First brake bleed 360 | FerrariChat

First brake bleed 360

Discussion in '360/430' started by f360nh, Aug 25, 2014.

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  1. f360nh

    f360nh Karting

    Apr 12, 2014
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    Full Name:
    John Q.
    So I did a brake bleeding fluid replacement job this past weekend and have some follow-up questions.

    I used a Motive power bleeder with the Euro adapter for the master cylinder reservoir. The unit head (adapter) is pretty much junk and the system would not hold pressure until I put a lot of Teflon tape between the threads. Eventually I got it to go.

    My way of bleeding was to fill the reservoir then use the Motive as a pressure generator only.

    I started at the farthest caliper and worked my way in closer one by one - passenger rear, driver rear, passenger front, driver front. I also did the rear nipple first then the front one.

    I used a different color brake fluid so I could tell when the new fluid is flowing.

    Some concerns:

    (1) I was only able to put about 0.7-0.8L through the system before the new fluid showed up at all the bleeding points. I thought the 360 takes 1.5L of fluid, but some of it is trapped in the ABS which obviously I cannot engage. Is 0.7 L to little to put through for a bleed?

    (2) The brakes are now soft -- I was careful not to let the reservoir run dry, and went back and forth many times (8-10 times in all) to add the 0.7 L of fluid in stages (basically every little bit of draining, I would stop and top-off the reservoir before connecting the Motive pressure generator. So I'm pretty sure the reservoir did not run dry.

    With this being said, and especially for (2) above, should I look into bleeding the master cylinder, and if yes, then how do I get access to the second nipple on it? The one nipple I see below the reservoir I can probably get to from the top with a small wrench.
     
  2. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
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    Aug 25, 2005
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    Not sure why you didn't use fluid in the Motive. It is a lot easier and less error prone.

    First time I did mine I had a hard time sealing as well. Then I realized that I had forgotten the rubber gasket in the cap that attached to the reservoir. Once I put that back in, it sealed up perfectly. My money is on you missing the rubber gasket.
     
  3. f360nh

    f360nh Karting

    Apr 12, 2014
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    John Q.
    Nope -- had the rubber gasket and tried it both ways.

    The problem that I saw with my combo is that there are only two turns of threads on both the reservoir cap and the Motive bleeder, so turning the Motive cap all the way in as tight as possible it catches and then fully releases.

    This problem is worse with the rubber gasket as there are less turns allowed before it's all the way in and slips right out.

    I think Motive sells a higher end metal unit which may have more threads or seal better, but I was pretty disappointed.

    With the sealing issues I had I'm actually glad I did not put brake fluid in it as it would have gone all over the car.
     
  4. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
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    When I first bled the brakes in my Modena.. the stoopid pedal went down to near the floor.

    I was so annoyed.

    Then I realized that I had to bleed the nipples on the master cylinder. I bled them and the pedal was then nice and firm. Simply used a small 7mm wrench I want to say and gently opened the bleed nipples. Not sure if this is what you were asking. BTW when I first bled the car it was by pumping alone.
     
  5. f360nh

    f360nh Karting

    Apr 12, 2014
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    John Q.
    I see the first nipple at the top of the master cylinder underneath the reservoir -- it takes an 8 mm wrench.

    Where is the second nipple, and how do I get access to it -- is it on the bottom side of the master cylinder and if yes is there a recommended procedure on how to get to it?

    Also, how much fluid did you flush through the system, I thought 0.7 L or so is too low when the manual specifies 1.5 L.
     
  6. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Try the 8mm nipple. Bleed it and see if that improves things. I'll wager it will. I recall there being a second nipple.. I might be mistaken or possibly mine is an older MC ('99). If you haven't yet done it, consider removing the panel in the front compartment in front of the windshield with the tire inflator strapped to it. At the very least it will give better access.

    The ABS/ASR unit will take some fluid in it. Also consider residual in the calipers, lines, etc. If your car stops, then you're good to go. To completely bleed the ABS/ASR system you need a leonardo or SD2 with the bleed function activated. When I did mine I used the pedal pump and it worked perfectly fine. The engineers have desinged the system so if you have a loss of vacuum or power and even ABS/ASR, it will still stop.
     
  7. ncjetskier

    ncjetskier Formula 3

    Jul 7, 2012
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    I called Motive before ordering. The gentleman that I spoke with was very knowledgeable and familiar with Ferraris and the different caps. (I have no affiliation with Motive).

    Why did you not put your new brake fluid in the Motive? It would seem that not putting fluid in the Motive would result in air in your lines.
     
  8. f360nh

    f360nh Karting

    Apr 12, 2014
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    John Q.
    My understanding is that there are two ways to use the Motive:

    (1) as per the manufacturer spec, fill it with fluid and then pump the fluid through the Motive and through the cap/reservoir until system is bled;

    (2) use it as a pressure generator -- which it does as part if (1) above -- and just top off the fluid in the tank.

    Given that it was my first change on the 360 and the first use of the Motive for this car I wanted to be careful. It also concerned me when I first connected the Motive and wasn't able to easily hold pressure because of the cap connection. Therefore I got worried that the cap may come off and brake fluid may drip inside the reservoir compartment or (worse) have it spray/spill on the external car surfaces.
     
