CS Reliability

[arizonaitalian]

Originally Posted by CogitoErgoZoom

Unfortunately not yet. Hope to remedy that soon though. From what I've read it does seem they have quite different personalities though, as similar as they are.

Yes, they are very different, that's why I asked. For me and for the "role" I want the car to fill in my garage, the CS or Scud were the only Ferrari's to fit the bill. The 430 is fantastic no doubt, but the CS is so very raw and loud and racy...you really do (of course) have to drive both to know what you want...

Originally Posted by CogitoErgoZoom

that would have been awkward! do you really think the front end height hinders the everyday usability of the car? mine's not exactly going to be a daily driver, but i do plan on using it regularly.

Actually, the ride height is not the biggest thing that keeps the CS from being a daily driver (to me daily driver doesn't mean you drive it each day - rather it means you only drive "it" every day and you take it everywhere you go). So, "yes" the CS can be driven every day if you like. But, "no" I don't enjoy taking it for long freeway runs (too loud) or to run errands (a bunch of reasons, mostly parking related). I use the CS for "fun" drives and the occasional track day. I also take it out 2x per week just to go to lunch or whatever.

[CogitoErgoZoom]

Actually, the ride height is not the biggest thing that keeps the CS from being a daily driver (to me daily driver doesn't mean you drive it each day - rather it means you only drive "it" every day and you take it everywhere you go). So, "yes" the CS can be driven every day if you like. But, "no" I don't enjoy taking it for long freeway runs (too loud) or to run errands (a bunch of reasons, mostly parking related). I use the CS for "fun" drives and the occasional track day. I also take it out 2x per week just to go to lunch or whatever.

My usage would be pretty similar as to what you've described. When I say "daily driver" I basically mean a car you can use for all purposes with little punishment in the way of excessive noise, harsh ride, gas mileage, etc. In my mind, something like a current Porsche 911 Turbo can easily be used as your one-and-only primary vehicle if you really wanted to without too much worry about reliability and comfort issues. Could you say the same about a "standard" F430? I don't know, I don't have enough experience. Even if that is the case, I still don't see any Ferrari being my one and only vehicle.

If I go the CS route what I'm basically looking for is the equivalent of a 4-wheeled version of my Ducati (please don't flame for that bit of sacrilege!), which is what a car like the CS seems like to me, but of course way more awesome. If that's the case I'll probably get a nice comfortable truck, SUV, or sedan to go along with it. While I won't use the CS as everyday transportation, I do want to use it like I use my bike: fun runs, day trips out to good B roads, the odd track day, etc.

What I don't want is so something so fragile that I'm too worried to use it on a regular basis for fear of not being able to clear parking lot humps. It doesn't sound like I have much to worry about with the CS from the way you guys have described it though.

[Spdrcrj]

I think if you get a PPI and well sorted CS, you'll have piece of mind. I never got either with my Gallardo (I know, idiot) and always wondered about the condition of the car. Turns out, the clutch lasted 1k miles and was gone. My CS however, received a fresh major (that I got to watch the end of being performed), the tech ran through the entire SD3 system with me on the car and showed me a few past errors and that the car was running perfectly now, have the full service history on the car, and I bought from a dealer/had the car serviced by guys with fantastic reputations. Point is, I drive my car whenever it's sunny and dont have any of the trepidation I had with the gallardo.

[Jompen]

Had mine for four years. This year they noticed some small oil drops at the gearbox. A known problem on 360/CS. No oil on undertray but need to take apart the gearbox from 3rd to 6th. Alot of hours...

Also front wisbones needs to be replaced due to they "rattle". Not common but heard of 430´s, 360´s with the same problem.

Car has 10.000 miles on it and a few trackdays a year.

Also brake discs needs to be replaced every second time you change pads. Pads lasts for years in normal use though.

An amazing machine the CS

[arizonaitalian]

Originally Posted by CogitoErgoZoom

My usage would be pretty similar as to what you've described. When I say "daily driver" I basically mean a car you can use for all purposes with little punishment in the way of excessive noise, harsh ride, gas mileage, etc. In my mind, something like a current Porsche 911 Turbo can easily be used as your one-and-only primary vehicle if you really wanted to without too much worry about reliability and comfort issues. Could you say the same about a "standard" F430? I don't know, I don't have enough experience. Even if that is the case, I still don't see any Ferrari being my one and only vehicle.

If I go the CS route what I'm basically looking for is the equivalent of a 4-wheeled version of my Ducati (please don't flame for that bit of sacrilege!), which is what a car like the CS seems like to me, but of course way more awesome. If that's the case I'll probably get a nice comfortable truck, SUV, or sedan to go along with it. While I won't use the CS as everyday transportation, I do want to use it like I use my bike: fun runs, day trips out to good B roads, the odd track day, etc.

