Real value of 360 6 speed.

I think the market is in a malaise of un-certainty. Seems to me that the cars just sit and don't move. I had never even heard of getting more for a car than what I purchased it for, other than fixer uppers, before getting in to a Ferrari. I just expected to loose a certain amount as the thing aged so that was never a consideration.

More or less mileage is relative to the cars condition but will affect a certain amount of the buying audience but who are they? and where are they? If there is a modern-ish Ferrari that can break some of the fear of "higher" mileage certainly the 360 is the one, but how long will that take?

The toy and what you get out of it is a very personal quality of life variable. I know the car is still right for me because I can take a drive and enter a different world of sensory immersion and I am changed in a positive way when I do this. So as long as she still gives back I am OK. The other test for me is that I can also see myself as that "old dude" with a Ferrari and the car in my garage is the one I can imagine myself with. It's cool enough and odd enough that the "cool" factor will last long after I am gone.

 

The only people who really think 6 speed 3 pedal cars are worth a significant premium................... are the owners of those cars IMO.

Hagerty web site used to say $50K premium.
Maybe $10K - $15K differential if all else is the same IMO
NO WAY.

Drive it, have fun.
What's a few thousand $$ in the long run??????

 

I can only speak for the ones I am casually watching. Your car is like several for sale at 105-115K or best offer. It is not an easy sell. A rich 30 something will probably gravitate to an R8, Gallardo, or 997 Turbo. Few, if any, think a stick is worth a premium.

I think the real market is 85-90k, and I don't think it's going up.

 

There are too many gated 360s for them to appreciate.

 

The ghost of Enzo commanded the mothership to send the good people of the United States of America gated 360's. He saw that they were good and once a year; over the course of the 5 year production run of the amazing vehicle, sent on average 3.12 coupes and 3.11 spiders each year to each of the 50 states in our great union. Some survived and are still with us to today looking for homes and others survive as parts vehicles for those of us who see the remarkable cars for what they are and keep them on the road. So it is written... in accordance with prophecy. ;-)

 

Hagerty web site still says $50K premium.

 

Kevin has a chart in another thread following the values . Sorry but they are still going up.

 

Why would you say that?

Roughly 27% of world production of the 360 is manual transmission. However, there is a lot to be desired in a manual 360 over its F1 counterpart and translates into a higher demand. You can argue rarity all day but it still comes down to more buyers for the car at a given price than supply and until price discovery reaches a state of equilibrium, prices move. The manual 360 is plenty rare enough for this as there are only about 2300 manual 360 coupes worldwide (700 or so in the US).

Contrast that to the F430. The manual transmission is much rarer (around 10% of production but production was notably higher than the 360s) but not only does the F1 version have a much improved F1 over the 360 (especially 2006 onward) but the car was built around the F1 system. The mannetino in the manual cars loses much of its functionality, as witnessed by the programming protocol for the e-diff ecu differences between the two (and remember there is no TCU in the manual cars). So, as many ask, if the car is so dumbed down in order to have a stick, what is the advantage of a manual F430? It lies mostly in its rarity. Unlike the 360, the advantage of the manual transmission in the F430 is largely (not solely but largely) one of rarity and that is the main driver behind its higher price. However, no one chooses the F430 because it is a "better" car. They choose it because they want the rarity and possibly prefer a manual transmission for the sake of having a manual transmission. There's nothing wrong with that but it's not the same motivation as the person buying the manual 360 and if you say the manual prices will never appreciate because of the numbers, then surely you would recognize that the F430 manual is not rare enough for the higher prices to be sustained solely by buyers seeking rarity. This type of buyer rarely equates to the type of "strong hands" that can shape a market over the long term.

The point is that it still comes back to supply and demand. If over time, more Ferrari enthusiasts choose a manual 360 because they prefer it, prices will go up. If, over that period of time, people who buy manual F430s because they are rare leave the marketplace because they found something new to chase, those prices will come down. Production numbers are simply numbers; supply and demand is the real context.

FWIW, I love both versions of the F430 equally and even ordered a manual F430 new. I'll probably add one at some point.

In the end if I had to put real numbers on it (all speculation, of course), I suspect that in the next three years that manual 360s will live around $130k and the equivalent manual F430s live someplace around $160k. The F1 F430 is just too good of a car to be ignored, especially in context of the price delta between the F1 and manual versions. Similarly, while the 360 F1 is a ton of car for $65k or wherever they trade for, it's not a better car than its manual brother so the 360 buyer who wants "more" will opt for the manual. They are two very different buyers with two very different motivations and history has already shown us how prices behave over time for each type of buyer.

I guess I will just add this noteworthy piece of opinion: I've owned 11 Ferraris from Daytona on up and I can't think of a manual transmission from Ferrari that is as nice to drive as the 360's.

 

I beg to differ or maybe because I'm not rich . I'm 30 something and I chosen a Ferrari 360 over those even though their all in my price range. Actually sold my 911 and M3 in the process because the 360 didn't give them any reason to be kept in my stable.

I doubt that it's "few, if any" but it's several otherwise Hagerty will not add the 50k premium in the appraisal system. It takes a good number of demographics and statistics feedback before Hagerty even budges their pricing estimate system.

