resivuor and efficient radiator. The water flow also had to be regulated for the system size. Once those issues are handled it's a very effecient system.
     
  12. Ferraridoc

    Ferraridoc F1 World Champ
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    I've looked at this in the past when I was almost at the point of supercharging. The Laminova is an incredibly efficient design. I'll be putting one of their oil/water heat exchangers on my race car - when I get around to it.

    Packaging is the problem. I take it that it will be designed to fit on the QV manifold? If you manage to pull it off, the (very small market in the) world will beat a path to your door.
     
  13. smg2

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    The plenum is designed to fit or bolt to the runners on the 2V, QV and 328. Yes packaging these buggers has been a massive PITA, they are not large but not small either, the space to work with in the bay is small and so round it goes. The biggest constrictor isn't the plenum volume so much as it's the small single TB, for NA on sub 3L displacements it's OK. For boosted engines, not so much.
     
  14. Ferraridoc

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    I would imagine that if you're going to the trouble of forced induction, keeping the original TB wouldn't be a priority. So this will be part of the SC kit that can be just bolted on? Maybe a larger TB can be included (I assume it's designed to keep the CIS).
     
  15. smg2

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    Yes it's for the forced induction engines we build. We don't retain the CIS but I suppose one could if they really wanted to. And the goal is for a bolt on plenum to the stock runners.
     
  16. smg2

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    #16 smg2, Apr 20, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  17. MANDALAY

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    Just food for thought. An Audi R8 which was supercharged using a Rotrex SC had this sort of setup. Actually went on better and the whole inlet / intercooler set up was milled from billet aluminium. Also a Honda NSX was done also.

    Big issue was heat soak. Sitting over the engine and heat transfer killed both designs
     
  18. smg2

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    Thermal heat transfer is always a concern, however I'm not overly concerned about it for a couple reasons. First and most importantly the 308 series engines do not operate at anywhere near the temps of modern engines. The other is the next decent location for an intercooler is over the exhaust, that is far worse for thermal convection. The manifold is also spaced from the runners via a rubber gasket. The 208 uses an air to air intercooler plenum from the factory so it's not a new idea nor a bad one.

    Modern engines operate at higher temps as in over 200*F and with a slew of pre cats, that cranks up under hood temps, add in the better insulation for noise and weather and it's not surprising that heat soak is a problem. The 308's are airy and breezy and down right cold in comparison.
     
  19. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Scott,

    Couple of things:

    1) About how much HP would this give a otherwise stock 2V?

    2) As a pure swag how much you think it MIGHT cost?

    3) Observation: if you made the top to look very similar to the QV/328 plenum, you'd have a real 'WINNER.'
     
  20. ferrariowner

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    #20 ferrariowner, Apr 20, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I would be interested in the thermal efficiency of your plenum and how much charge cooling it can provide. I have a Norwood turbo running around 25psi. See attached picture of how we did our inter-cooler. I like the one piece design you have if it would provide the same charge cooling coefficient or better. We found that we could not use rubber gaskets under the stock plenum at high boost. They would leak or blow out.
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  21. smg2

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    That's a good question and one I honestly don't know, WAG? probably 10 maybe 15 HP but not because the air is colder per say but because this throttle body is MASSIVE and flows over 2000CFM. The increase would purely be from an increase in airflow and a little bit from colder denser air.

    Boosted applications is where this is really needed, compressing air increases it temperature and depending on how it's done and at what pressure ratio the air can be a couple hundred degrees *F post turbo/supercharger, air that hot will destroy an engine and surely make it run crappy.

    Cost at the moment I'd say is in the $5k range.

    early on one of the design iterations was to do a raised rib top, I'll dig up the pics. It was passed in favor of a simple design that allows for the NFF shield on top. I thought it would be cool to have the shield be back lit by LED's that shift in hue with the engine RPM and the shield would be of opaque Lucite. In the end though it'll be an enamel shield.
     
  22. smg2

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    #22 smg2, Apr 20, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  23. johnhunt

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    #23 johnhunt, Apr 20, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    I would suspect some 1/4" insulating gaskets would help with the heat sink issues. Maybe just below the intake runners to help keep the heat off the injectors as well (can you make the flanges thinner?). Also I would pay close attention to the exhaust manifold surrounding area and insulation. Ferrari never imagined the exhaust glowing orange. A Naca duct to throw some cooling air back there probably wouldn't hurt. I wouldn't polish inside the IC. I would think you want the air a little turbulent on the edges. Also a cockpit adjustable boost is great on a rainy day :-/

    Just my 2cents Amazing project btw.
     
  24. smg2

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    On paper the cores are highly efficient provided water coolant flow is optimized and of sufficient volume to avoid heat soaking, that goes for any water to air exchange system though. My calcs show post inter-cooler discharge temps ~130*F @ 16psi vs ~350*F @ 24psi with no inter-cooler. In other things all things being equal for the same power output those are the temps and pressures for inter-cooled vs not. Not that anyone would ever run an engine with out one at those pressures and temps.

    I don't know the flow efficiency of the cooler you have to give a direct comparison, pressure drop, CFM etc.. Looks like you have a water to air intercooler setup now, but the location sucks.. I know I've done the same in the past and it's better then nothing but it's also why I went down this road. Restricted pressure ratios suck for making power.
     
  25. smg2

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    Oh, god no on polishing.. it'll be cast so that helps in the regard. The bores though will be machined to avoid thrashing the fins and keep the clearances to spec.

    The exhaust manifolds are shielded and ceramic coated on the projects we have in house.

    Gaskets will be phenolic, the runners heat soak to ~140*F on average from what I've measured, and that's without an inter-cooler. The cost and hassle of thermally separating them isn't worth it, now if they were getting into the 180~200 range then I'd consider it. What's crazy is that the std air route for the injected engines from the factory runs right on top of the exhaust manifold...
     

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