What I don't want is so something so fragile that I'm too worried to use it on a regular basis for fear of not being able to clear parking lot humps. It doesn't sound like I have much to worry about with the CS from the way you guys have described it though.

I think your "4 wheel ducati" analogy is the right one and the use you describe is right on. The CS fits that bill perfectly (for me anyways). I pair it with a Jeep for SUV type duty and parking at airports etc and with a GT/Spider for crusing with the GF on weekends or running to work, errands.

[watt]

Originally Posted by CogitoErgoZoom

My usage would be pretty similar as to what you've described. When I say "daily driver" I basically mean a car you can use for all purposes with little punishment in the way of excessive noise, harsh ride, gas mileage, etc. In my mind, something like a current Porsche 911 Turbo can easily be used as your one-and-only primary vehicle if you really wanted to without too much worry about reliability and comfort issues. Could you say the same about a "standard" F430? I don't know, I don't have enough experience. Even if that is the case, I still don't see any Ferrari being my one and only vehicle.

If I go the CS route what I'm basically looking for is the equivalent of a 4-wheeled version of my Ducati (please don't flame for that bit of sacrilege!), which is what a car like the CS seems like to me, but of course way more awesome. If that's the case I'll probably get a nice comfortable truck, SUV, or sedan to go along with it. While I won't use the CS as everyday transportation, I do want to use it like I use my bike: fun runs, day trips out to good B roads, the odd track day, etc.

What I don't want is so something so fragile that I'm too worried to use it on a regular basis for fear of not being able to clear parking lot humps. It doesn't sound like I have much to worry about with the CS from the way you guys have described it though.

i drove my strads 4-5 days a week [rarely on weekends[ and they just go and provide profound pleasure, these are superb rigs. now i drive my scud to work and howling over the canyons 4-5 days a week, the only difference more torque, grip and amusement,
you cant go wrong with a strad, trust me you got it nailed

[Ingenere]

I've had my CS 2 years and its been bullet proof. I drive it regularly. It sees the track, errands, trips, etc.

A few months ago I did a drive over to LA for the weekend and the sport seats were great for the trip.

Buy it and drive it! It never ceases to put a smile on my face.

[CogitoErgoZoom]

Originally Posted by Spdrcrj

I think if you get a PPI and well sorted CS, you'll have piece of mind.

I'll learn from your example, Jim. I'm basically looking for exactly what you got. I've learned from this site that on any used Ferrari a PPI is "smart money".

Originally Posted by Jompen

Had mine for four years. This year they noticed some small oil drops at the gearbox. A known problem on 360/CS. No oil on undertray but need to take apart the gearbox from 3rd to 6th. Alot of hours...

Also front wisbones needs to be replaced due to they "rattle". Not common but heard of 430´s, 360´s with the same problem.

Car has 10.000 miles on it and a few trackdays a year.

Also brake discs needs to be replaced every second time you change pads. Pads lasts for years in normal use though.

An amazing machine the CS

Thanks for your perspective. I don't expect that the car to run perfectly forever and I know that I will at some point a minor or major repair will be required...that's just something you take on when you buy a car like this. If you have any more details on the carbon ceramic brakes, I'd be interested to hear it. how many miles/pad life, pad cost, etc. Has anyone here ever replaced an entire brake system on a CS?

[ferrame]

how many miles/pad life, pad cost, etc. Has anyone here ever replaced an entire brake system on a CS?[/QUOTE]

I have my CS since Jan '06 with 1600 miles and will soon turn 12k miles. It's been tracked a few times a year, there's no problems so far but the brake pads are being replaced at the cost of $2000 for front axles and another $2000 for rear axles and just for pads without labor. Nevertheless the rotors still look great. I have been really happy with my CS. :-)

[arizonaitalian]

Originally Posted by CogitoErgoZoom

If you have any more details on the carbon ceramic brakes, I'd be interested to hear it. how many miles/pad life, pad cost, etc. Has anyone here ever replaced an entire brake system on a CS?

I only know a few things (there are several threads on this forum, so do a search for CCM or whatever):

- I got my car with 13.7k miles and the brake rotors SD report read 14% used.
- I serviced it recently at 15.7k miles and the brake rotors SD report read 15% used.
- The visual inspections both times said they are in great shape.
- Pads did not wear even 1mm in the 2k miles and, at age 8, still have years to go...
- During the one year I've had it I put those 2k miles on it and tracked it for several 20-minute sessions. I was afraid the heat cycles would build up, but as it turns out, not so much.

