NEED HELP -- roof won't go up

Sorry buddy, but I have no clue of what might be the reason.
Is there a good mechanic that you trust to let him have a look?
I guess it will be a process of elimination from now on.

 

When you push the button to go up, Do you you hear the hydro pump running?

 

The top mechanism is very complex on the 360/430 and repairing it is probably a learned skill that I hope never to have to master. On my Porsche, its one motor driving an elaborate accordion. On the 360/460 its a symphony with a multi valve hydraulic system and electro mechanical system with its own ECU. Not to mention the system is super expensive to replace as a component. So now I have told you lots of stuff that you clearly already know.

I almost bought a coupe instead of spider for this very reason!

So now some recommendations:

**ALL TOP WORK SHOULD BE DONE WITH AT LEAST TWO PEOPLE! If not you will probably scratch or damage something. I try and have three people if switch actuation is also necessary.

1. Read the factory manual on replacing the entire mechanism. It will get you familiar with the big picture. I would start at page 1125 (of pdf) aka [page 85 printed in manual] of Workshop Manual 360 Spider Vol 1 and 2.pdf. I really enjoyed the read, was interesting but took a few hours (with distractions). This should give you lots of ideas on where to start.
http://www.ferraridatabase.com/The_Downloads/Manuals_Workshop.htm

2. Take images and post them here of anything that seems suspicious. The oil level like on page 1139, etc.

3. Check all microswitches like on page 1129. You can do this while manually putting your top up or down. Test them by making sure the circuit changes when the switch clicks, and make sure the switch "appears" to be clicking at the right point. It might be easier to connect a meter to the pins at the ECU for the microswitch under test. Use the BEEP continuity test so you can hear the circuit as it opens/closes. Page 1130 describes each microswitch and its position->action. read it and test an easy microswitch and you will get the idea.

4. Hydraulic Testing; Its a 200 bar system!! 1 bar = 1 atm, so 200 is down right dangerous. The manual states you cant component level troubleshoot the hydraulic system with the top in the car, i might agree. You can however make sure the solenoids are being fired from the ECU by checking them for 12v. (probably ground fired, easier on the transistors).

5. To reset the top ECU, try unplugging it for a long duration.

6. I doubt it is "stuck" the system is very strong. More likely a sensor issue or other electrical gremlin.

7. Top down is a great place to be stuck, it sure beats UP, and half UP.

8. Keep us posted on the progress and especially the resolution.

 

I recommend you check the voltage at the pump, not the battery. Voltage can drop through the fuse, relay and wire-connectors.

 

I had a similar recurring problem with a Boxster. It was a faulty brake switch. I don't know the Spider roof procedure, but on a Boxster the parking brake must be engaged in order to operate the roof. Because of the bad switch the car was not able to recognize when the brake was engaged, hence the up/down procedure was never able to initiate.

I'd bet its a simple roof or brake switch. Good luck.

 

From the aforementioned PDF

Pin 6 of connector 4Q of the top ECU : Page 1141 : Controls the relay which is near the hydraulic pump. This relay appears to be illustrated on page 1154 labeled "Hydraulic pump relay" and is located right beside the rollbar near the solenoid assembly. Image on same page.

The relay and pump position is also illustrated in: http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=737

The relay has a diagram on it, so just use the diagram to determine which pins to measure voltage across. My guess is the standard Bosch pin annotation: My guess is pin 30 and pin 87. It could be 87a, but I doubt it.

The spider top pump is integrated in the assembly: 66954300, I dont recommend disassembling this assembly, you can measure the electrical properties from the relay, which is very conveniently located. You may want to grab a replacement from an autoparts store and swap it out. If the armatures are burnt, it could cause a substantial voltage and current drop.

To measure the voltage across Pin 30 and 87, you might be able to push the voltmeter leads into the relay harness from the bottom, or if not, you can remove the relay, and insert two thin wires into the socket, then reinsert the relay, then meter the wires. The relay does need to be in place to measure the voltage. I do not recommend measuring the current, your meter will need to be able to handle at least 30 amps (or whatever the fuse is on this circuit) and to measure current you need to be in series with the circuit, as opposed to parallel for measuring voltage.

