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  #61  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Albert-LP View Post
.....

In my opinion the piston of the relief valve (part 15 in the second picture I posted) in 4right car has too much play or the spring (part. 14) needs replacement.
...
If this is the case, it should also become evident with abnormal low oil pressure when warm/hot.
I once had a daily driver which had a pressure relief valve stuck open. It simply was rust and dirt on the piston.
Was easy to repair, but in the meantime it resulted in a worn camshaft and damaged crankshaft and connecting rod bearings. I want to say, that engine was toast.

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  #62  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin308GTB View Post
If this is the case, it should also become evident with abnormal low oil pressure when warm/hot.
I once had a daily driver which had a pressure relief valve stuck open. It simply was rust and dirt on the piston.
Was easy to repair, but in the meantime it resulted in a worn camshaft and damaged crankshaft and connecting rod bearings. I want to say, that engine was toast.

Best Regards
Martin
Agree, but I haven't any other idea about the reasons. Maybe the play is not so big so the drain and the loss of pressure is not so big that can be seen immediately, who knows. It must be some too big play somewhere, but I just saw those two possibilities and the oil pump shaft seat (that I don't know how is done in that engine so I could be wrong). I don't put my hands on the car so I'm just talking about what I'm seeing on the drawings: a good engineer can do that without touching by hands nor having seen the reality, but if I could inspect the engine disassembled, it would help a lot...

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  #63  
Old 04-20-2017, 07:01 AM
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I have personal experience with dry sump systems in both cars and bikes that can totally drain the tank - so that there is NO oil available to be pumped - in less than a couple of weeks.

I have personal experience with two identical engines, one of which took weeks for the tank to drain and one that took less than one week to do the same thing. It is all about the clearances in the oil pump. Both engines had satisfactory oil pressure while operating so there was nothing "wrong" spec-wise with the oil pump.

I do not now, and never have been enamored with dry sumps EXCEPT for their use in competition vehicles designed to take advantage of the fact that the engine can be mounted lower in the bode/frame. There is no other advantage TODAY. It's the same as Ducati's Desmodromic valve system. WHEN it was developed, it served a useful purpose due to the limitation of valve springs; TODAY it does not but it is used because it's a "Ducati thing." Dry Sumps have a "Race Car" cachet and so they are used in non race cars for marketing purposes...people buy "Racing Oil" for street cars for the same reason...
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  #64  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Albert-LP View Post
...I think that I don't know is this: why the USA 308 GTB hasn't the dry sump? which was the rule that prohibited the drysump? Is there anyone here that knows why?...
I'd wager a big reason was that they didn't have room for the oil tank -- on the US 308, the air injection system and exhaust system take up much more room in the engine compartment and need some space around them for cooling, too (so they couldn't just pack it all in super tight).
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  #65  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin308GTB View Post
Just to be accurate. This graph I made, shows the oil level decrease over 22 hrs. After months -i.e. over the winter months- I actually watch the oil level going down around 1,5 - 2 ltrs.

4right;
How long did your car sit till the tank was empty?

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The car had been in storage for over a year when I noticed that the tank was empty.
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  #66  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 4right View Post
The car had been in storage for over a year when I noticed that the tank was empty.
Then it shouldn't be anything to worry about. Just pour half a liter oil in the oil tank some minutes before restarting the car. And then check what's happen when you stop the car again

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  #67  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Magnusson View Post
I'd wager a big reason was that they didn't have room for the oil tank -- on the US 308, the air injection system and exhaust system take up much more room in the engine compartment and need some space around them for cooling, too (so they couldn't just pack it all in super tight).
Thank you very much: I didn't know that

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  #68  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mike996 View Post
I have personal experience with dry sump systems in both cars and bikes that can totally drain the tank - so that there is NO oil available to be pumped - in less than a couple of weeks.

I have personal experience with two identical engines, one of which took weeks for the tank to drain and one that took less than one week to do the same thing. It is all about the clearances in the oil pump. Both engines had satisfactory oil pressure while operating so there was nothing "wrong" spec-wise with the oil pump.

I do not now, and never have been enamored with dry sumps EXCEPT for their use in competition vehicles designed to take advantage of the fact that the engine can be mounted lower in the bode/frame. There is no other advantage TODAY. It's the same as Ducati's Desmodromic valve system. WHEN it was developed, it served a useful purpose due to the limitation of valve springs; TODAY it does not but it is used because it's a "Ducati thing." Dry Sumps have a "Race Car" cachet and so they are used in non race cars for marketing purposes...people buy "Racing Oil" for street cars for the same reason...
Yes and no, Mike. If the main pump is at the sump level, who cares if the oil tank drains.