So, I conclude 2 things about the CCM brakes on the CS (and all ferrari CCM brakes btw):
- The last a long time.
- They cost a lot to replace (rotors and pads are ~$36k. - there are rumors that one can use "generic" parts that are from the same supplier but intended for Corvettes and cut that cost significantly).


That said, I have not seen the "math" to even conclude if the CCM costs more or less than steel over their "life". Either way, as long as you check the heat cycle report in the SD and have them visually inspected during the PPI, you won't likely have to worry about them.

[arizonaitalian]

Originally Posted by CogitoErgoZoom

Gents,

After going through DiscoInferno's slightly frightening thread about his ongoing experience using his F430 as a daily driver, and the various electrical gremlins and problems he has had getting the vehicle serviced properly, it set me wondering about how the CS has generally been in terms of reliability.

Can current and pas CS owners comment on what their experiences have been like in terms of reliability?

I will be living and operating the car in the central Texas area and don't want to be facing the same issues he's gone through. While it would be a stretch to say I'll be using the car as a daily driver, I do expect a certain reasonable amount of quality / reliability out of a modern car. And while I have the means to acquire the car, I also don't want to be spending an additional 15-20% on repairs out of the gate.

Your perspectives would be much appreciated.

I "get" your concern about an exotic car breaking and getting stuck with a "huge" repair bill. Its a legitimate concern and it does happen (there are stories in all of the forums here and I've seen a few $20-$30k repair bills on a few cars that I've evaluated over the past couple of years). That said, there are only a few of those stories and the vast, vast majority of us (hold on, gotta go knock some wood) only have required services and replacement of wear items.

I have not seen anything in my (admittedly limited) experience to suggest any of the post 1998 Ferrari's have a unique issue to a specific model that is a "major" problem (yes there are header issues and engine mount issues and a few other things that some of the models have in relative frequency - I would generally call those "minor" (like the engine mounts on 550) or "infrequent" (like the spider roof issues that are major but infrequent).

With that said, IMHO the things you can do to minimize the risk of a major break and repair are:

- Read everything you can find here
- Post a thread like this to surface a bit more info
- Get a PPI
- Research the target car's history of repairs
- Buy one that has been driven a bit and was not a museum piece
- Ensure the required maint is performed by a quality technician on schedule

That's all you can do (perhaps others will chime in with some things I didn't think of this morning).

I did the research, evaluated several cars, had PPi done on 3 and finally bought my CS last year. I love it and wish I had gotten one years ago. I suspect you will feel the same way when you get one. If the risk of breakage (as now described about as fully as you are going to get) bothers you too much, then get a Porsche. If, OTOH, you can accept that risk and let yourself splurge and enjoy, then you will get to enjoy one of the great modern sports cars.

Let us know how your search turns out.

[ASK328]

My late model CS has been perfect, a few thousand miles owned her for over a year and no issues.

[CogitoErgoZoom]

A sincere thanks to everyone that has replied and shared their experience.

In my day job I get paid to make sure all the angles have been covered and I'm a bit of an "over preparer" by nature, so I'm just weighing all the facts to make sure I'm making an informed decision on the CS vs. F430 question.

cheers,
Marc

[MChanMD]

Originally Posted by arizonaitalian

With that said, IMHO the things you can do to minimize the risk of a major break and repair are:

- Read everything you can find here
- Post a thread like this to surface a bit more info
- Get a PPI
- Research the target car's history of repairs
- Buy one that has been driven a bit and was not a museum piece
- Ensure the required maint is performed by a quality technician on schedule

That's all you can do (perhaps others will chime in with some things I didn't think of this morning).

My CS had 15K miles on and driven regularly. I wanted a 1000-4000 mile car and essentially reconciled myself to a F430. Man, am I glad I got a CS! My car had a known history on this site (Known to stokpro and NNO) and fully documented on all the service, all the check engine lights, every spark plug changed and the date plus any gasket changes or oil changes. I even had the brake and clutch life measurements over the entire life of the car. These cars exist and you only need to find one.

[ross]

it depends on what you do with it....
as soon as i bought it, i tracked it rather hard at imola and mugello. tires gone. brakes damaged at mugello, so fronts had to be replaced - not cheap.

while it was in there for that, i applied my track insurance and had the front bumper repainted, and a couple other small things done to bring it back to perfect.

then i did the mille in it, and had forgotten to put the clear plastic on the front bumper and it got all pitted again. but thats just road rash. everything else held up fine.

regular services before and after all of these hijinks.

so, its a tough car, provided you do the servicing especially after tracking. but when things go wrong they get very expensive very fast.

its one of my all time favorite cars, but i dont think i would drive it every day. the noise, the harsh ride, the difficulty of entry and exit, the attention, the speed bumps, the parking hassle....just not worth it.

