Pros & Cons of F1 transmission and lessons learned stuff | FerrariChat

Pros & Cons of F1 transmission and lessons learned stuff

Discussion in '360/430' started by whatheheck, Oct 20, 2014.

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  1. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Mar 27, 2006
    4,138
    Seattle, Wa
    Full Name:
    Dan L.
    I thought I'd start this thread and anyone that has an F1 also and are interested in this discussion can chime in and share their opinions, knowledge and / or experience.

    I am not here to argue with anyone or say this is the norm.
    The following are my own opinions, things I've read and learned in about 8 months of ownership of my 2003 360 Spider F1.

    Mileage when I purchased my car was only 10,000 miles. Clutch wear was at 49%. Fairly high clutch wear as the car was driven in stop and go traffic in California.

    I now have 18,000+ miles after 8 months of ownership and clutch now at 80% wear, clutch pops out of gear once in a while and is in need of clutch replacement soon

    F1 Transmission:

    Pros:
    - Shifts faster than humans can. Amazing.
    - Perfect rev match during downshifts.
    - Good for drivers that have bad knees like I do. No clutch pedal to push in and out during gear shifts.

    Cons:
    - Driver not in complete control of clutch engagement.
    - Learning curve takes a little time to master.
    - Driving in stop and go traffic eats up the clutch.
    - Clutch wear is faster if driver does not quickly master proper way to drive F1.
    - Clutch wears faster if driven on an uphill or backing up to an uphill.
    - Clutch replacement costs around $2K more compared to manual transmission due to cost of clutch position sensor replacement(~$1,300.00) and PIS and other required SD3 settings (~$400.00).
    - Clutch will need to be replaced as early as 80% clutch wear reading as transmission will start popping out of gear during high RPM rev shifts.
    - Not all indy shops can do F1 clutch job as F1 requires SD3 or Leonardo computer to set PIS, clutch wear sensor reset and other required TCU settings.

    Again, the above is my own personal experience and I am not saying its the norm or 100% true in all cases so please feel free to add your own thoughts and experience.

    Note also that I had two BMW M6's and both have SMG transmission which is about equivalent of F1 and I did not have similar issues. (Different clutch type (wet vs dry) according to Taz.)

    If I had to do it all over again / my next car - I will probably get a 3 pedal.
    F1 is great but I want complete control of the clutch. And I want to be able to take my car to a reputable indipendent Ferrari mechanic for clutch replacement and save a couple of thousand dollars.

    Dan
     
  2. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2013
    2,158
    Piedmont Area of NC
    Full Name:
    Alan
    I drove a gorgeous Aston Martin DB9 the other day (man what a wonderful exhaust note) but I soon tired of the 6 speed. The last six speed I drove was a JCW MINI Cooper S about 7 years ago. I'm getting lazy in my old age I guess ( I turned 69 last week). :( I love the F1 especially in Sport mode.
    Alan
     
  3. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Mar 27, 2006
    4,138
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    Dan L.
    Belated Happy Birthday Alan!

    I love the F1 too but the design of it could be a lot better.

    Dan
     
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I will take issue with one of your comments, the rest is pretty spot on.

    There are no reputable Ferrari mechanics that make any gestures towards working on late model cars that do not have the appropriate equipment. Lots of shops do, good and bad. The ones that don't do not fall into the good category.
     
  5. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Mar 27, 2006
    4,138
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    #5 whatheheck, Oct 20, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
    I respect your opinion, but allow me to provide more details.

    I discovered two independent Ferrari shops here in Seattle area. Both mechanics used to work for Ferrari dealerships with many many years of experience. Both quit the dealership and opened up their own shops.

    One thinks an investment of $25K for a Leonardo is too much money so he is holding off on purchasing one until the demand for such equipment comes.

    The other one is still saving up for it and trying to justify how many F cars he needs to service before he can justify the costs. He figures by next year he will buy a Leonardo.

    Both have replaced numerous 360 manual transmission.

     
  6. IDriveM5

    IDriveM5 F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2012
    2,675
    Central Ohio
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    Raj
    Dan,
    I'm gonna add the "fear factor" into your "cons" category. When I say this, I mean that the fear of the clutch condition makes many people hesitate to buy a 360. I'm going to be so bold as to say it has probably cost sales. So, I feel that in many cases, people selling their 360's are almost expected to sell it on with a new(ish) clutch to stay competitive in the market and attract buyers.
    Fear also goes up because, my mechanic claims, that the 360 F1 clutch job is the most expensive maintenance job there is on these cars, and that's saying a hell of a lot because maintenance jobs can get pricey on these cars (think belts).

