348 gearbox noise | FerrariChat

348 gearbox noise

Discussion in '348/355' started by wda24729, Jun 19, 2015.

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  1. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Good evening. Just thought I'd post this up as Im scratching my head trying to fathom it out.

    The problem I have is that I only did about 50 miles in the car after purchase before embarking on a full rear end restoration so Im not sure if the noise was there before or not.

    Anyway, to me it seems that when its running in 4th and 5th gear, there's a chattering noise but only when in lower revs. I have it up on a lift at the moment so if I run through the gears, 1st, 2nd, 3rd no issues, 4th gets noisier and then 5th the worst. If I increase the revs it disappears and and when running at say 3000 rpm / 60-70mph the noise in question disappears again.

    I did an oil change and also took the inspection cover off and I can't feel any excessive movement on the 4th and 5th gear shaft, no more than would be expected to allow tolerance. The syncro ring and floating rings have movement but I guess thats normal?

    What Ive also noticed is that if I let the car tick over out of gear and let the clutch up very quickly, I get a (difficult to describe) mechanical churning noise...if that makes any sense (new complete clutch fitted and delivered as a complete unit by specialist)

    Before I now embark on a gearbox out job, does anyone have any pointers, or in fact want tell me this is normal for a 348?

    Thanks
     
  2. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
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    Dec 1, 2004
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    Bruce Bogart
    Can you feel it in the stick or the clutch pedal?
    Does it do it under load?
     
  3. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
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    Graham
    Nothing through the stick or pedal, disappears under load / acceleration
     
  4. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
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    Graham
    #4 wda24729, Jun 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  5. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Dec 22, 2011
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    Miroljub Stojanovic
    The synchro rings being "loose" when in neutral is normal. The described noise could be just the flywheel rattle. Did you replace the flywheel grease when you changed the clutch?
     
  6. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
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    Graham
    Yes, all re-packed. The pumpkin housing all came back as one unit. I have to say it does sound like its coming from somewhere around the point between the flywheel and gearbox but not sure why it would be worse in 4th and 5th
     
  7. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Dec 22, 2011
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    If your flywheel was re-packed with Kluber grease than it should not be the cause. Perhaps you should try different gearbox oil. My Getrag 265 box (BMW E30 M3) was making rattling noise when hot and idling in neutral. The rattle would disappear when I just press the clutch and engage any gear (without moving the car). I switched to Motul GEAR Competition (75W140) fully synthetic and the rattle completely disappeared (and this box sees heavy stress as this is my race car).
     
  8. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Dec 22, 2011
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    I just realised that you noticed the rattling while running the engine with the wheels lifted up. You should not test the transmission in this way - almost every transmission will make rattling noise in higher gears if run at low revs with the wheels up. Do a driving test.
     
  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    If it sounds loudest with a mechanics stethescope just aft of where clutch fluid lines enter the top of the case you might have loose clutchshaft ring nut that on initial hearing could be though of as a T/O bearing. That was the early failure that killed 348 boxes first seen in the challenge cars. Some of those rings where literally not staked by the factory. These cars are very old now and thus a rare failure because all the cars with this problem already had them fixed. It was not a design flaw but an assembly flaw.
     
  10. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
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    Graham
    #10 wda24729, Jun 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  11. Tommy J.

    Tommy J. Karting

    Apr 7, 2016
    67
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Tommy Songkran Johns
    Any update on the issue?
     
  12. Jh348

    Jh348 Karting

    Sep 5, 2015
    187
    Finland
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    Jesse Heinola
    These topics are interesting, as i think im having some sort of wear/failure in some part of tranny.

    Symptoms are, 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears produce slight whine when driving light load. 4th and 5th gears are way less noisier. Theres no noises when idling and clutch doesnt affect the sound. I was supposed to check it last winter but didnt had time for it and it didnt change when putting about 3k miles on it this summer. Car has 67k miles on it so dunno if its some normal wear but it does annoy me. I do have some experience about trannys from skyline gtr platform so im pretty comfortable about taking it apart. Guestion is, would you take it apart and inspect the hole unit? Atleast im going to open those side covers and inspection cover to have a minor look

    I know heres a few guys that have done many these boxes so do you guys have a feel what it could be? Theres no other flaw than that whine i described

    Cheers guys
     
  13. itsablurr

    itsablurr Formula 3

    Dec 9, 2005
    1,006
    Carlisle, MA
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    Matt
    Road test ended at undisclosed vacation destination.
     