  9. GaryR

    GaryR Formula 3

    Dec 11, 2006
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    Anyone know if the Motiv "Euro adapter" is the same on a 360 as a 911? I guess I can simply try it and find out, my Motiv came with a nice knurled aluminum cap, I would suggest getting that if you don't have one. I always dump a full litre into the Motive and bleed all bleeders until the Motiv starts to suck air, bringing the reservoir down just below full then depressurize the Motiv bleeding the line back into it. Disconnect and top off reservoir, done.
     
  10. ncjetskier

    ncjetskier Formula 3

    Jul 7, 2012
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    No problem. The Motive is really good if the cap fits correctly. The reason I called the company was due to doing a search on FC and reading problems that other people had with the cap. I would call the company, tell them what make, model and year to get the correct cap. I would definitely put the new brake fluid in the Motive and re flush the lines as it sounds like you may have air in the lines.

    It is good that you are willing to work on your own car. Very rewarding when the job is done.
     
  11. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    When I used the Motiv on mine the silly cap didn't fit right. Just a tad too big. Even putting a seal beneath it helped some..

    Where did you get the aluminum cap?
     
  12. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
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    Pittsburgh, PA
    Here's the motive I use on my 308 and 430. Works very well. Definitely need teflon tape at all the connections. I use 6-10PSI. You should get many threads of engagement. Also make sure you are locking the pump handle in place after building the pressure.

    Amazon.com: Motive Products Power Bleeder - European- Black Label: Automotive

    Sorry to hear you had trouble. Once you get the right connection, it will literally take you 30-60mins.
     
  13. GaryR

    GaryR Formula 3

    Dec 11, 2006
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    Here is the one I have, from my 911 race car days, which is the same unit as mentioned above on Amazon.

    Black Label European Adapter 1109
     
  14. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    That's my bleeder! Only I have the stock black cap. Thanks for the heads up on the better cap!
     
  15. f360nh

    f360nh Karting

    Apr 12, 2014
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    Yes, I guess I have the standard black plastic cap one, which may not be as good.

    I've been in touch with Motive as well and they mentioned that even the regular cap (European adapter) which I have should do the job very well but I should make sure that I have at least 4 thread turns inside the adapter. Mine has only about 2 turns so they are puzzled why this may be. I'll send over some pictures and I guess they would be able to replace this (or hopefully I can add some $ and get the metal one).

    Once I gain confidence in how it works and holds pressure I will definitely use it the way it's intended.
     
  16. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Apr 26, 2006
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    This cap will fit virtually every Ferrari going back almost 40 years, excluding the 365bb and a few others. I regularly use that cap on 360s, 430s, 550s, 456s and 308 without any issues. The Motive device works perfectly when used as intended. If you pressurize the system with 'just' air and the system fluid level gets too low, you will create much additional work for yourself.
     
  17. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Full disclosure: I bought a mity-vac and it is f#$%ing awesome.

    Though nothing beats just pumping the pedal..
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Right up until you are doing a new clients car that has not had a fluid change in years and the sludge and debris laying on the bottom of the cylinder just past the normal travel of the seals now takes out the seals due to the extra length of the stroke. You call up new client (or old client with a new to him car) and say "You need a new master cylinder" and he responds with "It worked fine when I brought it in".

    That is why we use pressure bleeders. Takes longer but we don't destroy functioning master cylinders.
     
  19. GaryR

    GaryR Formula 3

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    That what my race shop told me also, glad to see it confirmed..
     
  20. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Damn it! first I couldn't drink.. then it was sugar. NOW I can't use my easy ass suctionator?


    Knowledge pearl taken. Grasshopper say thank you. :)

    As an aside, only issue I ever had with the motive when bleeding my 928's slave cylinder was the clutch line hissed.. solo close from popping off. Blue line wasn't clamped. Got lucky..
     
  21. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
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    Never knew that. Appreciate you sharing that experience.
     
  22. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
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    Sorry you had problems. I too bought the cap others are recommending so maybe that is the ticket.
     
  23. f360nh

    f360nh Karting

    Apr 12, 2014
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    I talked to Motive and I'll ask them to return the one I have and supplement the $ required to get the metal one. Will report back...
     
  24. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2012
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    I have had no issues with my pressure bleeder (Motive)....check your connections, and it's almost foolproof. Never pump a master cylinder past it's favorite spot....


     
  25. Black360

    Black360 Formula Junior

    Oct 11, 2010
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    #25 Black360, Aug 26, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You most likely introduced air into the system.

    Throw the standard cap away; use the metal cap. Not everyone has trouble with the standard cap, but I have not heard of anyone complaining about the metal cap. It fits properly, and it also allows you to tighten the cap without twisting the hose.

    Here are the Motive instructions, for when you get your new cap:
    frame-instruct.htm

    The instructions suggest testing with an empty bottle before bleeding. If it can't hold a steady 10 psi for a few minutes, something is wrong.

    I've also attached a picture of the master cylinder.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     

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