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Upgraded fans

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Eli355, Nov 17, 2014.

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  1. Eli355

    Eli355 Formula Junior

    Oct 12, 2010
    678
    Long Island, NY
    Full Name:
    Eli
    I came across a company called V12s ( no affiliation) that sells upgraded fan blades or fans for v 12 cars including 550s and 575s. Does anyone have any experience with these? Thoughts?
     
  2. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    I have it on good authority that those are Maradyne fans that they use, and there's nothing wrong with them, but if you compare specs, the SPAL fans outperform them.

    For the 550, Ferrari used SPAL's absolute highest output 16" fan, which SPAL themselves state categorically is only for intermittent racing use. Unfortunately, Ferrari then mounted these fans in a poorly designed shroud that doesn't begin to cover the radiator(s)

    Then for the 575 they apparently went to China and sourced a fan that may put out a little more air than the 550 fans, and mounted them on a much better designed, full coverage shroud, and the package performs much better than the 550's (no reports of 575's overheating).

    V12s apparently make a nice shroud, and overall, the fans and shroud are a good "package".

    I have no personal experience with V12s, this is only what was relayed to me by a trusted pro.
     
  3. henryr

    henryr Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 10, 2003
    21,653
    Atlanta
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    Juan Sánchez Villa-L
    will the 575 fan shroud setup fit on a 550 ?
     
  4. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    Yes, fans & shrouds are interchangeable between the two models :) I have both in my shop and have tested them.

    The 575 shroud isn't quite as rigid as the 550, probably because the 550 shroud is a basic rectangle, while the 575 has a few complex bends in it. IIRC, Ferrari issued a TSB for it that basically put some sort of vibration dampening tape on it to reduce the transmitted vibrations.
     
  5. skl63

    skl63 Karting

    Dec 13, 2007
    227
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Scott
    Will the 575 shroud & fan fit a 456?
     
  6. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    Probably not; the 456 radiator uses a different configuration than the 550/575 for its passes, and has a lower tank, and the nozzle for this needs more clearance than the 550/575 shrouds allow.
     
  7. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
    If no reports of overheating what is the difference 550 vs 575? Does 575 have a bigger radiator? Putting out more HP means more heat so the 575 should make more and need to reject more. How does it do it?

    If the 550 has subclinical overheat issues that could assist in cavitation damage. I don't know if there are ever enough 550's apart to see cavitation and certainly we don't hear of leaking liners like diesel motors. Is it possible that 550's with overheat issues are also having cavitation issues no one knows about? On the flip side, you might see 550's in milder climates having no cavitation issues. It is also possible that only cars with some kind of cooling defect are seeing overheating with cavitation?
     
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,986
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    FBB- Same radiator, different water pump impeller blade, different WP pulley, much better shroud so more air is pulled when moving slowly or stationary. Like John said, the shroud probably makes the biggest difference, but everything except the radiator was improved.
     
  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    Taz,

    If true those are very minor improvement s in the single digit percentages which would jive with my initial premise that 550s do not have overheat problems and the issues may be more specific cars under specific conditions.
     
  10. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    FBB- Part of it is probably also cooling systems that did not have regular coolant changes early in their life because there is no factory recommended coolant change. We know better now.

    Many small changes can add up to a big improvement, though.
     
  11. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
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    Agreed but any decent wrench would formulate their own maintenance schedule based on experience. As an example adding injector removal service to majors pays dividends and that is not part of any service I have ever seen.
     
  12. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    Of the 3 late model V12 owners here in Houston that frequent this forum regularly, we all have had overheating issues with our cars. That's Ron (RMfurzeland) with his 550, Mark (Mcypert) with his 456, and me with my 550. As you'll recall, Ron's engine had some pretty spectacular cavitation damage (pinholes) in 1 or 2 of his liners, and several more weren't far behind, which prompted him to replace them all last year. Mark's car hasn't been apart yet, and he currently seems to have his overheating under control with auxiliary fans and the RO water remedy. And, as some may know if you follow the other site, I recently discovered over half of my 550's liners have pitting damage from cavitation, so I'm currently planning a Darton "big bore" replacement, and may soon have a 600 Maranello instead of a 550 :).

