FHP v HGTC

Good summary

 

Darius- HGTC was a much more expensive and inclusive package than FHP and also included huge carbon ceramic brakes. FHP cost around $4K and HGTC cost about $25K. Full details in the 575 Technical Thread, but here is more information than you probably need.

575M HGTC vs FHP Spring Stiffness

HGTC

Front Springs: 35% Stiffer
Rear Springs: 15% Stiffer
19.5 mm Rear Anti-Roll Bar: 73% Stiffer

FHP

Front Springs: 32% Stiffer
Rear Springs: 12.5% Stiffer
21 mm Rear Anti-Roll Bar: 133% Stiffer
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How significant is the driving experience between the two? If I'm looking for a 575M, is the FHP enough or should I hold out to find a HGTC?

 

Walker- I would hold out for the HGTC, if you can find one. Only somewhere around 100-200 built and only for MY05 in the US. Expect to pay about the original option price, $25K, more for one than an equivalant 575M without HGTC, maybe more.

 

Darius – I see you are still thinking about a 575M

The HGTC version has many things the FHP does not have (CCM breaks, better software for gearbox, louder exhaust).

I once compare the standard 575M with the HGTC version when my HGTC was new to me in this thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/456-550-575-sponsored-bradan/353855-sad-day-me-my-575m.html

See posts #106 http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/141264429-post106.html
And post #123 http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/141369648-post123.html

Cheers

Markus

 

PS: When you come to Zurich next time, let me know. So we can go for a drive with my 575M HGTC if you want.

Markus

 

Darius, That one is misleadingly advertised as an "HGTE" but there was no such model...

It looks like it could be a nice car but the advert also mentions "PACK HANDLING FIORANO" but it can't be both FHP and HGTC so perhaps the vendor is just playing the clickbait game / buzzword bingo?

What you can tell from the photos is that it looks like a standard car with a number of visible options (F1 transmission, daytonas, 19" modulars & 250GT-style grille) but it clearly lacks the all-important carbon ceramic brakes with larger calipers and the double-walled exhaust tailpipes of the HGTC spec.

In addition, its listed as a 07/2003 car so it's too early to have been a factory HGTC car - but it could in theory have been a retrofit car...

It's possible that it is FHP but that cannot be determined from the photos... Red brake calipers (not fitted here) could be considered as a clue as it was the default for FHP but any of the four standard colours: red, black, yellow or silver could have been specified in either the standard or FHP guise specs.

I would say that given that this car is in the discrete colour scheme of Argento/Blu Scuro with no shields that there is every chance that a discerning customer asked for the calipers to be painted silver to complete the look but it would be good to see the original invoice or MODIS report to confirm.

The modulars and 250GT-style grille could have been added later and it would be good to know if the modulars are the later part number as they would potentially be worth more as the fronts would then be HGTC compatible.

Back to the HGT* confusion... You can have the HGTC pack on a 575M but the HGTE abbreviation popped-up for the first time on the 599 GTB Fiorano and then just to add to the potential for confusion, on the 612 you have HGTC and HGTS packs with the former featuring the carbon brakes and the latter retaining steels...

If you read the 575 Technical Thread, you will appreciate that there were some differences in the the later production years that are worth something to some people and wouldn't be on this 2003 car...

There's a lot of froth about 3 pedal 575M's these days and I totally understand why they are in demand but at least with the F1 HGTC, you are looking at the very best implementation of the F1 transmission in a Maranello body and it really is impressive on any level. The F1 system in the late model 575M included some upgraded hardware that was rolled out in parallel with the launch of the HGTC transmission ECU which offered improved shift speeds so that is also worth bearing in mind. Perhaps one day we will read about a successful HGTC transmission ECU upgrade on a late 575M? e.g. The 575M HGTS that they never built!

My advice to anyone looking for a 3 pedal Maranello would be to focus on 550s as if the manual shift is truly *the feature* that you value above everything else, you will have an easier time finding a 550 that should appeal. If you truly want some of the benefits that are only found with the 575M but need that extra pedal, you will be extremely lucky if the stars align and you find your car but as you begin to roll in requirements on colour scheme, seats, shields, FHP or HGTC etc. you're going to need more than a bit of luck, no matter how deep your pockets are.

