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  #61  
Old 06-14-2007, 02:05 PM
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ND,

Is this degrade problem seen in the stock oem chip as well? Should we be doing some kind of maintenance like burning a new chip from the old data every year? And yes is there a test short of pulling your eprom out and doing a hex dump?
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  #62  
Old 06-14-2007, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
ND,

Is this degrade problem seen in the stock oem chip as well? Should we be doing some kind of maintenance like burning a new chip from the old data every year? And yes is there a test short of pulling your eprom out and doing a hex dump?

Yes and yes. You own your copy of the OEM code that is on each chip in each ecu, so make a copy.

These EPROMS *do* sometimes go bad (they are user erasable and programmable, after all, so being in an extreme automobile environment for 15+ years could easily cause 1 out of every 1000 chips to go bad).

In my opinion, you should remove one chip (they are twins so you just need to scan in one chip of the two), scan it in, and save that binary file. Replace the chip and carry on.

Testing. If a chip goes bad, you will either get absolutely no CEL illumination on the dash from that ecu (e.g. during the startup test), or else you will get the 1313 CEL code.

At that time you would want to burn a new chip from your scanned/saved image, install that chip into the "bad" ecu and go from there.
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  #63  
Old 06-14-2007, 02:32 PM
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Just as a followup, there are probably several 348 Brothers who have been told by a Dealership or independent shop to buy two entirely new ECUs when the only real problem was in one removable chip in one ECU.

Before buying new ECUs, you should *always* swap out the chip in each ECU to see if that fixes the ECU.

This is a multi-thousand Dollar test that won't take 45 minutes of your time.
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  #64  
Old 06-14-2007, 04:58 PM
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For the less geeky of us, can you please advise what it takes to do the scan and save. What equipment do I need? Where's the chip in question located in the ECU? How is it removed so that it is not damaged? How do we store the data?

The next thing I'm going to need is a chip upgrade optimized for my mods, but it sure would help me sleep at night knowing I had the OEM safely stored and recoverable. This also might be the most convenient way to return to smog compliant.
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  #65  
Old 06-14-2007, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by vvassallo View Post
For the less geeky of us, can you please advise what it takes to do the scan and save. What equipment do I need? Where's the chip in question located in the ECU? How is it removed so that it is not damaged? How do we store the data?

The next thing I'm going to need is a chip upgrade optimized for my mods, but it sure would help me sleep at night knowing I had the OEM safely stored and recoverable. This also might be the most convenient way to return to smog compliant.

Great way to return to smog compliant...but simply putting your stock chips back will do most of that for you.

What you want is a back up chip, or the image of, the chip that you want protected.

Most any modern EPROM scanner/burner will read our chips. I use the BATRONIX EPROM programmer (www.batronix.com) because it is cheap and easy to use (software comes with it).

Yank out your M2.7 chip (here's a pictorial tutorial to so do: http://www.club348.com/technical/Tec...your348ECU.htm) and insert that chip into your EPROM scanner.

Scan in the chip (2 software clicks). Now save that image as a dot bin file (".bin").

You're done.

If your chip ever fries, just burn a new one (2 mouse clicks) from your stored image.
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  #66  
Old 06-14-2007, 07:06 PM
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It is POSSIBLE that the chips used are not to automotive spec.

It is very hard and rather expensive to get automotive spec EPROMs anymore.

The other key is that the access speed is correct as well.

Automotive spec is specifically the temperature tolerance of the EPROM.

Jim
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  #67  
Old 06-14-2007, 07:41 PM
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The aftermarket firm in question used IC's with an F1 temp rating.
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  #68  
Old 10-25-2007, 04:06 PM
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M2.5

ND, time to resurrect this thread. I have started poking around with the M2.5 chips and it appears that the structure of the data on the chip is different to that of the M2.7.

Is there any info out there on the 2.5?

Thanks, Dave
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  #69  
Old 10-25-2007, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by lusso64 View Post
ND, time to resurrect this thread. I have started poking around with the M2.5 chips and it appears that the structure of the data on the chip is different to that of the M2.7.

Is there any info out there on the 2.5?

