Sodium filled valves | FerrariChat

Sodium filled valves

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by larryg, Dec 26, 2016.

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  1. larryg

    larryg Karting

    Jun 30, 2004
    232
    Louisville, KY
    Full Name:
    Larryg
    I have been doing a bunch of reading in the 308 forum about issues with the sodium filled exhaust valves, but there is hardly any mention of them here. This weekend I was working on putting the 400 engine back together and had one of the exhaust valve heads break off.

    The head has been reassembled for a few weeks and back on the block for a while. I was starting to do the cam timing and heard a ping when installing the last cam but didn't see anything obvious. I got the cam timing dialed in and noticed that there was no valve clearance on the cylinder #6 exhaust valve (valve clearance was set weeks ago when the head was on the bench). I stuck my finger in the exhaust port and the valve head dropped into the cylinder!

    Fortunately it happened long before the engine is ready to run. I'm at a point where it's a setback but not nearly as bad as if it happened on a running engine. Now I'm trying to decide if I need to replace just the one valve, all of the exhaust valves, or all of the valves (even though the intake are not sodium filled). Has anyone had any similar experience with the sodium filled valves breaking?

    I'm not seeing much for options out there but we've had good luck so far from Superformance and they note that their valves are all stainless steel.

    Engine Cylinder Head Parts for Ferrari 250, 275, 330, 365, 400 & 412 - Superformance
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
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    Brian Crall
    I have heard a number of stories just like yours.

    You have 11 more waiting to break, why replace 1?

    A&W or T Rutlands has valves.
     
  3. larryg

    larryg Karting

    Jun 30, 2004
    232
    Louisville, KY
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    Larryg
    That's my thought, I'm really at the point of deciding if I am doing 12 or 24.
     
  4. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,143
    Houston, Texas
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    Bubba
    I don't believe the intakes are hollow??

    (Carrying the debate over, from the 308 Section.)

    Brian?
    Note Brian's reply only refers to "11 more"....
     
  5. Daryl

    Daryl Formula 3

    Nov 10, 2003
    1,030
    Barrington Hills, IL
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    Daryl Adams
    #5 Daryl, Dec 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I can attest that sodium filled valves are a ticking bomb. They led to my Dino engine and gearbox rebuild and left me with this rather expensive desk ornament. (That's the valve head embedded in the piston top.) The Dino now has nice new stainless valves.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. larryg

    larryg Karting

    Jun 30, 2004
    232
    Louisville, KY
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    Larryg
    Should only be the exhaust valves that have the sodium. It's more of another "while you're at it" that I'm considering the intake valves.
     
  7. larryg

    larryg Karting

    Jun 30, 2004
    232
    Louisville, KY
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    Larryg
    No doubt I am quite fortunate that this happened with the engine at a complete standstill and still on the stand.
     
  8. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

    Mar 17, 2006
    4,675
    Seattle, WA
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    Brian White
    Interesting. While I always head of the sodium filled valve issues on the V8s until the QV, I was not aware that they existed on the V12s.
     
  9. Il Tifoso

    Il Tifoso Formula 3
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    Oct 22, 2013
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    Ruben
    +1, I was totally unaware that this was even a "thing" with the V12s. The OP mentions sodium valves on a 400... were 365s and 412s also affected by this?

    Cheers,

    Ruben
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    All the way back. The second Ferrari I ever worked on was a Lusso with a broken valve.
     
  11. Argento839

    Argento839 F1 Veteran

    Oct 21, 2005
    9,103
    That pic says it all. Classic break right at the weld point..
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Lots of Ferrari pistons look just like it. The heads are always a treat to see too.
     
  13. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
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    Tim Keseluk
  14. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
    North Pole AK
    To the OP. Just wondering what work you were doing with the heads off? Did you do any work on the heads such as new valve guides, seals, or valve springs?
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Ferrari valve springs are very high quality and it is rare when they need replacement.
     
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  16. larryg

    larryg Karting

    Jun 30, 2004
    232
    Louisville, KY
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    Larryg
    The cam chain adjuster was almost all the way in and it was still rattling enough to be annoying. That and the fact that oil was leaking from just about every possible place, led us to decide to do a motor-out refresh. Nothing concours quality, but enough to keep it a decent driver for years to come. This is my father's toy and at some point I will inherit it and enjoy it with my kids.

    As far as the heads go, I just did a basic cleanup, lapped in the valves, fresh valve stem seals, and replaced most of the valve shims to get the clearances back into spec. Had I known about the potential problems with the sodium filled exhaust valves, I would have replaced them when I had it apart.
     
  17. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
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    my 1970 Boss 302 has sodium valves, should I be worried about reliability in it? I just had engine rebuilt.
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    I would talk to the vintage Ford guys. Sodium valves per se are not a problem. Used in tons of cars and trucks. Most go to a bigger valve stem to have enough strength with a hollow stem. Mercedes had 10 and 11 mm stems to make it work. Ferrari didn't want to sacrifice the breathing or have the weight penalty with a great big stem so they had 8mm. That's not a very big stem for that size a valve to start with then they made it hollow and 2 pieces welded together. Was not a great idea. Modern metallurgy makes them unnecessary in all but serious industrial applications.
     
  19. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
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    Interesting, so the spring pressures remain good for all of those years?
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Sitting under normal tension has not been shown to be a problem. Some engine builders will relax them when not in use but tests have shown it isn't required. In some applications a very high lift is an exception. Real wear is while in use and the heat involved. Many race motors put a lot of oil on the springs to cool them. That is all in race motors though. Ferraris use very good springs. That combined with the fact that few have much lift, most start with far more spring than is needed and you end up with a situation where needed replacement is very rare. I have rebuilt Ferrari motors where every part but the big castings, crank and valve springs were all we kept. Some of the 250 and 275 motors because of their design and with the factory high lift cams for all intents and purposes put their valve springs in spring bind by most standards. Those motors were tough on springs, it was a design issue though, not really a spring issue.
     
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  21. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    Dec 23, 2007
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    Thanks for the info. Lots of little secrets to these cars, always appreciate hearing from the experienced guys.
     
  22. Il Tifoso

    Il Tifoso Formula 3
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    Oct 22, 2013
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    +1, many thanks especially to Brian (Rifledriver) for your extreme generosity when it comes to sharing your seemingly endless knowledge of everything Ferrari, both new and old!

    Cheers!

    Ruben
     
  23. Al Campbell

    Al Campbell Formula Junior
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 22, 2013
    571
    Australia
    + another one. :)

    These threads are great & provide a lot of good info.

    Where is the best place to source replacement valves from? So we are not putting NOS Sodium filled valves back in.
    Maybe we could do a bulk buy to get cheaper prices? I would be in for 36 valves to suit a 400i.

    Cheers,
    Al
     
  24. steve meltzer

    steve meltzer Formula 3

    Sep 18, 2004
    1,036
    with Enzo 8995
    Brian, with the cylinder head on the car, can you tell (or better stated, can I tell) if the valves are sodium filled or not? thanx steve meltzer
     
  25. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    No. Another reason knowing the history is important.
     

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