  14. vinny84

    vinny84 Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2008
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    Vince
    STOP driving it and pull the gearbox! If you're not aware, these gearboxes have issues. Take it from me and a lot more on this forum.

    My 348 is undergoing the same thing right now. 2nd and 3rd gear are getting replaced, along with new bevel gear, synchros, bearings and a new clutch.

    I have a thread on here which I will be updating along with pics I took at my mechanics shop. Just haven't had the time to do so.

    If you don't think you can do this job yourself, then bring it to a very well known Ferrari mechanic.

    Best of luck to you,

    Vince
     
  15. Jh348

    Jh348 Karting

    Sep 5, 2015
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    Jesse Heinola
    Yep, i have read a lot of topics about these issues. And i think i have some part failing in my tranny, im guessing a bearing that affects most to lower gears contact (makes noise) as theres no noise in 4th or 5th gear. Also theres no noise in idle

    Car is on my garage and i will get it checked, but meanwhile its nice to guess :)

    Curious to see what u post ur topic
     
  16. Jh348

    Jh348 Karting

    Sep 5, 2015
    187
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    Jesse Heinola
    #16 Jh348, Oct 10, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Went to drain tranny oils and opened inspection plate. Nothing obvious came up, but theres obviously something going on judging by that magnet
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  17. vinny84

    vinny84 Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2008
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    Vince
    Just an FYI, my plug was totally clean. No metal on the plug.

    The only reason we discovered my issue is that I was hearing some noises in 3rd and after my mechanic riding with me and identifying what I was hearing was possibly an issue, we went ahead and took out the gearbox. Only then did we find the problems :(

    You just need to pull out that gearbox and inspect the gears. My car has 35k miles on it.
     
  18. Jh348

    Jh348 Karting

    Sep 5, 2015
    187
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    Jesse Heinola
    Will do that. Have u posted pics of your damage anywhere? Would be nice if the gears machined in the shafts were in decent condition, but many times thats just ridiculous hopes :D
     
  19. vinny84

    vinny84 Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2008
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    Vince
    Not yet, might do that later tonight though if I get home from work at a decent time. Haha yes, would be nice :)
     
  20. Jh348

    Jh348 Karting

    Sep 5, 2015
    187
    Finland
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    Jesse Heinola
    #20 Jh348, Oct 12, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    And boom. The ringnut had backed out so much that i could just pull the hole shaft out. Havent seen the gears but dont know, believe they are gone. Well, have to keep stripping
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  21. Jh348

    Jh348 Karting

    Sep 5, 2015
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    Jesse Heinola
    #21 Jh348, Oct 20, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Work progresses, slowly. Has factory used timken bearings or has this box been rebuilt?

    Im quite surprised that theres not so much damage despite that cutch shaft lockring had loosened fully
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  22. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    common failure easy to prevent. check your bevel and companion gear.
     
  23. Jh348

    Jh348 Karting

    Sep 5, 2015
    187
    Finland
    Full Name:
    Jesse Heinola
    Yes, theres some damage at clutch shaft gear. Splines are obviously worn and other face of the gear has rubbed in the casing, gear teeth are surprisingly fine (alto i dont know how much i have lost material of that gear hitting in casing)
     
  24. Jh348

    Jh348 Karting

    Sep 5, 2015
    187
    Finland
    Full Name:
    Jesse Heinola
    #24 Jh348, Oct 21, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Can someone who has un worn gear measure the thickness of it, or just remembers. I would then know how much mine has lost thickness
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  25. Jh348

    Jh348 Karting

    Sep 5, 2015
    187
    Finland
    Full Name:
    Jesse Heinola
    Have searched alot ot pics and threads but havent found a pic of one of those layshaft bearings (part no: 131334). Issue is mine doesnt have roller cage in it, as 3 other center bearings has. Manual speaks at some tool that keeps rollers place or whatever, so question is has the cage gone south or is it just some weird design not to have cage?

    Lets keep rollin
     

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