Yet another F1 problem post... | FerrariChat

Yet another F1 problem post...

Discussion in '360/430' started by fahlmanb, Sep 23, 2014.

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  1. fahlmanb

    fahlmanb Karting

    May 14, 2014
    69
    Mount Pleasant, MI
    Full Name:
    Brad Fahlman
    Hello all,

    Over the last few months, I have experienced some problems with my 2000 Modena F1 (ca. 26,500 miles) only when the outside temperature is warm (above 90 degF). A couple of times this summer, after driving a while & doing some shifts at moderate rpms (5000-5500 or so), the car dropped into neutral, the F1 warning light came on, followed by the check engine light. When the car was towed to the Cauley Ferrari dealership about 2 hrs away, they ran a plethora of tests & proclaimed that the system had a clean bill of health. After reading posts here and elsewhere, I swapped out the F1 relay behind the passenger seat for a "heavy duty" one that Juri sells on eBay. The issue has not returned for 1+ months, but the weather has been in the 60's & low 70's since. Today, the weather was in the high 70's (the dash display showed 80 degF), and after about 30 min of driving and shifts around the 5K rpm range, the problem re-appeared. This time, the car didn't drop into neutral (was still able to up/downshift w/o any problem); however the F1 light still flashed & was accompanied by a beeping sound. In addition, whenever the F1 pump attempted to prime, a loud squealing sound was heard from the engine bay - narrowed down to the F1 pump area. I'm assuming that the pump is really on its last legs; however, I'm wondering if just changing the electric motor would potentially fix the problem?? Juri sells these on eBay as well, and it seems to be a VERY simple plug/play installation. Alternatively, the entire pump looks like it would need to be installed by the dealer, since the system would need to be purged, etc... Any thoughts/suggestions??

    Thanks much for your feedback :)

    Brad.
     
  2. 993man

    993man Formula Junior

    Sep 20, 2009
    872
    New Zealand
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Brad
    Sorry to hear you have issues with the F1.
    I can't help, but with all the negative posts on F1, I am about to sell my car!

    Seems it's just a matter of time.
     
  3. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,986
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    An SD2 should be able to tell you whether you need a new pump or not since I believe it can read F1 hydraulic fluid pressure. Juri just introduced a kit to adapt the late F430/599 pump to the 360. The newer pump is much stouter if you need one. Unfortunately quite a bit more expensive than a new 360 pump or motor at around $1200.

    You are correct, changing the pump does require a bleeding of the system and it would be smart to change out the fluid at the same time. Ferrari's last recommendation for changing F1 fluid was 3 years (599). Just the motor can be replaced without introducing air into the system.

    Without an SD2, no way to tell if the pump is your problem. Just guessing at that point.
     
  4. fahlmanb

    fahlmanb Karting

    May 14, 2014
    69
    Mount Pleasant, MI
    Full Name:
    Brad Fahlman
    Although there have been some posts re big-ticket repairs such as actuators, the majority of the problems appear to be pump related. The dealer is confident that it isn't anything major. Although I posted this issue here I guess it's not bad if the original pump lasted 14 yrs & almost 27k miles. If yours is running fine, just enjoy it & be ready to swap out the pump at some point - even if you do a 'preemptive sell', you still might have a non-F1 issue with your new car!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. jpk

    jpk Formula Junior

  6. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 13, 2009
    15,875
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Curt
    So its been to the dealer?

    Overheating pump would be my guess as well.. specifically the motor. But it would be nice to see what those stored codes are. I would probably go with a new motor if it was me.
     