Thanks, Dave
Just what I've done. I can give you the pointer indexes for the air/fuel tables and ignition tables...the index map to the tables is at a different memory location in 2.5 than on 2.7 (and different again for 355's running M2.7).

If you are using the Motronic 911 Editor, then I have the M2.5 SPC file that will get you started and a good ways in to the chip (the Primary Offset *is* correct and the Rev Limit RPM memory address appears to be correct, for instance, but I haven't verified the fuel and ignition addresses therein).


See attached (but rename "348m25.txt" to "348m25.spc"):
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File Type: txt 348m25.txt (1.9 KB, 110 views)
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  #70  
Old 10-25-2007, 04:27 PM
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ND,

Are you planning any trips to cali in the next year? I'm thinking Plugzit and I would love to just buy all the required stuff and have you give us a programing lesson. It is easy to you but we are just old hillbillies that still have paper address books!
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  #71  
Old 10-25-2007, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
ND,

Are you planning any trips to cali in the next year? I'm thinking Plugzit and I would love to just buy all the required stuff and have you give us a programing lesson. It is easy to you but we are just old hillbillies that still have paper address books!
I'm overdue for a Cali trip. I'll definitely be out there soon.

You don't need much of a programming lesson, though. You'll need:

1. Most any modern EPROM scanner/burner to read our chips. I use the BATRONIX EPROM programmer (www.batronix.com) because it is cheap and easy to use (software comes with it).

2. Some chips from the same site above (actually, you can shop around and find them for a little less $$).

3. www.8052.com (if you want to modify the programming instead of just the fuel/air and ignition data)

4. the Motronic 911 editor http://www.atlllc.com/atlantis.php?p...ronic%20Editor

5. the M2.7 SPC file (attached). Just rename "F348m27.txt" to "F348m27.SPC" and then run the Motronic 911 Editor on your .bin file that you scanned in with your Batronix EPROM reader from item #1 above. NOTE: I haven't verified each fuel and ignition address in that SPC file yet (but it looks good so far).

Anyway, that Motronic 911 Editor will use the SPC file to read your Ferrari 348 chip's .bin file and display the fuel maps and ignition timing maps in 3D graphical form (you've seen me post those graphs here on Fchat).

That Editor lets you change one data number at a time and then regraphs what your new fuel or ignition map will look like.

So you might change a "4A" to a "4F" for more fuel at one particular RPM and load, for example. Not too tough. The editor shows it to you in graphical as well as data form...you just change the data point values by hand.

Anyway, with the above and a dyno graph of your existing Air/fuel ratio over the full WOT rpm band, you can add or reduce fuel where you need to in order to get your desired air/fuel ratio.

And you can bump up your ignition timing as much as you dare (good way to blow an engine, though).
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File Type: txt F348m27.txt (1.4 KB, 71 views)
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Last edited by No Doubt; 10-25-2007 at 04:58 PM.
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  #72  
Old 10-25-2007, 04:49 PM
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Thanks ND - a lot.

I'd be interested in any SoCal get together to cover this type of thing. Specifically, I have an interest in retrofitting factory-like EFI to earlier engines.

Dave
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  #73  
Old 10-25-2007, 04:53 PM
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Thanks ND - a lot.

I'd be interested in any SoCal get together to cover this type of thing. Specifically, I have an interest in retrofitting factory-like EFI to earlier engines.

Dave
Funny that you should mention that. I've been contemplating buying some 308 GT/4's for my drift team and making that very mod to them.
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  #74  
Old 10-25-2007, 05:01 PM
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Funny that you should mention that. I've been contemplating buying some 308 GT/4's for my drift team and making that very mod to them.
Would solve the carb-surge problem under high lateral G conditions.

The thing that really interests me is the potential for a cheap(ish) factory-looking EFI conversion for the CIS injected engines. There is free hp and mileage improvements waiting to escape, not to mention the ability to easily pass smog tests here in Ca.

Anyone with one of these cars wanna play?
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  #75  
Old 10-25-2007, 05:08 PM
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Yup. Solves the carb surge (important for drifting!). Enables easy emissions passing. Enables different spark dwell, ignition advance, and fuel/air curves. READ: lots more hp.
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  #76  
Old 10-25-2007, 09:54 PM
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[QUOTE=No Doubt;137174624]I'm overdue for a Cali trip. I'll definitely be out there soon.