[Ingenere]

Originally Posted by CogitoErgoZoom

A sincere thanks to everyone that has replied and shared their experience.

In my day job I get paid to make sure all the angles have been covered and I'm a bit of an "over preparer" by nature, so I'm just weighing all the facts to make sure I'm making an informed decision on the CS vs. F430 question.

cheers,
Marc

Stop 'getting ready to get ready'. Step up and get the CS. You will love it.

[CogitoErgoZoom]

Originally Posted by Ingenere

Stop 'getting ready to get ready'. Step up and get the CS. You will love it.

Well, I've been looking for all of two weeks now. I can't believe I haven't found the right one yet.

It's obvious that the car is great and any true enthusiast would love it, but I also haven't closed the door on the F430 option. When I get a chance to check out and/or drive both, I'll make that decision. Given that I'm already leaning towards the CS, when the right car comes along at the price I've established to pay, I'll go for it.

[BLAMPEE]

Originally Posted by arizonaitalian

A friend flew into the airport and wanted me to pick her up in it...so of course I "test drove" the route the day before in my maser just to be sure I knew what bumps were there...I've gotten over my initial jitters thankfully...

This is EXCELLENT NEWS!!!

I may need a ride (in a CS) from the airport when I fly back to Phoenix in June.

[CogitoErgoZoom]

Originally Posted by ross

it depends on what you do with it....
as soon as i bought it, i tracked it rather hard at imola and mugello. tires gone. brakes damaged at mugello, so fronts had to be replaced - not cheap.

while it was in there for that, i applied my track insurance and had the front bumper repainted, and a couple other small things done to bring it back to perfect.

then i did the mille in it, and had forgotten to put the clear plastic on the front bumper and it got all pitted again. but thats just road rash. everything else held up fine.

regular services before and after all of these hijinks.

so, its a tough car, provided you do the servicing especially after tracking. but when things go wrong they get very expensive very fast.

its one of my all time favorite cars, but i dont think i would drive it every day. the noise, the harsh ride, the difficulty of entry and exit, the attention, the speed bumps, the parking hassle....just not worth it.

I admire that you're using it for the purpose it was intended for. I have no problem paying to play, I just like to know what I'm getting into before I get into it. CCBs aren't cheap to replace on any car, so one couldn't say that's a 'CS issue'. Tires are a given if you're doing track days.

The negatives you describe aren't necessarily deal-breakers for me. My last car here in Singapore, which cost me about as much to acquire here as the current CS market price in the U.S. due to Singapore's car rationing taxation system, was a Lotus Elise 111. While not as focused a track toy as the CS, it wasn't exactly a practical daily driver either. I'm 6'2" and 215lb, so entry/exit was a royal pain. But once I was behind the wheel I stopped caring about any of that. It also saw numerous track days at Sepang and held up reasonably well.

[Nashtyboy]

Originally Posted by CogitoErgoZoom

My usage would be pretty similar as to what you've described. When I say "daily driver" I basically mean a car you can use for all purposes with little punishment in the way of excessive noise, harsh ride, gas mileage, etc. In my mind, something like a current Porsche 911 Turbo can easily be used as your one-and-only primary vehicle if you really wanted to without too much worry about reliability and comfort issues. Could you say the same about a "standard" F430? I don't know, I don't have enough experience. Even if that is the case, I still don't see any Ferrari being my one and only vehicle.

If I go the CS route what I'm basically looking for is the equivalent of a 4-wheeled version of my Ducati (please don't flame for that bit of sacrilege!), which is what a car like the CS seems like to me, but of course way more awesome. If that's the case I'll probably get a nice comfortable truck, SUV, or sedan to go along with it. While I won't use the CS as everyday transportation, I do want to use it like I use my bike: fun runs, day trips out to good B roads, the odd track day, etc.

What I don't want is so something so fragile that I'm too worried to use it on a regular basis for fear of not being able to clear parking lot humps. It doesn't sound like I have much to worry about with the CS from the way you guys have described it though.

If you care about gas mileage (as mentioned above), Ferrari is not the way to go.

The 430 is a comfortable car for an exotic and starts whenever you push the button, but it is an event to drive it. I wouldn't want it as my only car simply because sometimes you want to go somewhere without everyone pointing and taking pictures (YMMV depending on where you live). Also like someone mentioned above, you'll probably want to park it in places where it won't get dinged, so that could cut some places out.

Once you get one, I think your ideas about how often and where you'll use it will change. There's just no way to predict how you'll actually feel about the car once you get it. Starting it up and driving it somewhere is an event that I don't think you'll want to make mundane by doing it every day. I drive mine about twice a week when the weather is nice, which seems plenty to keep it running happily, and allows for maximum enjoyment while keeping it clean for long stretches .