Is it possible to buy a 360 closer to wholesale than retail

Everyone wishes they could do this.

Get a friend who can bid at auction and buy it through them.

 

a lot of car dealers browse through the forums and buy cars from individuals. their pitch is that they are willing to buy a car from a private party even if there is a balance owed on the car. Seldom you will find an individual trying to buy from an individual when the title is not is hand. too much of a risk.

 

I think you just have to be vigilant with the market, the available cars for sale. Find a model you like and start keeping data, after a while you will recognize a good deal. Then be ready to pull the trigger on a PPI to cover yourself against someone selling a dog. It isn't easy but a lot of people enjoy the chase.

I try to keep a market snapshot of the available 360 Modena Gated Manuals and this is a great tool to see if a car is being priced aggressively. I will bump the thread for you to see.

Start with a spreadsheet.
Cars.com
Ebay
Car and Driver Classifieds
Auto trader
Hemmings Motor News
Craigslist if you have an area nailed down

 

Or do like me...keep good information on the 328's for years, look at lots of 328's and even go so far as drive some, then when you are ready to pull the trigger and make a offer on a 328 and miss out on the car because you bid what you thought was really fair (even high because I wanted the color) and the owner denies the offer (some satisfaction, the owner had it for sale for 5+ months and his final asking price was lower than my offer before the car went off market). You get frustrated, look on F-chat for sale, find a 360 for sale and buy it... BOOM all done in one afternoon. And yes, i had never considered a 360, never drove one, never drove paddles, didn't do a PPI, nothing...just called the guy and bought, picked it up a week later and drove it home, 1,100 GREAT miles (more satisfaction, SUPER CAR).

Get the 360, you will LOVE IT

 

Of course everyone wants the best deal when purchasing...

But you also have to remember that buying at wholesale pricing also means that the dealer must (at least the majority of the time) be prepared to invest more money into the car to make it marketable. (i.e. timing belt / fluid service / etc...)

I have seen a lot of auction cars and there is a reason why the dealer is auctioning the car and not keeping it for their own inventory. Most auction cars have an unknown history and are sold as-is on the auction block (obviously no PPI). If you are ok with these risks, then you can expect a $5K-$10K reduction in price.

I would stick to buying a car that you know the history of. At the end of the day, there will be less surprises.

 

Lots of good advice here. Be prepared to pass on a car you do not feel right about and keep looking. I passed on the first two cars I looked at, based on input I received from two Ferrari mechanics. When you find a car you are interested in, ask the seller if they mind you having a PPI performed on the car. Ferrari's cost money, to buy and maintain, no need to buy something that has a $!0K surprise waiting for you after you buy it.

I looked for over a year, once I got the bug to buy. Found a car on Craig's List. Seller was looking for someone to pass the car onto, who would take care of it like he did. Took two months to get the deal completed. During that time he received multiple offers, some $2K to $3K over what he sold the car to me for.

Kevin and Mike are right, get a 360.

Although it looks like Mike got a good deal without a PPI, I would say get a PPI.

Good luck

 

Of course it is - but it depends on your location on how easy / hard it will be. Do you live in an area with lots of F cars? If so you should be able to easy and get a PPI. If not the best thing to do is buy from a dealer and get a car that has been fully serviced.

 

Wholesale and retail are just words, the definition behind them is subjective, especially on a car that doesn't have a recognized lending book value. I think a more appropriate question would be how do you buy a Ferrari cheaper than regular market. This can be done but like mentioned above, will usually be a car that will require a fair amount of reconditioning to get it to full market value. I have my dealers license and I have bought Ferraris through the auction, they are less the street value cars for sure, but I usually spend enough on them getting them up to date on service that there isn't much of a savings.

 

Are there any other reasons for someone to not have title in hand besides having a lien on it from a financial institution. In which case the buyer will pay the bank directly and recieve a free and clear title with the lien released. Then the bank will pay the seller the difference, if any. Where is the risk there? I am not a dealer, but I buy lots of cars and go through them on a regular basis. Personally I would feel more comfortable if the title was at a bank. You learn something new everyday though. Can you please tell me what risks I have been exposing myself to by buying a car from someone who doesn't have the title in his possession?
Besides that the only other time I can think of when someone does not have the title to their car in hand is if they have lost it. In which case you can get a duplicate pretty easily in most states.