    Like you, I've been driving BMW SMG transmissions for a long, long time (about 12 years now) so I had a lot of experience with this type of transmission before stepping into my Ferrari. I'd probably do it again (buy an F1 car) if I had to. Not just a 360 either - that also goes for an F430 (if I were buying that).

    Personally, I find the 360 F1 gearbox to be pretty easy to live with, but it certainly does warrant a little bit of care and attention. But, IMO, those sport-mode power shifts at the top of the First and Second gear rev ranges are pure automotive bliss. Heaven. I live for those shifts. God I love it when she rolls me one of those gear changes!
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Poor business decisions. Might as well start a repair shop without hand tools.
     
  8. Ice9

    Ice9 Formula Junior

    Jun 22, 2004
    395
    San Francisco, CA
    Full Name:
    Ice9
    Nice post. As a 360 owner I would agree with most of this with a few exceptions:

    To be fair, some of your cons are also true in a 3 pedal car and are more a function of the high power exotic nature of the car (ie these arent as big an issue in a BMW)

    For example:

    Many drivers will eat their clutch in a 3 pedal Ferrari in stop/go traffic. It's just not optimized around that type of driving.

    Any driver who doesn't properly master a 3 pedal tranny, drives backwards up hills, etc will experience higher clutch burn rates. We get a daily dose of this in San Fran.

    In addition, the % clutch wear is more of an estimate as opposed to a precise measurement so actual experience will vary from car to car.
     
  9. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Mar 27, 2006
    4,138
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    Thanks for chiming in.

    Well put and I agree.

     
  10. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    May be so but each of us do things for a reason and I respect other peoples decision on how to live their own life or run their own shop however they please.

     
  11. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Mar 27, 2006
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    Very well said Raj.

    And I agree with everything you said.

    I too love those lightning fast gear shifts at 8,000 RPM.

     
  12. mtmilam

    mtmilam Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2009
    440
    Lafayette, LA
    Full Name:
    Mark Milam
    What is the correct way to "master" the F1 to help prevent Clutch wear or make the Clutch last longer....I have a 3 pedal 430, but a friend of mine is getting a F1 430....What are some tips to make it last longer???
     
  13. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Mar 27, 2006
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    Drive it just like a 3 pedal. Wait till clutch is fully engaged before you mash the gas pedal.

    I also learned blipping the gas pedal seems to engage the clutch quicker.

    Avoid uphills and backing up on an incline.

     
  14. teej

    teej Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2009
    475
    Pacific Palisades
    "avoid uphills" - I hear (read) that a lot.

    Because of stop/starts on uphills I presume, yes?
    Or going uphill in low revs?
    Or when lifting on the throttle but in gear and still in motion going uphill?

    educate me please.
     
  15. 993man

    993man Formula Junior

    Sep 20, 2009
    872
    New Zealand
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    Graham
    This is a good post.
    I agree with everything, and before I bought my car I knew exactly what i was getting into.

    High end, exotic cars have there price. The F1 is ours.

    But hell yeh, at 8K RPM isn't it just awesome with the F1 shifting!
    At that point I don't give a toss about the cost of ownership.

    Fun costs.
     
  16. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    12,282
    South East
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    Jimmie
    Covered many times before but the posts above probably could be clearer :

    The uphill care recommendation applies to stop/starts due to the increased opportunity for wear as the clutch will usually slip for longer and with increased load

    Others may choose to rephrase and/or clarify this further
     
  17. enoyskt

    enoyskt Karting

    May 25, 2014
    50
    Cali
    Full Name:
    S
    Is everyone holding the gas pedal steady while shifting or release gas pedal, shift, then engage gas again?
     
  18. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Mar 27, 2006
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    This has been discussed here many times.........I've done a lot of reading here about F1 transmission before I even bought my car 8 months ago to try and learn about it. But just like anything, you wont really know until you try it yourself. Reading is one thing. Really learning is another thing.

    Going up on an uphill will slip the clutch during initial start of climb just like in a 3 pedal as the F1 TCU will feather the clutch for a smooth take off.

    F1 is actually an amazing design as it greatly mimics a 3 pedal. On an uphill, too low of gas will back up the car, too much gas and will spin the tires. F1 will allow you to take off on an uphill smoothly as it tries to balance the release of clutch and the amount of power to apply to the wheels and at the same time not let the engine die / stall.

    Just think of it as a 3 pedal car. Wait till the clutch fully engages (you will feel it) before you mash the gas pedal.

    On an uphill:
    Too low of gas and your car will back up on its own.
    Too much gas and the clutch will initially slip as it tries for a smooth take off.

    Clutch slippage is really unavoidable so the best approach in my opinion is to just avoid uphill roads.