  7. fahlmanb

    fahlmanb Karting

    May 14, 2014
    69
    Mount Pleasant, MI
    Full Name:
    Brad Fahlman
    Thanks, vrsurgeon et al. - it has been to the dealer twice & they didn't find any error codes. The last time, they kept it for 2 days & checked the electrical connections, hydraulic fluid pressure, etc with multiple test drives & couldn't find anything wrong (also didn't charge me a dime!). The F1 system was completely up to spec each time it was taken to the dealer. Btw, when cold, it takes ca. 10 sec to prime the pump when the drivers door is opened, which also appears to be normal. I think it's pointing to an overheated pump motor, which should be a quick/inexpensive fix (here's hoping!) :)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2013
    2,158
    Piedmont Area of NC
    Full Name:
    Alan
  9. Ingenere

    Ingenere F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 11, 2001
    6,336
    On the Limit
    Full Name:
    Dino
  10. fahlmanb

    fahlmanb Karting

    May 14, 2014
    69
    Mount Pleasant, MI
    Full Name:
    Brad Fahlman
    As an update on my F1 situation, I am glad I didn't go for the low-cost route (swapping out the motor alone), and opted instead for replacement of the entire pump. The dealer said they found metal shavings in the fluid, but are confident that the power unit wasn't affected. They are doing extensive flushing & road tests at the moment to remove these metallic pieces & verify that everything is ok. Here's hoping they are able to get this issue taken care of...


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  11. daveyator

    daveyator Formula Junior

    Jun 10, 2014
    292
    Yucaipa, CA
    Full Name:
    Dave B
    I don't know if I'm resurrecting the right thread but my "01 360 spider had been very occasionally dropping to neutral when downshifting from 6th. Upon shifting again it would dutifully reengage and act normal. No other warnings though as in F1 lights or beeps. Then this problem got a little more regular and involved other gears. I took the car to my chosen shop (CNC) and they like in some of the above posts said the car appeared fine with no codes or anything. Clutch was around 90% and the tech said it shifts like a new clutch. Around 500mi later or so which is basically now the car drops to neutral almost every third shift. Seems worse when the car is warm but it does it a lot warm or cold. I even put it in auto and it couldn't get itself past 2nd before going to neutral. I took it back and they are wanting to investigate the pump and the relay. I also remember reading about the accumulator. Any thoughts as to other items to them check as I'd like to avoid the 10 visits to the shop to fix this.
     
  12. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    12,282
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    You need to clarify 90 % - the figure given by the computer is percentage worn ie 90 % means worn out - how old is the clutch ?
     
  13. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,683
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    This and a visual inspection because the setting can be changed.
     
  14. daveyator

    daveyator Formula Junior

    Jun 10, 2014
    292
    Yucaipa, CA
    Full Name:
    Dave B
    Sorry clutch is 10% worn.


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  15. daveyator

    daveyator Formula Junior

    Jun 10, 2014
    292
    Yucaipa, CA
    Full Name:
    Dave B
    The car had the clutch done at 8k per records. 15k on it now. Shop is confident not a clutch issue.


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  16. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2013
    2,158
    Piedmont Area of NC
    Full Name:
    Alan
    Anyone got a link to Juri either here or on eBay?
    Alan
     
  17. daveyator

    daveyator Formula Junior

    Jun 10, 2014
    292
    Yucaipa, CA
    Full Name:
    Dave B
    Well maybe this post will just add to the F1 problem knowledge base because I'm not sure if I'm asking anything or just commenting. To clarify the above posts the clutch on my car is 10% worn 90% remaining. The shop had throughly inspected the F1 system, replaced the F1 relay, bled the system and "relearned the clutch" (not sure what that is). The car still dropped to neutral after replacing the relay but worked find after the clutch relearn (according to them after a 10mi drive). However, about 15 or so miles into my drive home including some stop and go it started doing it again. When it drops to neutral you can shift it back into gear. Once you do that any immediate shifting is fine. However if you drive for a few minutes without shifting it will drop to neutral if you shift. I'm no mechanic but it kinda feels like the system isn't holding pressure. It also "seems" to be worse when the car gets warm. I've read here and told them to check the accumulator and heat shielding but they are thinking F1 pump. If it is the pump they have offered to get me a rebuild for around $800 or a new one for $1200. They also said lots of 360 owners are using 430 pumps but they are over $2000. The car has just over 16k miles on it now. Any comment would be welcome and I'll let you know what happens.
     
