Recently Acquired 400i GT: Questions about random hesitation | FerrariChat

Recently Acquired 400i GT: Questions about random hesitation

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Cjkurim70, Jun 4, 2017.

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  1. Cjkurim70

    Cjkurim70 Rookie

    Mar 7, 2017
    13
    Illinois
    Great to join the conversation after recently acquiring a silver 1980 400i GT. I am happy to say it came with a nice history of receipts and upgrades including stainless exhaust, rebuilt transmission, rebuilt fuel injection system and MSD unit. It has only been driven a few miles over the last several years, so I have had painstaking task of getting out and driving it regularly. It has been running great (it cold starts okay but has challenges starting warm) but has started to hesitate randomly during normal drives. It will suddenly have smooth even loss of power that can happen at any rpm and seems to last 10-60 seconds. It will then revert back to normal operation and drives fine. I have read other threads on this discussing the rubber ring in the distributor that can lead to this but wanted revisit the conversation. The MSD is a model 6A and the coil looks like it has been there a while. The cap, plug wires and rotor are all new. Thoughts? Thanks!
     
  2. roger21

    roger21 Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2015
    262
    France
    Full Name:
    Stéphane
    Hello!
    Won't be abble to help with your technical issue but
    welcome and congratulations for your new toy!
     
  3. Stefan Elshout

    Stefan Elshout Karting

    Dec 1, 2011
    166
    Holland
    Is it the correct MSD coil or is it still the original Marelli coil?
    The distributor drive and advance mechanism is indeed something to check / repair.
    Do you have any possibility to check the functionality of the VR-sensor inside the distributor (when it starts hesitating).
    Maybe someone knows if there is a shared relay for both fuel pumps? If that is the case it would be something I would check as well in your case.
     
  4. Cjkurim70

    Cjkurim70 Rookie

    Mar 7, 2017
    13
    Illinois
    Thank you and looks like the coil is a blue bosch that was fitted when the MSD was installed. Could be older than 10 years. I was thinking the same on the distributor. Would pulling the distributor mean re setting the timing? A fuel relay would make sense as well and something I am going to put on my list.
     
  5. Cjkurim70

    Cjkurim70 Rookie

    Mar 7, 2017
    13
    Illinois
    Thank you and love everything about these cars. So much character and a pleasure to drive at speed. Are you able to find high quality fuel without ethanol in your area?
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,123
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    This is a result of losing a complete bank for either fuel or spark -- you'll have to determine which (spark or fuel) and which bank to know which system to fix.

    This o-ring in the K-Jet fuel distributor can cause the warm shutoff fuel pressure to wrongly fall to zero immediately, which would make warm restarting difficult, but it can't cause your "smooth even loss of power" problem. However, a bad accumulator or a bad check valve on the fuel pumps can also cause the warm shutoff fuel pressure to fall to zero. With that said, the CIS injected 12 cyls will usually start warm on one bank even if the other bank has a fuel pressure problem -- so that almost indicates you have a problem on both banks. I'd suggest you have a Bosch CIS shop (which includes MB and Volvo options) measure the warm shutoff fuel pressure on both banks to first confirm/deny if that is the cause of the trouble. If so, then it becomes an issue of checking each of those three possible causes.

    You don't indicate your location -- is your 400i an unmodified euro version, a euro version modified to be US legal, a euro version previously modified to be US legal but now unmodified, etc.?
     
  7. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
    14,151
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    Single distributor and one coil on an injected 400 so losing a bank is fuel related only and sounds like thats probably whats happening as you suggested.
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,123
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Yes, outwardly that's true, but they went to the crazy double-ended, two-level distributor rotor so it's still possible to lose just one bank due to ignition on a 400i -- for example, if one end of the rotor breaks off ;). Although I would agree with you that (since the problem comes and goes, and doesn't have any non-smooth symptom) it is more likely a fuel problem.
     
  9. capcgn

    capcgn Karting

    Oct 7, 2006
    132
    Germany
    most time it is a burned relay box in the passenger food weell. Check the white contact housings for yellow or brown stains, there is then your problem
     
  10. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
    31,680
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    I was going to suggest this as well. Check the relays for the fuel injection. There are a total of three, one for each side and one for something else to do with the FI. It is not uncommon for a bad connection to intermittently shut off one bank of cylinders, resulting in a loss of power. The car will still drive but will be somewhat rough and obviously down on power.
     
  11. Cjkurim70

    Cjkurim70 Rookie

    Mar 7, 2017
    13
    Illinois
    Great insights and over the last week the car will only now turn over. Looks like one of the fuel pumps gave up the ghost and was likely in the process of failing all along. I went into the foot well to confirm it wasn't the fuel pump relays but both are new and making contact. Two questions: There are two more adjacent to those, one of which is a smaller 30amp and the other a tall black one. Could those be be making it so only one pump is operating? The other would be which pump would I need to buy and from whom? It is a 1980 400i
     
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,123
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    For the pump, do a search on "Bosch 69523 69532" for prior threads. Your 400i would've originally come with 69523, but may have been modified to use 69532 (when 69523 wasn't available for a few years) -- you'll just have look to see which you have.

    Only the fuel pump relays (or the local connections) can disable one pump. There is another relay involved, but that one would disable both pumps. But usually a V12 K/KE-Jet will fire up and try to run on one bank (although at low RPM) -- are you saying it's now completely dead during starter motor cranking and never even "coughs"?

    Have you tried unplugging the safety switch and turning the key "on" to listen for the fuel pump(s) running?
     
  13. Temerian

    Temerian Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 17, 2014
    438
    Manhattan
    Full Name:
    Rick Temerian
    Also check the fuses for the fuel pumps. I had one fuse fall out so the engine was running only on one bank. I cleaned and tightened up the prongs and haven't had the problem since.
     

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