Unknown part in TH400 oil pan | FerrariChat

Unknown part in TH400 oil pan

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by rovexienus, May 13, 2016.

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  1. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
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    Jun 10, 2010
    564
    Sainte Colombe, France (near Lyon)
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    Jean-Michel Savary
    #1 rovexienus, May 13, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi,
    We found this part laying in the TH400 oil pan of my 400 Automatic. The pan was just opened to change its gasket (which had become porous). No other part of the gearbox was touched.

    We do not know if this is a part of the TH400, we could not find an exact match for it in the documentation (Ferrari manual 157/78 for this gearbox or the general TH400 documentation).

    It is a small item, made of steel:

    Weight 14.6g (0.515 oz)

    Overall length 20.06mm (0.7898")

    Outside Diameter 15.1mm (0.5945")

    It has a small hole on the side 3.4mm (0.134") diameter and approximately 2mm (0.078") deep.

    Inside Diameter 10.7mm (0.421")

    One end has a face with a 5.24mm hole and a trace of rotation which left a mark on the steel.

    The gearbox seems to be operating normally in the garage (low speed) after replacing the gasket and filling the box with hydraulic oil, this mystery part left outside. We have not had a road test done yet.

    Any idea if this part is really from the TH400?

    Thanks.
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  2. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Our member carreaper has a lot of GM tech experience...I can also show a friend of mine this weekend.

    The GM transmissions shift via pressure thru the valve body and that looks like the top plunger of one of the spring loaded valves. There is no way they can "fall out", so I would hazard a guess this "extra one" has been in there since the unit was built???

    It would not work if it was out of place....
     
  3. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

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    Both the governor and vacuum modulator can be serviced externally as I recall(it's been a looong time) perhaps one of those was done (unsuccessfully)and this fell from it's bore.
    I say it belongs in there somewhere.
     
  4. Sunracer

    Sunracer Formula Junior

    May 18, 2005
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    Pierre Beniston
    You might post your info here: C3 Tech/Performance - Corvette Forum

    big forum there someone will likely know right off the bat, and if they don't, well, you'll have a real mystery : )
     
  5. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Oh it definitely does.....I was just questioning if a service to the valve body might have introduced a 'spare"..

    I had three points mounting screws in a distributor once, and it only takes two.
     
  6. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    The vacuum modulator just clamps into the side, I don't think it has a plunger that could "get out"...

    I ran the TH400 in a 1967 Firebird convertible.....the engine could flex the whole car....
     
  7. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
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    Thanks for all the responses, I gather that this item must have been left in the oil pan from the last oil change (before my time as owner). I am trying to join the Corvette forum as suggested by Sunracer to confirm.
     
  8. RBV24961

    RBV24961 Formula Junior

    May 23, 2006
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    Rye, New York
    LOL!
     
  9. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

    Jul 30, 2007
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    Sooo, any resolution ?
     
  10. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
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    Thanks. For the time being, it is almost certain it is not a GM part. There is a possibility it is a spacer in the rear servo, but we have to open and go look in that place. I will post when this is done.
     
  11. Pizzaiolo

    Pizzaiolo Rookie

    May 25, 2016
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    I've recently overhauled a TH400 and I do not recognize this piece. And I did have my gearbox in pieces.
     
  12. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
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    #12 rovexienus, Jun 12, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The same piece was found in the oil pan of another TH400 (from a 400i Auto), please refer to the picture attached. Here are a couple of things I have been told about this item:

    1- It is not a GM part
    2- It is located between the servo and the filter and serves as a spacer, including the spring which can be seen on the picture. In the Ferrari 400 (contrary to other cars using the TH400) the filter is located at a distance from the servo.
    3- This is the surprising information for me: that part (including the spring) is not critical. If it is not there, the gearbox works fine anyway. This has already been confirmed on my car with a long road test.

    A complete refurbishing of my gearbox is planned for September this year, so I have plenty of time to confirm that the gearbox is OK without the part (which now sits on my desk).
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  13. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
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    #13 rovexienus, Jul 1, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    My last post was premature: the "unknown part" has nothing to do with the servo and the filter.

    In fine, it is part of an assembly located at the end of the speedometer gear. The assembly is made up of three parts:

    Pin (p/n 109241) the unknown part itself
    Spring (p/n 109240)
    Ball (p/n 109242)

    I am not 100% clear on the exact role of this assembly, perhaps this is to absorb the vibrations when the speedometer gear rotates with the output shaft of the gearbox.

    This assembly is on auto gearboxes for the 400 and the 400i first series, not on auto gearboxes for the 400 second series or 412 which seem to have a different speedometer gear.

    Obviously not a critical assembly: my gearbox transmitted correct kilometers and speed for more than 10.000km over the last 6 years without this assembly in place.

    When removing the speedometer gear from the box, nothing prevents the three parts from falling down and ending up in the oil pan (if not paying attention to this possibility).

    All parts have been installed and the car road tested without problems.

    The little movie below shows how the unknown part moves inside the speedometer gear. One can see the little ball at the beginning of the movie. The spring is inside the unknown part.

    The picture shows the groove inside the speedometer gear where the little ball circulates.
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  14. Streetsurfer

    Streetsurfer Formula Junior

    Dec 16, 2015
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    Could this be a detent of sorts, giving it a ratchet or bypass effect, that would allow the speedo cable to slip if encountering resistance or extreme force, rather than to break? As opposed to a direct hard connection (via a roll pin) between the speedo and transmission?
     
  15. Streetsurfer

    Streetsurfer Formula Junior

    Dec 16, 2015
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    I feel silly after coming back to check this. The one sentence I must have missed in your final explanation is probably more accurately describing its purpose than my thought on it. I totally missed this part and it makes sense. I suppose the drive gear the speedo gear rides on is wider, and the cable gear has the option to move across it, cushioning the action somewhat at start and stop. Sort of like a bendix moving it's gear in and out. Sorry for my confusion and missing the key point......

    What I'd missed that you had said......

    "I am not 100% clear on the exact role of this assembly, perhaps this is to absorb the vibrations when the speedometer gear rotates with the output shaft of the gearbox."
     
  16. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
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    Thanks. I was expecting some form of recess at the far end of the cavity where the speedometer gear goes, in my mind the unknown part would have rested nicely against that recess and therefore this set-up would have helped in aligning the assembly. But that is not the case, hence I do not know if that explanation of mine is holding :)
     

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