Misfires | FerrariChat

Misfires

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by tajaro, Jul 23, 2012.

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  1. tajaro

    tajaro Formula Junior

    Mar 22, 2009
    685
    Gulfport Florida
    Full Name:
    Erik V
    I keep having PO30x codes. Found two bad injectors and replaced them but two others started up. Had them deep cleaned (@$100 each!) and they're fine for 250 miles now. But one of the cylinders with the new injectors is acting again. Car runs great and it's hardly noticable but of course it's bad.

    I only ran the car every month for the last year as I was gone and only for about 400 miles all year. I used Stabil fuel treatment but wonder if the combination of low miles and old gas is fouling injectors.

    Car does smoke blue for 20 seconds on cold start- I'm sure I'm a candidate for new guides someday but the car only has 11k so I'd hope to get another 10k before that major work. Could the guide problem cause injectors to foul?

    I know I need to get it in to an expert and I will. Ideas?
     
  2. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,386
    Blue smoke is oil...so it could be that the oil burning is fouling your plugs...perhaps the problem are not the injectors but the spark plugs getting fouled...
     
  3. tajaro

    tajaro Formula Junior

    Mar 22, 2009
    685
    Gulfport Florida
    Full Name:
    Erik V
    Good thought. But I rationalized that away as the plugs were just changed and the codes did clear when the injectors were changed/cleaned for 3 of 4 cylinders. Additionally the blue puff goes away completely after 5-20 seconds and is gone at warm restart... So I concluded its probably not plugs.

    Could it be recognizing the above info?
     
  4. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,386
    These misfires at idle can be very difficult to diagnose...I recall there was thread covering the same issue.

    Make you sure check everything before you rule anything out...

    Trying switching parts from one bank to another before buying anything.

    Test everything, ECU, Coil Pack, Plug Wires, Spark Plug

    Its either Spark or Fuel, or both...you need to narrow it down. Check your grounds as well...

    If it is in fact fuel delivery, trying switching the injector and see if the problem "follows" the bad injector.
     
  5. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    Hindsight now, but it's not a good idea to clean only a couple injectors and leave the rest. They all got fouled together, and they all should be cleaned together. Otherwise, you're liable to have some cylinders running richer or leaner than others, and that's not good for any engine.

    If I were you, I'd pull the rest of them and have them cleaned, but find yourself another injector cleaner - $100 apiece is way too much even by Ferrari standards!

    You may have one or more spark plug leads going bad too - so as a temporary troubleshooting measure you could pick up a couple good quality leads for another car with deep plug wells and a coilpack system, ie perhaps Ford EDIS leads would work.

    The Ferrari plug leads can't be easily removed from their covers, so I'd just "carefully" disconnect them on both ends, then route the new lead(s) from the coilpack to the suspected cylinders and hold them in place temporarily with plastic ty-raps. Sounds mickey mouse, but it's only a test, not a long term solution.

    If you find you have an ignition problem with one lead, your choices are to replace all six leads on one side, or I have a pretty cool COP (Coil on Plug) conversion that several 550 owners are running which might be interesting. Send me a PM for details.
     
  6. fou

    fou Formula 3

    Feb 1, 2007
    2,232
    Central Virginia
    Full Name:
    Call me the breeze
    What does you code mean? random misfire? If so, I might have a clue for you to check. As you well know, there are many reasons for a misfire code, but there are a couple easy known failures in these cars you might want to check. When I was misfiring in my 575 it was the intake gaskets and that is one well known weak spots to check. I could even hear it after someone clued me in.
     
  7. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2006
    4,185
    Plantation, Florida
    Full Name:
    Alfredo
    I believe the computer is sensing one or more units misfiring, not necessarily the injector or the plug malfunctioning.
    If your car smokes blue at start-up, it is definitely oil and the plugs would be the first thing I would check, as excessive oil would produce carbon deposits on the plugs.
    If smoke is only present at cold start-up in the morning, it means the oil seepage is minimum, and is only happening during the night and / or during the time the car is not in use for an extended period of time with a cold engine.
    When the engine is warm there is not enough seepage to be noticeable.
     
  8. tajaro

    tajaro Formula Junior

    Mar 22, 2009
    685
    Gulfport Florida
    Full Name:
    Erik V
    Thanks everyone for your ideas- I'll check plugs again. They were recently changed as PM since they're 12 years old now and even though I just passed 12k miles I figured it was due- I was thinking it was injectors since the codes followed the suspect injectors around as I moved them from 2 and 3 cyclinders to 1 and 4. But now I've got codes on 3 (with a brand new injector) and 9 (never shown before) so I have to start over. I was convinced I've gotten some rotten fuel and the lack of regular driving this year (and even with Stabil generously added) I've been getting issues there but now it's time for an expert.

    I'll ley you know-
     
  9. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2006
    4,185
    Plantation, Florida
    Full Name:
    Alfredo
    You should not need to replace the injectors: just have them serviced and tested by a shop equipped with the proper testing equipment.
     