 

If done properly, you are correct, there isn't much risk. If you buy a car that has a lien on it from a bank it is most likely a paperless title. To my knowledge there isn't any banks that actually file the title anymore, paperless title means it is electronically held by DMV and in the records of the bank, no actual title exists. So if you buy a car cash, you don't get the title handed to you the day you buy and pay for the car, not the best, but no alternative in this situation. You are counting on two institutions to not screw up the process of getting the title to you, the bank and certainly the worse of the two, the DMV. It's not uncommon for one of them to mess something up and mail the title to the previous owner as it is assumed that they have to sign off on it, which they don't if you have the proper paperwork that they have signed with a power of attorney, in Ca it's form 262. So in this case you have to trust that the previous owner that now has a legal document in his hands that shows he owns the car you bought, then mails it to you.

Another area of potential risk in this situation is if the seller is in a negative equity position, let's say you buy a car for an agreed $50K, but the seller owes $60K, you have to trust that the seller has the means to pay his portion of the pay off, you must do this at the bank holding the lien and verify that they have verified the sellers form of payment, if the sellers has a check that doesn't clear, the bank won't satisfy the lien and release the title, in this case the car isn't legally yours.

If the seller is in a positive equity position, you must make two cashiers checks, one to the seller and one to the bank, you do the calculation with a 10 day pay off from the bank holding the title. It must be a 10 day so if something gets screwed up in the process your money is the proper amount in the next 0-10 days as interest is calculated daily on traditional car loans. You don't want the bank to hold up the process over a few dollars of interest.

Finally, you must do this at the bank the seller has the loan through, never trust the seller is going to do it on their own, you must see and get proof that the bank is satisfied with the pay off.

As far as the title being lost, this is very common, but never ever take a duplicate form of title as the same as the actual title, a title to a car is exactly the same as a deed to a house, it cannot be substituted. A duplicate form is just so the DMV can produce a new title, and they will, but not before they verify that everything is legal and clear with the parties involved. Someone can very easily pick up or print a duplicate title and fill it out as if they were the owner of the vehicle with the "lost" title and take your money and run. Buying a car from a stranger that has lost their title is okay, but I do it at the DMV and verify that they are actually the legal owner.

I hope this helps.

 

It's not really a big issue...I bought my 360 with a large balance owed. sent payment directly to the finance company, seller verified, took my check with me & car to bank to cash & off I was. Title came a few weeks later. It was more scary for the seller as he was concerned I could cancel the check to the finance company and have possession to the car. Write a contract, payoff the car and enjoy.
HTH

 

It's my suggestion that you first determine how much your maximum initial investment is for purchasing a Ferrari (don't forget to factor in a PPI plus your first year or so of maintenance and Ferrari shenanigans) and find the best Ferrari possible for that money with the options you absolutely must have (coupe, F1, red- whatever they may be). I personally would suggest 2002 and newer due to updates, a coupe to avoid the common and expensive top issues and a manual to avoid the F1 issues. If you find one with over 30K miles that has had wonderful service records and regular driving and care, you will also save money initially. Also keep in mind that modifying your Ferrari after purchase will usually cost a lot more than buying the perfect one with the modifications you want initially.

When it comes to the 360 there are so many variables (such as year, miles, coupe/ spider, F1/ M6, color, service history, physical condition, interior options, modifications such as Challenge parts, wheels etc) that it will be difficult to pinpoint a vehicle that is "under market" unless you truly have a good understanding of the market value of the specific cars that you are interested in.

That said, the PPI is vital to determine the overall condition of the car, clutch wear, status of maintenance etc. Even if you spend $500-700 on a PPI and end up not purchasing the car because of the findings it will be much cheaper than going back and fixing it all down the road- or at least if you do purchase the vehicle you have an idea of how much more it will cost to get it where you want it.

As for where to locate a Ferrari under market, it can be anywhere. I keep tabs on CL, eBay, local dealers, auctions and other places and regularly see decent deals on 360s and 430s. Generally no price is strictly firm and if you know what you are looking at and can explain to the seller your findings before doing a PPI (obvious things like brakes and dirty fluids, interior wear, tires, windscreen chips, value affecting bad modifications etc) to see if they seem to have wiggle room. If you show up serious, know what you are looking at and can confidently make them a fair offer, you may walk away with a good deal.

