400 Fuel Pumps | FerrariChat

400 Fuel Pumps

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by wda24729, Mar 15, 2017.

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  1. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Good morning - Just went to try and move my 400 and found a lack of fuel causing an issue. I can hear the pump priming and cutting out but no pressure at the carbs however it does only sound like one pump running, when I notice there are two pumps

    Does anyone know how this system of two pumps works or have any ideas before I purchase the two?

    Car has been sitting for a while if that might be an issue.
     
  2. MrL

    MrL Rookie

    May 26, 2013
    42
    England, UK
  3. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Thats what I thought! I managed to suck fuel through so there's enough in the tanks but nothing flowing under engine cranking.
     
  4. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    4,188
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day,
    Before I would replace the pumps, I would start with the basics and remove and examine the fuel filter and the hoses. It is possible you have a plugged filter or perhaps a collapsed/worn fuel line.
    Cheers,
    Sam
     
  5. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    Dont know the 400 system but looking at the eurospares diagram it appears there are 2 pumps supplying the fuel to the carbs via a single pipe and a similar return line. I would assume that the outlet of each pump has a non return valve, so either the non return valve is stuck shut. Other option is that the fuel is going back through the other pump- ie 1 pump is running and other is not. No pressure makes me think non return valves if fitted.
    Eurospares pt list is in Italian so u need to tranlation.
    Hold off buying pumps until you break the pipes and run pump outlet into a container from each pump
     
  6. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    4,188
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Mike,

    This is a similar arrangement to the carbed Boxers that also have two pumps, and there are no dedicated non-return valves. Effectively the pumps themselves are the non return valves :)

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  7. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Many thanks for the replies. I have a bit of a logistical nightmare now getting from her place of rest to my ramps but I will have a check of the fuel filter tonight.

    I can however get fuel up to the carbs by sucking, which would suggest little in the way of resistance / blockages??
     
  8. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    If u can suck it up then no blockage -there must be something between the supply and return lines so as you develope pressure from the pumps, otherwise it would just go around in a circle
     
  9. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Managed to suck from the return line aswell but just stops flowing once the suction is off, pump still on. I do notice the pumps cut out on a relay a few seconds after ignition is first switched on....normal I guess?

    Thanks
     
  10. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    As the tanks are lower than the engine you would expect that-can you disconnect the fuel supply line in the engine room and try pumping into a container- that will prove the supply line, when doing it your putting finger over the end to see if it develops pressure - if no pressure we are back to the pumps-either no discharge pressure or 1 pump is pumping through the other.
    We can then disconnect the wire off 1 pump and block off the outlet pipe, this will test 1 pump, them do the same on the other to compare both pump outputs
     
  11. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Hi Mike - I think your question actually answers it! Ive been sucking at the fuel supply line in the engine bay, also at the return pipe in the engine bay. As soon as I release the suction the fuel stops despite the pumps still on (well ignition on anyway). I will have to wait until I get her up on the ramps before I can test the pumps.

    I did look for a plug similar to that on my 308 which stops the pumps running when the engine isn't running but couldn't see anything. (You can pull the plug to allow the pumps to run continuously).
     
  12. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    If you get it on a ramp you should be able to use a 4 amp battery charger as a power supply direct on the pump terminal ( it should be enough) if you get fuel and it starts then it is electrical, if no output of fuel, do on both and see if 1 buggered, donr see both pumps failing but can see fuel going back through 1 pump
     
  13. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    I'm not sure if the dual fuel pump solution was designed to offer a limp-home mode in case one of the pumps died or maybe a pump with sufficient flow was not readily on the market. I have been using a single Carter P4070 pump and it provides plenty of volume at the correct low psi for your carbs.
    Take a good look at your fuel lines too and see if it isn't time for a change.
     
  14. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Out of interest, what PSI are you using as I was also looking at better quality pumps.

    The flow pipe to the engine actually looks quite new in comparison to others on the car and I am getting plenty of flow when sucking!

    Mike - Will give you method a try when on the ramps. Thanks
     
  15. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    Brave man having a 400 as i believe parts are rare and expensive - any pump might do if it pumps enough fuel
    Have a look on Superperformance site, they have 3 types of fuel pumps, 75-120- 1100 quid plus a repair kit and a load of other fuel bits re a 400
     
  16. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Yes I see lots of choices, but Im guessing carbs require a lower PSI.

    I think we are brave to have any F-car....just had to have a new gearbox in the 348, but you've got to have a hobby I guess :(
     
  17. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    Nice to able to afford a new g/box. I am living on tesco bears to run a 430
     
  18. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
    669
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    The Carter pump is somewhere around 7psi but Weber experts suggest 2.5-3 is better. I bought a pressure regulator but haven't installed it yet because it runs well as-is.
     
  19. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,500
    North Pole AK
    It would be interesting to see how much pressure is actually at the carbs. I'm sure quite a bit of fuel pressure is bled off from the return line but I'm not sure exactly how much.
     
  20. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 12, 2009
    3,215
    Saratoga Springs NY
    Full Name:
    Seth
    Mike, I had to go to google to discover wot the 'ell you're talking about.

    Barny Chocolate Kids Sponge Bear 5 Pack 150G
    Suitable for vegetarians £1.69
    Soft sponge cake with chocolate filling. Sponge bears with a hidden chocolate centre

    Discover the world of Barny He's a playful bear with a cheeky chocolate centre.
    We bake them with quality ingredients such as: flour, eggs, milk, chocolate

    An exciting bear-shaped sponge snack with a delicious chocolate filling, providing a little discovery in every bite. Carefully baked with ingredients including wheat, flour, milk, chocolate and eggs. Barny comes in a pack of 5 individually wrapped portions
    No artificial colours or preservatives added. Suitable for vegetarians.

    [this last was very reassuring]
     
  21. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    Good try, we have tesco supermarket and i use their baked beans- 3 stars for effort mind you.
     
  22. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Just to interrupt :)

    Its fuel pumps, both of them for some strange reason. One wasn't working at all and the other which I could hear working didn't have the 'oomph' to get the fuel up to the engine bay.

    I think Im going to replace with just a single decent Facet pump. I don't see the reason for the two pumps..unless anyone knows different?
     
  23. 365GT4 2+2

    365GT4 2+2 Karting

    Jan 1, 2016
    55
    Essex, England
    Full Name:
    Justin R


    I think you may find a single Facet will not flow enough fuel for high speeds and loads, instantaneously our cars may need 4 mpg (U.K.) ? Insufficient flow could cause starvation, weak mixture, detonation, boom !


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  24. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Fair point...I'll get the two then!
     
  25. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    Nice easy fix then
    How much are the pumps each ? Assuming you have 2 scrap pumps be sure to clean out the pipes in case the pump has been machining itself to bits and put the crap in the system
    If you need the rubber mounts with the threaded ends , have a look at RS Componients web site as very cheap
     

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