But if the oil pump is higher than the sump, like in the 308, you cannot have your oil tank (and the connecting pipe...) empty, or the oil pump won't work for too many seconds at an engine restart.

Please read carefully my post No. 21, 40 and 44. And PSK post No. 41: they explain why the drysump solution is better in any case. Maybe not necessary, but it's better. Much more expensive too.

In racing, where you want continuative 100% performances from your engine, it comes usually as standard: means it's better. The westsump system works too, it's enough, ok: but it's not the best for a supersport car.

ciao
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  #69  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:09 AM
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Having spent a fair amount of time recently designing a scavenge system for the 4L 328 build and adapting it over to a drysump setup I can say that it would take alot more then a few simple changes to convert to drysump as found on the Euro's. The biggest issue is the front timing cover, it's completely different.

As to the oil drain back issue, I wonder if the filter being used is causing this. The oil route is such that the tank feeds to the pressure pump, the pump feeds to the cooler and that feeds back to the block via the filter. The tank sits higher then the pump as does the cooler, so in theory the oil should have nowhere to drain too. Oil being a liquid though can syphon feed and is normally stopped by the filters check valve, filters without that would drain back down. Just my thoughts..
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  #70  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mike996 View Post
I have personal experience with dry sump systems in both cars and bikes that can totally drain the tank - so that there is NO oil available to be pumped - in less than a couple of weeks.

I have personal experience with two identical engines, one of which took weeks for the tank to drain and one that took less than one week to do the same thing. It is all about the clearances in the oil pump. Both engines had satisfactory oil pressure while operating so there was nothing "wrong" spec-wise with the oil pump.

I do not now, and never have been enamored with dry sumps EXCEPT for their use in competition vehicles designed to take advantage of the fact that the engine can be mounted lower in the bode/frame. There is no other advantage TODAY. It's the same as Ducati's Desmodromic valve system. WHEN it was developed, it served a useful purpose due to the limitation of valve springs; TODAY it does not but it is used because it's a "Ducati thing." Dry Sumps have a "Race Car" cachet and so they are used in non race cars for marketing purposes...people buy "Racing Oil" for street cars for the same reason...


In the Ferrari's they don't go totally empty. They go off the stick and lower than the baffle so you really cant see it. Probably still has a quart or two in the bottom. We see it all the time at services. Drain the tank and a quart or 2 comes out and drain the sump and a couple of gallons come out.

We ran a Rodak in an LSR car. The only place for the tank was on top of the trans. We put a ball valve in line so we could turn it off after a run to prevent sumping all of the oil. The ball valve got a big red flag attached when it was closed though.

Old Maserati race cars needed to have their rear axles put on jack stands when shut down. They had no rear main seal and when they sumped all the oil ended up on the ground.

It is all SOP for anyone familiar with dry sumps and how they work. Not a mystery.


BTW. Ducati desmos have valve springs, quite stiff ones. The desmo stuff is mostly for their PR department or if the dummy on the throttle zings the motor.
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  #71  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by smg2 View Post
Having spent a fair amount of time recently designing a scavenge system for the 4L 328 build and adapting it over to a drysump setup I can say that it would take alot more then a few simple changes to convert to drysump as found on the Euro's. The biggest issue is the front timing cover, it's completely different.

As to the oil drain back issue, I wonder if the filter being used is causing this. The oil route is such that the tank feeds to the pressure pump, the pump feeds to the cooler and that feeds back to the block via the filter. The tank sits higher then the pump as does the cooler, so in theory the oil should have nowhere to drain too. Oil being a liquid though can syphon feed and is normally stopped by the filters check valve, filters without that would drain back down. Just my thoughts..
Pictured: Ferrari engine model F106A021, N.1690, installed on 308 GTB drysump VIN 34465. Picture Copyright: me, Alberto Mantovani.

How can the oil go down from the oil filter to the sump, if the oil filter height is almost as high as the intake camshafts and the oil tank, means the highest points over the main oil pump level?

I just wrote that the crankcase is the same, not that you can have a drysump just drilling the crankcase. You have also to change the rear cam cover and install the scavenging pumps, plus the oil tank.