The 50k premium from the valuation tool is there for a legible reason.

 

Very interesting points you make, as ever, and your Ferrari pedigree makes it hard to disagree!

However...there were 4749 gated 360s made. 2630 coupes and 2119 spiders. It's quite a high number, compared say to 575s of which there were 246 made. And the best estimates of gated 430s total spider and coupe vary between 1000 and 1500.

As with anything price will be driven by demand vs quantity as you say, not just numbers. But let me put out this statement: the 430 was the last manual midengined Ferrari. It is faster and handles better than a 360. Production numbers were around a third, or less, of the 360. The 360 manual has to deal with the 355, considered by some as a more pure car, and the 430, plus its nearly 5k production numbers.

It's all hypothesis and who knows. By the way your 360 sounds amazing but it is also a long way from a standard car available to us laymen!

 

Price today and price long term are not necessarily connected. People who grew up driving stick are getting older. The buying power is 40-50. As the current generation ages the prices may well soften for the manual. Look at the old Model A. Expensive 25 years ago but not so much so today.

 

Ouch. Yes. I'm 49 and I have five gated Ferraris!

But, who knows. Rich kids who weren't born during the quartz revolution are buying mechanical watches. No kid knows what a fax machine is. There are more print magazine launches by 20-30 year olds, brought up in the online era, now than ever before. Vinyl is coming back. VHS and Beta are not.

Who knows. But for what it's worth, I think gated manuals are more like mechanical watches than fax machines.

 

I'm talking about the present and not the future, not sure in which part of my response mentioned the future.

I agree with Darius, gated Ferrari's are more of the mechanical / automatic watches and Vinyl records, not like fax machines (I'm pretty sure we all Raristis will be in agreement on this). There will always be a good demand from hobbyist even in the future.

 

All good points. Hence why this is an interesting discussion! Your points about the F430 are well received which is part of why I think a manual F430 will always be worth a 15% or more higher than an equivalent 360.

We will have to revisit this in a few years.

 

Definitely!

 

I'm back in front of a computer so I can add a little more detail.

575m vs 360/F430 numbers: a manual 575m is a rare car indeed but the price difference between a manual 575m (or manual 599 for that matter) is a world of difference from that of the manual mid engine cars. This difference correlates mostly to the difference in rarity. That said, I suspect that the demand for a mid engine manual vs the front engine 575m is more but, again, supply and demand rules the day. Manual 575ms can have half the demand of its mid-engined siblings and the prices would much higher, due to production being a fraction of the mid engine cars.

My 360: I think that 360s like Trev's, Julian's, and mine are special cars and, as you suggest, cannot fairly be compared to stock 360s. That said, they are all labors of love and none were done with the intention of resale. The only real comparison that could be made is of the pleasure of driving and as you correctly point out, it's not a great comparison to stock car. So your point is duly noted. That said, I still feel like a stock 360 is a really wonderful car and should not be overlooked.

 

My 2001 360 is listed in the classifieds here for $85k. Lots of views, great comments from those who know the car, but no offers...

Not sure what's going to happen here...

 

Assuming you mean "manual transmission" (they're all 6 speeds, lol)...

Your twin in silver (instead of red) sold for $110k all-in a week ago today at Amelia Island (Gooding auction). Maybe you get a $5-10k bump for resale red. Call it $120k.

I'm at a similar crossroads with my 6MT...creeping up on 20,000 miles. Right now my mindset is to hold onto it (and drive it). The real rise in values is years away.

A mid-engined, gated Ferrari. There will be ups/downs but you don't need to be clairvoyant to know that the only direction the values are headed over the long term is "up".

 

I will just add that i have been looking for a really nice 360 six speed, red/tan with challenge grilles and shields. Few and far between, at least that are selling, and the few cars I have had as possibles, ultimately have had issues and yet folks still want $105k plus. I agree those sort of cars aren't moving at that price, but personally, I do think that a really nice six speed coupe is currently worth more (without giving away any bargaining power by saying how much more). Who knows though? Maybe I'm wrong and a year from now really nice cars will be $85k. Some how though, I doubt it.

 

I had no idea, I apologize.

I was foolishly using owners of cars for sale that are currently dropping their prices every month as my sample group.

 

Ultimately, the real value of your car is what someone is willing to pay for it and what you are willing to sell it for.

 

Concur with doc from the supply/demand perspective.

Three-pedal cars are demanding at least a $20k premium over F1.

Personally, just drive and enjoy it.... unless you're just in it for the money and not the Ferrari aura, mystique, and heritage.

 

People need to be considerate of other owners and start asking no less than $150k. That would help the overall values for 360s in general. We all know that values are artificially inflated or deflated. Start asking more, people will start paying more.

 

Uhh.. then why doesn't McDonalds just refuse to sell a hamburger for less than $20? You can ask whatever you want but all that matters is supply and demand. If no one is willing to pay the asking prices then no sales will occur.

I have been a member here for 10+ years and I have to say, I am getting a little tired of all the price discussions in the last few years. It was more enjoyable when people just talked about the cars.

OP - your car sounds like a great example. Let's see some photos!