  18. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 28, 2007
    2,506
    Somewhere, anywhere
    Full Name:
    Eddie B
    If there isn't enough pressure in the system, it will be because the pump is weak or it's leaking pressure out. It shouldn't be difficult to diagnose either fault.
     
  19. stevecomp

    stevecomp Formula Junior

    Mar 1, 2013
    743
    South Australia
    Full Name:
    Steve
    It is also worth considering a possible alternator problem, gear drop out or none responsive paddle control is possible if the ECU gets anything under 12volts.
     
  20. daveyator

    daveyator Formula Junior

    Jun 10, 2014
    292
    Yucaipa, CA
    Full Name:
    Dave B
    Well after extensive testing and driving the shop replaced the F! pump as they said that was the last thing it could be. Car drove fine but the shop wanted to be double sure and wanted to re bleed the system after driving it. Upon driving it again it dropped from 6th to 5th under light throttle with no input (for me it only had a problem when shifting never dropped out of gear). I've told them voltage, accumulator, sensors, actuators, etc. but they say they did that and all checks out. Again clutch is 10% worn and has been relearned a few times now.
     
  21. bisel

    bisel Formula 3
    BANNED

    Sep 12, 2012
    1,138
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Full Name:
    Steve Bisel
    #21 bisel, Feb 22, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2015
    I had problem and turned out the throw-out bearing (aka, clutch release bearing) was bad. The seal was in poor condition which was causing the bearing to bind on the shaft. It is essential that the bearing move freely on the shaft so that the system can disengage / engage the clutch. If it is binding, then the effort to disengage / engage is too high and the system will throw the car into neutral or not shift at all. The bearing on F-cars has bad reputation for the integrity of the seals. Hill Engineering makes an improved version. Here pictorial view ... item #12 on the illustration ... http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=583

    If you had a 3-pedal car, this symptom would manifest itself as high pedal effort that you can feel when go to disengage the clutch.

    This problem you describe ... if it is the release bearing ... will be worse when the car is warm vs. cold as heat will affect the the function of the release bearing. If you have tried everything else, you might just have to bite the bullet and see if this is the problem.

    The only way you can tell that the bearing is bad is to remove it. Once you get the transmission off, the technician can move the bearing on the shaft and determine if it is good or bad. Of course, that is the lion's share of any clutch replacement ... i.e., removing the transmission. If you go this route, you are looking at a clutch replacement ... as you might as well put in a new clutch if you are taking it down to that level of dis-assembly.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  22. daveyator

    daveyator Formula Junior

    Jun 10, 2014
    292
    Yucaipa, CA
    Full Name:
    Dave B
    After replacing the F1 pump, lots of bleeding and test driving I the car finally threw a code for the gear position sensor. So yes tranny comes out and that seal your talking about will also most likely be replaced as they tell me its usually damaged in the process. They say the clutch is fine and replacing it isn't worth it but from what I read here I'm not sure but there it is.
     
  23. Bob in Texas

    Bob in Texas F1 Rookie

    Apr 23, 2012
    2,665
    Just East of Weird
    Full Name:
    Bob
    Dave,
    I had the clutch position sensor replaced. Had problems with the F1 and as your car did, it finally threw an error code for the sensor after much investigation. It was replaced over a year ago and all is fine.
    The dealer did the work and said the tranny had to come out to replace the sensor. One of the independents said it had to come out too. But one of our well respected posters on this forum said that the sensor can be replaced without removing the tranny. I'm only saying this since it might save you big bucks if confirmed.
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Gear position sensor is an external part and does not need to have the trans removed for replacement.

    Replacing one part after the other isn't the way to go about this. Your problems would not be a big obstacle for someone good at diagnosis. Everyone expects the SD2 to put a big red arrow on a bad part and it just doesn't work that way. Find someone who knows that.
     
  25. 993man

    993man Formula Junior

    Sep 20, 2009
    872
    New Zealand
    Full Name:
    Graham
    I fully agree with ^^^^^

    Been through it, but not with the F1. It can do your head in.
     

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