  10. tajaro

    tajaro Formula Junior

    Mar 22, 2009
    685
    Gulfport Florida
    Full Name:
    Erik V
    #10 tajaro, Oct 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well- Brian Crall to the rescue. After many hours of work and a lot of cleaning deteriorated rubber parts from my entire fuel system (including handfulls from the fuel tank) and a clean/rebuild on all the original injectors... The car is back as strong and smooth as ever.

    Amazing- this has obviously been going on for a while... yet it only was detectable in the last 100 miles. Look at these pictures! The fuel filters (changed <700 miles ago) and the 2 quart ziplock bag full of junk from the tank...

    PS: I have two new injectors (<50 miles) that have been cleaned/rebuilt just in case for sale for $400/pair.
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  11. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,367
    socal
    Did the junk get past the filter into the injectors?
     
  12. tajaro

    tajaro Formula Junior

    Mar 22, 2009
    685
    Gulfport Florida
    Full Name:
    Erik V
    Yes- Brian said small particles were in the injector screens and that's why misfires occured on #3 and then #4... He flushed all the lines and blew everything clean- hence a dozen hours invested. The fuel pump gaskets were completely gone- he said one of teh pumps was basically dangling in place.
     
  13. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,367
    socal
    Thanks,

    IMO this will happen again due to the cr@p plastics and cr@p gas we have today. It may take years for you to get to this point again. I wonder if Brian gave you any time frame for this to happen again. Anyway, looks like we need to , at least, find better filters. Junk really should not have got to the injectors but should have plugged the filter and killed the fuel to all the injectors.
     
  14. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
    Considering the millions of rubber pieces in there, even a 99.999% effective filter would not be able to prevent a few pieces making it to the injectors. Still, I am interested in what brand of filters were on the car?

    Do you have a habit of having your tank full, or relatively empty? Based on cases I have seen myself I have the feeling that this happens more with cars that sit a lot, but especially so if they sit with relatively empty tanks.

    Seeing this definitely makes me want to check and replace my fuel pump rubbers asap.
     
  15. tajaro

    tajaro Formula Junior

    Mar 22, 2009
    685
    Gulfport Florida
    Full Name:
    Erik V
    Bosch filters. Brian says when the big rubber bits in the fuel pump assemblies go they always find there way to the injectors and the filters only stop so much. Says he's never seen a couple as bad as mine though...

    Oh well... Great now though.
     
  16. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    What's scary is that some injectors could be blocked more than others. This could lead to a lean condition in those cylinders. Not good......

    I've looked for the micron & efficiency ratings for the OEM Bosch filters without much success. One reference from Bosch Motorsport says they're rated to filter down to 5 microns, but they don't give an efficiency rating. Baldwin's crossover to the Bosch filter are rated 12 microns without an efficiency rating. Canton's EFI rated filters go down to 1 microns, again without an efficiency rating: https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/product/25-908/25-908----CM--15-GM-EFI-INLINE-FUEL-FILTER-SHORT-16MM/

    So just from the micron rating, it would appear the OEM Bosch filters are pretty good. We probably just need to get in the habit of changing them more often (like every major?) and perhaps cutting them up to see what they've caught. If they're full of rubber, then it's time to pull the fuel pumps and inspect the rubber cushions, etc.

    Erik, do you have any idea when your filters were last changed?
     
  17. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
  18. tajaro

    tajaro Formula Junior

    Mar 22, 2009
    685
    Gulfport Florida
    Full Name:
    Erik V
    I'm almost positive mine were changed June 2011 but have to get back to my records to confirm. Due to moving and commuting from then until now the car only did about 3-400 miles, never went more than 6 weeks without running (I know...) and did have Stabil in the Sunoco Premium fuel.
     
  19. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    Erik, did you find any info about when those filters were last changed? It would seem unlikely that all that fuel system degradation occurred within the last year or so, but perhaps the guy who changed the filters last time didn't think to cut them open and inspect them as Brian did.
     
  20. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
    BANNED Professional Ferrari Technician

    Apr 26, 2006
    3,664
    New England
    Full Name:
    David Feinberg
    Doing this repair on my 550 this winter and expect to see similar results, although (currently) there are no driveability issues....
     
  21. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

    May 11, 2009
    809
    Central Virginia
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Carl, based on the amount of rubber breakdown I saw in mine at 12 years, I surmised that if I replaced the gaskets every 10 years I would probably be okay. This doesn't allow for changes in fuel that may or may not occur during that time (? increase in ethanol in the fuels)

    Regards,
    Pete
     
  22. Andrew D.

    Andrew D. F1 Rookie

    Jul 6, 2008
    3,979
    Goodwood Ontario
    Full Name:
    Andrew D.
    Ethanol tends to seperate if the car sits a lot and causes rubber degredation. But if the same injector is fouling,I would perhaps do a leak down.?oil getting past valve guides when the car sits?
     

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