You don't need much of a programming lesson, though. You'll need:

1. Most any modern EPROM scanner/burner to read our chips. I use the BATRONIX EPROM programmer (www.batronix.com) because it is cheap and easy to use (software comes with it).

QUOTE]

Thanks ND! I'm going to buy this stuff and play with it. Most likely I'll still not understand it. Bruce and I will scratch the one remaining hair on our heads and then we will wait until you land at LAX. We'll sofen you up with dinner and alcohol and then pick your brain! Let us know when you are coming to town. And sure lets get lusso in on this too.
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  #77  
Old 10-25-2007, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by lusso64 View Post
Would solve the carb-surge problem under high lateral G conditions.

The thing that really interests me is the potential for a cheap(ish) factory-looking EFI conversion for the CIS injected engines. There is free hp and mileage improvements waiting to escape, not to mention the ability to easily pass smog tests here in Ca.

Anyone with one of these cars wanna play?
This can work if you are doing a drift park since it is off road only. There is a salvage 348 for 25K on craig's list about the cost of a gt4. I do have this euro mondial QV that is in storage. It runs, is dirty and interior is kinda dry but hey if you want a cheap running mondial cab to drift for the park. If you are interested in that let me know it can go cheap!

If you do this conversion to cali cars check with smog police. They will not allow any aftermarket stuff even 4re of a different year even if is does pass the tailpipe test. You can do modern conversions to pre-74's cars. Have the laws changed? Or will the BAR referree pass a car with an aftermarket conversion? I know they will not if the ECU is programable. In the strictest sence of the word our ECU's are not user programable...except for this one case w/ 2.7 ecu's.

The actual ecu may be the same as say a volvo ecu and thus be plentiful and cheap. Ernie has a who knows what ecu that probably has a burned eprom to ferrari specs. His ecu is not a ferrari bosch #. There are others doing the ND research into the ecu's.
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  #78  
Old 10-25-2007, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by No Doubt View Post
Just as a followup, there are probably several 348 Brothers who have been told by a Dealership or independent shop to buy two entirely new ECUs when the only real problem was in one removable chip in one ECU.

Before buying new ECUs, you should *always* swap out the chip in each ECU to see if that fixes the ECU.

This is a multi-thousand Dollar test that won't take 45 minutes of your time.

And just for reference, there are several shops such as Bosch and http://www.fuelinjectioncorp.com/ that claim to repair these ECUs for a lot less than what it takes to buy one used, much less NOS.

But do the chip swap first before sending your ECUs out for repair or buying replacements, of course!
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  #79  
Old 10-25-2007, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post

Thanks ND! I'm going to buy this stuff and play with it. Most likely I'll still not understand it. Bruce and I will scratch the one remaining hair on our heads and then we will wait until you land at LAX. We'll sofen you up with dinner and alcohol and then pick your brain! Let us know when you are coming to town. And sure lets get lusso in on this too.

You'll understand it. You and Bruce and Ernie always impress me and figure out ways to con dinner out of me (just kidding!).

For starters, just download the Motronic 911 editor. It comes with actual Porsche .bin files and .SPC files so that you can pull up the fuel/air maps into a big, colorful graph for cars like the 911 C2.

On the same screen as the colorful graph will be a table of numbers. Each number is a data point that corresponds to a point on the graph. Change the number and the graph changes.

Save your changes and you are ready to burn a chip. Just takes a couple of mouse clicks and the BATRONIX software will read your newly saved .bin file and burn a chip for you.

Insert new chip and you've just tuned your car.

So download the Motronic editor and play around with the Porsche graphs.
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  #80  
Old 10-25-2007, 10:28 PM
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FBB - I am pretty sure that "no changes can be made." However most smog test places have zero idea on what a Ferrari engine should look like. If it all says Ferrari and actually runs clean, then you're three steps ahead of the game at least.

I am not into drifting - at least not intentionally - but am always interested in playing with these sorts of things.

Dave
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