    As Taz said, there were numerous improvements made to the 575's cooling system over the earlier 456's and 550's. I think at one time I counted 4 revisions to the water pump alone from the 456 to the 575/612, and several from the 456 radiator to the 550/575, and the same with the fans & shrouds.

    So, do (3) V12's with overheating issues, and (2) of those with known cavitation damage to the liners make a case for an endemic problem with all of them? No, but IMO, I believe the combination of the older cooling system design, coupled with the local climatic conditions does set the stage for having these issues. Why the 575's don't suffer from it has to be down to the water pump revisions and the fan/shroud improvements. There are also several 575's here in Houston, and while I don't know the owners personally, I was made aware by Sphere Motorsports, who maintains them, that they have no overheating issues.

    Based on the above, I would strongly encourage anyone with a 456 or 550, who lives in a hot climate, to be absolutely anal about cooling system maintenance. If you're overheating in the summer, and the normal flushes & fills don't sort it out, and you've already gone down the road of upgraded hoses, 'stat, etc. it's time to look into an upgraded radiator, water pump, and upgraded fans & shroud.

    Ron Davis Radiators makes an upgraded model for the 456, and C&R Racing make one for the 550, and C&R are coming out with a new variable speed fan/shroud package for their 550 radiator. I'll have the first one in a couple of weeks.

    For the water pump, the smaller 575 pulley will fit onto the 456 and 550 pumps with no issues and will spin the pump faster to provide more flow at lower RPM. The 575 pump impeller is an improved design over the earlier models, however its height needs to be trimmed back, and its OD isn't optimum for the 456/550 pump body. I'm working to get a new design optimised for our pump bodies and that ought to be CNC'd and available this spring.
     
  13. henryr

    henryr Two Time F1 World Champ
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    forgive me but what is cavitation damage / liners ?
     
  14. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    #14 Cribbj, Nov 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    It's a fairly common problem with wet liner diesel engines, and can happen under the right conditions with wet liner gasoline engines. I'm no authority on it, but it's a combination of rapid expansion/contraction/vibration of the liners due to the firing pulses, coupled with coolant that is operating at or near its boiling point, coupled with turbulent flow.

    Under the right conditions, vapor bubbles will form near the surface of the liners, and pop, or more accurately, explode, with great force, causing a pit to form in the liner surface. Cavitation damage can be distinguished from corrosion damage by looking carefully at the pitting, and if it's shallower on the outer diameter of the pit, then goes deeper toward the center, it's almost always cavitation. Corrosion of the liner surface can then set in, and eventually will work its way through to the inner wall, and the engine will start losing or blowing out coolant. In Ron's instance, he had an advanced case of cavitation and corrosion had already set in and had eaten through his liner(s). In my case, I had only the pitting of the liner surface, but no corrosion had begun. There are pics on the other site if you're interested. Look for a thread entitled "550 "major" Major"

    BTW, here are a couple of pics showing the difference between a 550 radiator, fans & shroud, and the 575 fans & shroud.

    First pic is the 550 radiator with its standard fan & shroud setup

    Second pic is a 575 fan, sitting in the 550 shroud

    Third pic is the 575 shroud, with a 550 fan, sitting on a 550 radiator. All holes match up for mounting.
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  15. gsjohnson

    gsjohnson Formula 3

    Feb 25, 2008
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    Woodland Hills, CA
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    GS Johnson
    Curious John...What was the mileage on your three example 550s? Wasn't there a previous thread that talked about using distilled water with like a water wetter type additive?
     
  16. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    For cars like Ferraris with wet liners, your coolant needs to have nitrites, which counteract cavitation. Many of the 456s and early 550s did not get regular coolant changes. The corrosion inhibitors, including the nitrites, wore out, and we have seen the results. Like Brian Crall is fond of saying, regular changes (every other year for the V12s) of coolant combat many cooling system problems.
     
  17. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    #17 Cribbj, Nov 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Mine has 15K; I've forgotten what Ron & Mark's cars have.

    We started a thread last year on switching from 50/50 coolant to basically pure (RO) water with corrosion inhibitors. A pound or gallon of pure water can carry between 25-30% more heat away from the engine than the same amount of premix, so for a marginal cooling system, it can help the overall efficiency quite a bit.

