Overboosted steering | FerrariChat

Overboosted steering

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by GT Jones, Aug 27, 2015.

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  1. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    I've got a situation and I need the collective brain power and past experiences to solve it. My '78 400 power steering box was rebuilt to stop a slow leak, however, the guy who rebuilt it found, maybe, an extra part. It was a large ball bearing that happened to fit in the threaded tube that accepted the supply line banjo bolt. 'Maybe it's a check valve' he said. Uh, ok, you're the expert. I install the box, install the left front suspension and eventually fire up the car. Nearly instantly the box starts spewing ps fluid. We determine that it certainly was a check valve and not where we wanted to have one! The blockage blew out the seals...
    Ok, strip suspension and remove box to replace seals then reinstall. It seems the ball bearing WAS an extra part that found its way onto his workbench in the months while he was 'waiting for parts'. Fire it up again and no leaks from the box but I find that the steering effort is ridiculously light. My gramma's '73 Cadillac had heavier steering. The wheel practically spins itself.
    There is a slight leak in the hose from the reservoir back to the pump but a dye test suggests it's in the banjo fitting so that will be replaced. I don't see how that would relate to the light steering effort anyway.
    What's happened?
    How do we go back to normal steering effort?
    One theory is that the box is actually fine (now) and that there is a pressure relief valve in the pump that is jammed open due to debris or some reaction to the ball bearing incident and that the system is overboosted. While the car is drivable the concern is that the high system pressure will eventually blow out the seals again. I've never seen a schematic of the box or pump so it's hard to know where to start.
    Has anyone here opened up the ps pump and can verify there's a control valve of some sort in there? The pump and box on this car is the same type found on the 365gtc/4 so I'll post on the vintage forum too.
    Thanks for your opinions.
     
  2. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,493
    North Pole AK
    Interesting. The steering in my 365 is pretty heavy, almost requires two hands at walking speed but feels great on the road. Don't these systems have a spring of some sorts inside that deflects as you turn the wheel and that meters the ps fluid to control the amount of assist?
     
  3. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    7,090
    lexington ky usa
    Full Name:
    mitchell barnes
    The 365 takes more effort than a 400. That was a surprise. I cannot help with the light steering problem. But I have a really good rebuilder if you need. I always had extra parts left over when I put clocks together as a kid��. Post the results, please
     
  4. Bill26

    Bill26 Formula Junior

    Jun 19, 2005
    256
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Bill Murdoch
    Were the fluid lines replaced? There is normally a restrictor in the feed line to the steering box - it looks like crimped metal joiner in the hose.
    If this removed, the steering will be lighter.
    Regards
    WM
     
  5. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    7,090
    lexington ky usa
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    mitchell barnes
    Fluid in intake hose. Very interesting. If the 365 has the same I my open it some. As the steering is too heavy for geezer
     
  6. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    Yes Bill, the fluid lines were replaced! I didn't see the restrictor at all. Maybe it's a standard part from a hydraulic shop?
     
  7. Bill26

    Bill26 Formula Junior

    Jun 19, 2005
    256
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Bill Murdoch
  8. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
    31,694
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    John
    Amazing! Who would ever think that the steering in a 400 could be too light? Personally I loved the stock steering, particularly on the road and at speed. In parking maneuvers, it really required a bit of muscle compared to any other PS car that I have driven but it was still manageable. Of course, the biggest issue was the turning circle the size of a small ocean liner that always required a lot of backing and filling to turn around in small spaces.

    People who would like to lighten up the steering should take note here as apparently it is really possible.

    Good luck with your quest to return your steering to a real man's car! ;)
     
  9. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    7,090
    lexington ky usa
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    mitchell barnes
    A great idea. Total genius😄. I guess I do not understand flow. Pressure would be the same. Vol. seems not to make a difference😳
     
  10. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    Really, it's comically light. Now if I had an automatic I could recline the seat, hang one arm on the sill, drive with my knee and keep a beer in the right hand.
     
  11. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
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    MA
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    John
    Don't forget the suicide (brodie) knob on the steering wheel to make spinning it super easy while you are reclining. Oh, and the boom box style stereo with mega subwoofers! ;)
     
  12. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,605
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
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    Ken Battle
    Bill
    Do you think the restrictor is inside or is the hose just had a calibrated crimp with that clamp in schematic? GT could get one of those high pressure fuel injection line hose clamps and do a test or even "tune" to his liking.
    Ken
     
  13. Bill26

    Bill26 Formula Junior

    Jun 19, 2005
    256
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Bill Murdoch
    Ken,
    I believe there is an internal sleeve that the hose is clamped down on by the external crimp sleeve.
    The bore of the restrictor is selected to produce a pressure drop that gives a nice "feel" to the steering. Very small changes to the orifice size would probably produce big changes to the feel.
    It would seem easier to put the restrictor at the end of the hose (in the fitting) but maybe the turbulence from the orifice would upset the fluid flow in the steering box too much.
    WM
     
  14. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,605
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    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Bill
    Why make it easy for owners to prove they are smarter than Ferrari? It is so typical of making everything harder than it has to be.
    Ken
     
  15. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    It turns out that this is a fairly common issue in the hot rod world and also with off-readers with custom steering boxes etc. As Bill notes, there is a flow restrictor in the hose. The same principle can be found in plenty of GM and ford cars so there's no Ferrari magic here. A PO replaced the supply hose without a restrictor and my guess is that after I had the steering box rebuilt, fluid change, new ball joints, etc to reduce friction and drag the steering is now really light. The danger in having too much flow is that in some situations the pump might not be able to keep up and it will cavitate and squeal. I haven't driven the car hard so I haven't seen any issue other than the crazy light feel.
    A new ferrari hose is $300 but my local hydraulic shop will make up a hose with restrictor for $50 so I'm tempted to try that first to see how i control the effort.
    The hot rod guys often match Mustang steering racks and GM engines so there's actually a market for adjustable flow valves. Mitch, I know you've got a lot going on these days but you might consider fitting a valve like this if you want to lighten up the steering in your car.
    Turn One
    It's a reversible mod so don't worry about the Polizia from Maranello.
     
  16. aidanparte

    aidanparte Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2004
    1,222
    Christian, that adjustable valve looks great as 400s have notoriously heavy steering and wide turning circle.
     
  17. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    In the interest of time I installed an oem house from eurospares. The oem house with flow restrictor does not increase steering effort over a plain hose so my steering is still too light.
     
  18. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
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    mitchell barnes
    about the restrictor missing. did not sound right. I still think you need a builder. or just move on with the too light steering. if the build is safe
     
  19. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
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    Probably the first time in recorded history where the steering of a 400 has been "too light"! ;)
     
  20. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    #20 GT Jones, Oct 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  21. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    #21 GT Jones, Oct 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  22. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    #22 GT Jones, Oct 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  23. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    7,090
    lexington ky usa
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    mitchell barnes
    With this issue. I want to know the results. Please.
     
  24. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    #24 GT Jones, Oct 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    May be possible by adding or subtracting shims on the end of the valve body. Mitch,you should compare this to the check valve in your 365. My car has 4 thin shims. I'll measure the total thickness before reassembly.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  25. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    Installed the valve, new crush washers and filled and bled the ps system. Effort is still far too light. To recap;
    New hoses & fluid
    Disassembled & cleaned check valve
    Rebuilt steering box
    New ball joints
    correct tire pressure and front end alignment

    Steering effort is 1-finger light at all engine speeds. Vey frustrating.
     

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