 

I would take it to a dealer and have them diagnose. Have you read some of the treads on what happens when a top piece breaks. I wouldn't mess with it. Call your closest dealer, have them walk you through the manual operation, and make a diagnostic appointment.

 

Porsche club hacker; because the hydraulic pump makes noise when he actuates the top switch, we are ruling out the safety circuits at this time. Like on your Box, the safety circuits (speed input, top latch microswitch, e-brake microswitch, etc) would prevent the actuation motor from running in the first place. Happy Boxstering! (I push a 3.4L Converted Box around with 344 HP)

 

My mistake - I only read the first post.

I sidestepped any future potential up/down issues by getting a Boxster Spyder

Best of luck to the OP.

 

Why would you need any wire if you can access the relay pins in free space?

Use thin wire (so if you screw up the wire will be the fuse), and you only need two pieces of wire, pin 30 and 87. You dont need to monitor the trigger wires, UNLESS the relay is not triggering.

Tests: Assuming pin 30 is 12v with ignition ON. This could be a ground controlled circuit. Then you will need to find the hot wire to the motor.
1. Measure voltage drop across 30 and 87 with motor ON
2. Measure voltage between 30 and ground with motor ON and OFF
3. Measure voltage between 87 and ground with motor ON and OFF

 

BTW I try to always have the engine running when operating the top. Why run down the battery?

When my top wouldn't work I would shut off the car and start it up again. the top usually worked my assumption was that the computer had to reset itself.

Since they replaced some sensors, the top works perfect now.

Caution: make sure the top goes completely through the cycle before taking your finger off the button. When opening that means don't take your finger off the button until you hear the beeps. When closing I wait until the window go all the way up as an abundance of caution.

I ditto the having the dealership or an experience pro work on the top. The replacement cost is $10k to $40K...there was a thread on this.

Hope you get it working soon.

 

Q0>I am assuming you have pins 87 and 30 backwards in your testing or reporting, if not something is terribly wrong. Please reverify?
=== All further comments assume that you just has 30 and 87 reversed in your testing/reporting ===
Q1>Was the top working as expected during these tests?
Q2>I am assuming the top only moved during test 1c, is this correct?
If the answer to Q2 = Yes, then your data makes sense which is good. But this raises a new Q:
Q3>(based on Yes for Q2)>Please explain in detail the difference between "motor on" and "motor on, operating roof". I was assuming that if you were hearing the hydraulic motor spinning the top would be moving or you have a solenoid valve issue. BUT the fact there is no current flow during test 1a, then the motor should not be running. Stated another way for clarity; In test 1a it says motor-on, but the voltage is 14v, which indicates to me based on the schematic I have provided below, that the relay has not fired and 30 and 87 have no continuity (not connected), thus the motor is not getting a voltage potential, and thus can not run. So if you are hearing a sound, is it the pump or maybe the solenoids or something else?
Q4> Measure the voltage across Relay Pins 85 and 86 for Top Switch ON and OFF with top moving and not moving:
4a. Voltage drop across 85 and 86, top switch on = ?
4b. Voltage drop across 85 and 86, top switch on = ?
4c. Voltage drop across 85 and 86, top switch on + motor on, operating roof = ?

It is my understanding that the top works sometimes and sometimes it does not.

In general a 1.4 - 2v drop is not bad across a low ohm load like the DC Hyd Pump.

Summary: The issue is that you say the motor is on, yet the relay has not been triggered. After test 4a,b,c I think we will determine that the relay is fine, just the ECU is not firing the relay all of the time, pointing us toward the sensors.


Your circuit looks like this:
|---[DC Hyd Motor]---|
|............................|
|.....................[PIN 87]
|.....................[RELAY ]
|.....................[PIN 30]
|............................|
|---- [ -Battery +]----|
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Yes, sorry. It is nice to know the voltage deltas between gasoline engine on / off. But I was referring to hydraulic motor on/off, or more clearly top-switch on/off.

 

All of this data looks good. That also means we dont have the issue isolated as of yet.

Can you elaborate on the status of the top motion during the test?

i.e. 3a. Voltage between 87 and ground, roof motor DOWN = 14V [Top moving down as expected] or maybe [Top not moving, but pump is spinning audibly] etc.

Next we will start checking fail-safe mechanisms, but I would like to get a better handle on the top motion failures, how often it works, the expected speed, etc.