    I was a big fan of Water Wetter for years, but had a bad experience with it in the Ferrari, along with either BMW premix or Prestone premix (have forgotten which it was). Google "Water Wetter brown slime". The pic below is what came out of my cooling system. After this, I flushed it thoroughly, several times, and went with pure RO water with a corrosion inhibitor package called No Rosion. No-Rosion also has a high level of nitrites, which should protect the liners from cavitation. In my case, I don't know when the cavitation occurred, or whether it was even during my ownership.
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  18. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    For owners not in severe heat locations like Houston, Zerex G05 seems to work really well and has nitrites incorporated. That used to be the coolant used by Mercedes until they switched to Zerex G48, which does not have nitrites. With no wet cylinder liners, Mercedes engines do not need the nitrites and the G48 has a longer life than the G05. Not permanent like Mercedes claims, but longer.
     
  19. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    This is what the diesel guys use and diesels are known to have this problem not because of heat but because of vibrations to be simple minded. Heat just makes it worse.

    https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/html/en/products/cooling/coolant/supp_add.html

    I have thought about Evans waterless coolant but then the car runs hotter because of the differences in spec heat vs. water and the extreme difficulty of flushing all the water out without having the engine block on a stand, clearing the evap core and the heater core etc. Is there value in having the car run at say 260 instead of 220 but have no liner cavitation? Does the car die a different death at 260? Can you get back to 220 with a giant radiator? Does the thicker Evans mess up the water pump which was designed to flow water?
     
  20. gsjohnson

    gsjohnson Formula 3

    Feb 25, 2008
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    GS Johnson
    Now that I'm thoroughly confused, I guess I'll try the G05 Zerex (Thanks for the tip Taz) and see how she runs...I'll alter my strategy if my car runs hotter than it should. I live in the Valley and it gets over a 100 degrees here in the summer...
     
  21. jznd

    jznd Formula Junior

    Oct 26, 2008
    373
    Hong Kong
    Here in Hong Kong, ambient temperatures usually hover in the low 90s in the peak of summer, although it can get up to 100F roadside with the black asphalt and concrete, or in a tunnel. So it's not the temperature that gets you per se, but the 80-90% humidity and pollution that comes with it. I lived in Houston for years, which is plenty humid in the summer, but somehow HK feels hotter.

    Here's a dumb question - does high humidity affect the cooling capacity of cars? I wouldn't think so, since there's no evaporative cooling in a car's cooling system, just the temperature differential between the hot fluids traveling through the radiator and the air that's being drawn over it. Or am I missing something?
     
  22. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    High humidity increases the heat capacity of the air passing through the radiator, so improves cooling, but it is a very small effect with the number actually crunched here in another thread by an FChatter with a good thermo background.
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    How many psi is the 550 radiator cap? Any difference on the 575?
     
  24. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    #24 Cribbj, Nov 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Carl, same (crap) cap used on just about all models from the 355 to the FF. 0.98 barg or 14.2 psig. I think Brian mentioned one time he may find 1-2 good ones out of a batch of 10?

    Ferrari Parts : Radiator Tank Cap : Ricambi America

    So here's a little mod that Dave & I did recently to our expansion tanks. There's a wide range of standard Stant pressure caps available, but we're trying the 18-22 psi one for now. Or I should say he's trying the 18-22 psi one, as between us, he's the only one with a running 550 :)
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  25. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    #25 Cribbj, Nov 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here's what cavitation pitting looks like on our liners. Notice how it almost looks as though someone took a center punch to the surface. In my engine's case, the pitting was most severe in the middle cylinders, particularly #4, and it diminished toward the front & rear cylinders.

    One unusual phenomenon I noticed was that all the pitting was on the inboard side of the liners, ie facing the Vee, and the incoming cool water from the water pump. I would have thought it would have been on the hotter outlet side of the liners.

    After an internal inspection of the water jackets, I did find a chunk of casting slag (still attached to the block) opposite #4, which undoubtedly increased the turbulence of the coolant flow in that area, and may have contributed to the cavitation pitting in that cylinder. I was able to get in there with a grinder on an extension shaft and get rid of it.

    These are pics of the #4 liner.
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