The oil route is this: scavenging pump in the sump (spiltted in two) - oil radiator - oil tank - gravity- main oil pump - oil filter - engine - gravity - sump

To change the oil you have to drain the oil tank manually (remove the temperature sensor in the oil tank or open the draining screw in the oil tank in the later models)

ciao
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  #72  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Rifledriver View Post
In the Ferrari's they don't go totally empty. They go off the stick and lower than the baffle so you really cant see it. Probably still has a quart or two in the bottom. We see it all the time at services. Drain the tank and a quart or 2 comes out and drain the sump and a couple of gallons come out.
Correct: also Toni Auto mechanics told me the same. They always have to drain the oil tank manually: I was there this afternoon so I asked them, as I was curious to know.

ciao

Edit:
Thank you, Brian, for sharing this: you know things in person, as you work on many engines with your hands and you see what real things are
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  #73  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:18 AM
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Pictured: Ferrari engine model F106A021, N.1690, installed on 308 GTB drysump VIN 34465. Picture Copyright: me, Alberto Mantovani.

How can the oil go down from the oil filter to the sump, if the oil filter height is almost as high as the intake camshafts and the oil tank, means the highest points over the main oil pump level?

I just wrote that the crankcase is the same, not that you can have a drysump just drilling the crankcase. You have also to change the rear cam cover and install the scavenging pumps, plus the oil tank.

The oil route is this: scavenging pump in the sump (spiltted in two) - oil radiator - oil tank - gravity- main oil pump - oil filter - engine - gravity - sump

To change the oil you have to drain the oil tank manually (remove the temperature sensor in the oil tank or open the draining screw in the oil tank in the later models)

ciao
Siphon feed, at shut off the oil flow is still moving and without an air gap the oil could in theory continue to slowly siphon feed into the sump if the filters bypass valve is open or possibly damaged. Just a thought as the route itself does not lend to feeding back via gravity alone. The scavenge section would have also drawn down the air pressure in the sump, also aiding in the siphon effect.
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  #74  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:46 PM
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FYI this is the website that I ordered from originally:
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I was expecting a vast warehouse
Sorry to interrupt the original purpose of this thread with some trivia.
I take everything back!
My battery turned up today. Absolutely perfect, extremely well packed and 3 days after I clicked to buy it. 69.96 delivered. No one else had it for sale for less than 94.
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  #75  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Albert-LP View Post
Correct: also Toni Auto mechanics told me the same. They always have to drain the oil tank manually: I was there this afternoon so I asked them, as I was curious to know.

ciao

Edit:
Thank you, Brian, for sharing this: you know things in person, as you work on many engines with your hands and you see what real things are
I had a coworker who used to take the valve covers off of TR engines to adjust the valves before he drained the oil. It was always an overnight job. In the morning when we came in there would be about 2 gallons of oil on the floor because overnight it sumped and the oil level went high enough to run out of the oil drain back tubes from the heads to the sump. And the heads are pretty high on those.
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  #76  
Old 04-21-2017, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by smg2 View Post
Siphon feed, at shut off the oil flow is still moving and without an air gap the oil could in theory continue to slowly siphon feed into the sump if the filters bypass valve is open or possibly damaged. Just a thought as the route itself does not lend to feeding back via gravity alone. The scavenge section would have also drawn down the air pressure in the sump, also aiding in the siphon effect.
The oil level in the oil tank falls just until the level of the oil filter base, that is the highest point after the main oil pump, as I already wrote.

The oil tank cannot empty by itself, unless there are big problems somewhere: we are talking on the 308 engine and its oil system, as shown in the pictures and drawings. Ferrari put a draining point in the oil tank (my car has it, it was from the VIN 27127, there wasn't in the 1975 model, so you have to remove the oil temperature sensor in the oil tank for earlier models). The draining plug is the part No. 43 in the drawing here below.

In this picture you can see also the two holes you have to do in the crankcase to modify your wetsump crankcase into a drysump crankcase: you have to add the scavenging pumps and all their devices, the oil tank and a new rear camcover without the refilling cap

I repeat here agian: those are just the fundamental laws of hydraulics, so there is no opinion on those, just physics.

ciao
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  #77  
Old 04-21-2017, 01:48 AM
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  #78  
Old 04-21-2017, 02:02 AM
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Yes simple physics... As in the physics of a siphon or what is also called self priming. You seem to have missed the oil route from the pressure pump to the filter.
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  #79  
Old 04-21-2017, 03:56 AM
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Yes simple physics... As in the physics of a siphon or what is also called self priming. You seem to have missed the oil route from the pressure pump to the filter.
Please pay attention: in the drawing there isn't nor the oil pressure pump nor the oil filter, so I haven't missed any route. Please read post No. 71: thank you very much.

ciao
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  #80  
Old 04-21-2017, 06:30 AM
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We have now learned a lot about the 308 drysump system, but the question about where the draining oil finds its way into the sump is still unanswered.
After looking on the main pump's components in the spare parts book I think, the main shaft of the pump is the most probable possibility. The bearing is just a simple plain bearing bush. No problem - especially not for warm oil- to leak through that fit back into the sump.


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