 

Thanks. This is all good information. I actually thought about the duplicate title scenario you brought up when I was writing my original reply but I did not want to go too far off the subject. That actually is one of the main reasons why I would prefer to deal with a vehicle with a lien holder compare to an individual seller with title in hand. As you said it is not difficult for someone to (unlawfully) make a duplicate. So I would think the risk is greater there. You have a valid point on the possibility of two separate entities screwing up. When I buy a vehicle from an individual I almost always get my bank involved. Let's use your example: I agree on a $50,000.00 price. Regardless of what is owed on the car from seller, my bank will send a check in full to the seller's bank. My understanding is that the seller's bank will send my bank a letter of guarantee to produce a free and clear title to them, either electronically or physically. Whatever the balance owed is that will get worked out between the seller and his bank before we can continue. Once we get the green light I ask my bank to "finance" $10,000.00 on my new car. I deposit $40,000.00 at my bank and they issue a check to the seller's bank. My bank will do all the tax and title work and get the car registered. Once the clear title is recorded at DMV with my name and my bank's name as the lien holder, I go and payoff the balance and I have the cleared title in hand. Now if there is any misrepresentations by the seller or the seller's bank, my bank will have to do the leg work and clear up the mess if any. Luckily I have not had to deal with this issue ever but I know someone who has. At the end it worked out for him....

 

Repectfully responding to vrsurgeon:
Cars like this end up in the auction (Manheim) for a reason!!! Steer clear. You can not do a PPI and that is why it is there. Total RED FLAG. Always, always, always, find out where a dealer acquired the car before purchasing, and if it is an exotic and came from an auction, run the other way.

Ask me how I know? I have a good connection who even lets me you use login to Manheim, and he has revealed a lot of the underhanded methods, etc. I will not buy any car that has been through the auction, unless it is liquidation of lease return fleet, and a few other options... and with inside knowledge, you can find all this out.

 

Thank you for clarification! My presumption was auction was mostly lease clearance. (And next time please feel free to DISrespectfully respond. This is Ferrarichat after all. )

 

Wait a minute. There are TONS of Ferraris that get sold at auctions...and then end up getting sold individually down the line. So what's the difference?

What? Some service that you have to do? Well, if you do the service and you got the car for cheap at an auction, then who cares? You now bought a Ferrari at a lower-than-market value, PLUS you now have recent service history.

 

Lest we derail the thread let's just say it's not that simple. Even with a clean car you could well end up putting 10K in over the first couple of years. If things have been neglected or abused then there is more potential for some really bad things like heat exchanger failure. But, if you think it is the same and you are good with the associated risks by all means feel free to buy all of the auction cars sight unseen.

 

Manheim and other auctions of the like have an arbitration process, so it's not as cut and dry as you describe as far as doing an inspection. It is naive to say that all Ferraris are hands off through an auction, I have purchased good cars through Manheim, not as many as other sources, but enough to do it again if the correct car came along. Just like any other purchase, if you do your diligence, you can get a good car from Manheim.

 

I don't have the time or energy to respond to this in the lengthy manner it would require, but will simply tell you that you are wrong. There are NOT "TONS" of Ferrari's sold at auctions each year (even when you take into account auctions that are open to the public). The overall number is quite small when compared to the total sales privately and at dealerships.

My particular reference is to Manheim Highline Auctions since they are the primary auction company in the United States : Manheim was established in 1945 as a wholesale vehicle auction operation. With 20,000 employees in 121 operating locations around the globe, Manheim is the world’s leading provider of vehicle remarketing services. Manheim registers nearly 7 million used vehicles annually and facilitates transactions representing almost $46 billion in value.
A subsidiary of Atlanta-based Cox Enterprises, Manheim is transforming the wholesale vehicle buying and selling experience through investments in technology and innovative products and services. Manheim markets Simulcast, Simulcast Everywhere, OVE.com, NextGear Capital, Total Resource Auctions, Manheim Frontline, Ready Auto Transport, Manheim Consulting and other respected brands to the remarketing industry in 11 countries, including Australia, Turkey and the United Kingdom.

On the other hand, your naivety of F-car ownership in thinking that a single service of a car with an unknown history creates a "recent service history" that can make up for the previous lack thereof, makes you a prime candidate to end up with money pit of a car that will be even harder to sell down the road when you're trying to unload your mistake....and will probably end up in the auction again to create problems for the next buyer.

Enough said.

 

Agree to disagree...a thorough PPI and test drive at auction???

On the plus side, maybe you can help the OP out and buy him a 360 at auction and pass it along at your cost just out of the kindness of your heart Sounds like its the thing do and with your experience you might be up to the task.