    You will smell the clutch burning during initial uphill climb.


     
  19. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Mar 27, 2006
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    F1 is an amazing design.

    No need to lift up on the gas pedal. Step on the gas pedal and shift.

    I always shift at high RPM, almost red line as this is where the most torque is present and high RPM is where the F engine loves to sing, and this is where the F1 shines - amazing instant gear shifts at high RPM.

    Dan

     
  20. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Exactly.

    And I dont know how else to describe it using better words.

    One thing I learned reading here is to always think of it as a 3 pedal if you know how to drive a manual transmission.

    That is, you dont apply too much throttle until the clutch fully engages as it will slip the clutch for sure. But there is learning curve on an F1 because the driver is not in full control of the release of the clutch. You cant just dump the clutch.

    So, for flat roads my style is to blip the throttle and let the clutch fully engage, then drive normally and have fun. Shift at high RPM and let the F1 impress you on how fast it can shift gears. And never lift up on the throttle. F1 is all about throttle position. The more throttle applied the faster it shifts. If you lift up on the throttle the gear shift will be slower. Again, all about throttle position.

    There is a youtube video here somewhere on how to properly drive an F1. I will try to find it and post the link here.

    Dan

     
  21. bigsquat

    bigsquat Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2013
    465
    Westchester, NY
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    Troy

    I understand what you are getting at but in reality this is preposterous. Avoid uphill roads?
    Why would you ever want to own a car you are afraid to drive on an uphill road?
    If you smell your clutch burning when starting out on a hill you are doing it wrong. I live in a very hilly area and my driveway has a very steep incline and even my garage has a grade to it. I stalled it the first few times but now have learned to go right up without a problem and with minimal clutch wear for the circumstances. Just learn to drive it properly, do the best you can and enjoy the hell out of it. Worrying about the incline of the road is just crazy.
     
  22. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Mar 27, 2006
    4,138
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    I guess I wasnt very clear. I meant avoid uphill roads if you can if you have not mastered how to drive an F1 car in an uphill.

    I agree, why would anyone want to own a car and be afraid to drive it uphill? Not me either.

    I no longer have any trouble with mine as I learned how to drive it uphill.
    But boy did I smelled my clutch as I learned how to do it properly on an F1 transmission.
    New F1 owners will know what I mean as they try it themselves.

    Our learning ability is also not all the same.
    Some people learn in no time, so people take time to learn something.
    We are all different.

    Its a simple learning curve that we all go through.

     
  23. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Mar 27, 2006
    4,138
    Seattle, Wa
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    Dan L.
    I love to drive as driving relaxes me so I drive my car every chance I get, hence 8,000 miles I put on in 8 months of ownership.

    Early morning on weekends I am already out on the backroads enjoying my car.

    I quickly learned how to drive an F1 and no longer worry about it. Lots of practice.

    Will be getting my clutch replaced soon. I got 3 quotes. 1 from indy and 2 from F dealers.

    Range is $7,100.00 - $9,500.00. And that's not including a new flywheel (if the flywheel cannot be turned and needs replacing).
    A new flywheel is an additional ~$1,500.00.

    As I mentioned on my other post, the smile my car puts on my face every time I drive it is priceless. So I consider everything I spend on my car just like spending money for my wife and son. Money well spent.

    Dan
     
  24. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Mar 27, 2006
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    I found the video which I found very helpful in learning how to drive the 360 F1. Here you go for sharing:

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0mIWy_0hE0]Ferrari F1 Instructional video- Naples Motorsports - YouTube[/ame]

    Dan
     
  25. The Nutsack

    The Nutsack Formula Junior

    Oct 7, 2014
    615
    Chicago
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    Mike
    Dan - your posts are always right up my alley. Keep 'em coming.

    I am two weeks into my 360 ownership (first Fcar) and still getting comfortable with the F1 after a lifetime driving MTs on everything from Hondas to Porsches. I've driven F1s many times, but never on my own car. The hardest part for me is not having direct 3-pedal control of the clutch. It just doesn't feel right yet letting the computer modulate the clutch. I find that whenever I'm actually thinking about it, I get some slip and sometimes burning clutch smell. When I'm just driving instinctively I generally get clean starts. Once I'm going, all shifts are clean and easy.

    And I totally agree about driving and enjoying the car. Considering the money I spend on so many other things, I'm certainly not going to avoid driving my 360 for fear of burning out the clutch a year earlier than normal. In fact, I've put more miles on it in two weeks than the previous owner in two years!

    Being a MT purist for so long, I seriously considered a 3-pedal 360, but felt like it was time to try the F1, and after just a short time I really don't see myself going back.
     

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