If you get the sense from the above that 575M shopping is a potential nightmare filled with traps then you're not far off the mark but when you find the right car for you, its bliss.

 

Thanks Terry. I've monitored the 575 market for about 6 months and I've only seen one HGTC come up (Domenic's beautiful TDF, manual), so I'm aware one will be hard to find. I'm in no hurry though.

I've learned a tremendous amount from your posts. Like my dad always told me, before you buy the car (or motorcycle in his case), buy a book. You have been as good or better than any book. So thank you for that!

Walker

 

first of all there were no HGTE 575...and this is clearly not a HGTC, possibly a Fiorano

just look at the brakes: steel and small diameter

 

Walker- I was only half kidding on the HGTC 575M. Could be a long wait. You are probably better off looking for a good 575M, and late 575Ms do not really need FHP or HGTC. So you could find a good one and have fun driving her for quite a while before an HGTC pops up. Early 575Ms with FHP and late ones (post AN 52556) with the steering position sensor handle fine and a change of shock absorber ECU really improves handling on those early 575Ms with shock absorber ECU 183960.

That Euro 575M from 2003 is most assuredly not an HGTE (599), HGTC, or HGTC conversion.

 

Thanks Terry, I'm sure that is what will eventually happen. I don't want to sit around waiting to catch a unicorn and miss a lot of great driving time!

Walker

 

I was about to issue a mild judicial dissent to the earlier opinion of il maestro, Taz, to this effect:

a good 575M with FHP is relatively easy to find; a good one with HGTC, other than Domenic's car, will be very hard to find. I'm guessing that the really major difference bet the two packs is the brakes; you wouldn't need the HGTC brakes unless you are going to track the car. Not certain what specific differences Taz refers to bet early and late 575's but I've driven an early 575 without FHP and found there to be a perceptible difference in both steering, handling and ride, the early non-FHP cars being noticeably 'softer'.

 

Seth- That is a very complicated subject treated in the 575M technical thread. Attached is a document on 575M shock absorber ECUs. Unless you know exactly what ECUs an early 575M is running, it is difficult to make generalizations. Upgrading the shock absorber ECU on an early 575M has a significant effect on the handling. So does the steering position sensor introduced in November 2003, which cannot be retrofitted. Just after mine, unfortunately. But for mine with FHP and an even better shock ECU, handling is outstanding. Helped by MPSS tires.

The HGTC package includes way, way more than just the brakes. Shocks with new mounts, underbody parts with extra scoops and hoses for brake cooling, new A arms with brackets for cooling hoses, improved TCU with 180 ms shifting and direct communication with the shock ECU, springs, rear anti-rollbar, new Motronic ECUs providing additional info for the shock ECU/TCU comm, sport exhaust, etc. That is why it cost so much. That and the brakes, a $15K option on most Ferraris, so $10K for the rest.
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HGTC...I brought mine fromGermany, bought at a Ferrari main dealership.

There are 1-2 HGTCs for sale in Switzerland, but beware: bringing them back to the UK will cost more than they are advertised for: you will need to pay VAT on top of the purchase price. New cars in Switzerland are sold VAT-free...hence appear cheaper.
Whereas EU cars are VAT exempt when brought back to the UK, as the VAT was paid when the cars were originally sold the first time.

 

Thrasher - a slight correction, if I may.

Cars in Switzerland are subject to local VAT at 8% but Switzerland is of course not part of the EU so does not benefit from the free movement of goods regime.

Most cars are owned by individuals but you may find a car that is owned by a VAT registered company and in that case, the asking price could well include 8% VAT... For an export sale (out of Switzerland), the Swiss corporate owner may legitimately knock the 8% off and sell it VAT free to a foreign buyer - but don't ask me for more details on this as it each Canton could have it's own peculiar rules but I would imagine that it would be a easy for a dealer in a border canton such as Basel to handle that...

The main issue right now is the recent appreciation of the Swiss Franc but motivated sellers will have to take that into consideration and adjust if they want to sell but nobody should rule out a Swiss market car as the price may still work out to be competitive, even if an import into the UK for example would mean that 20% UK VAT would need to be budgeted for.

Interestingly, the country as a whole is long on Maranellos... I see 33 575M's listed on autoscout24.ch including 4 real HGTC's (if you exclude the 'GTC' that isn't and include the 'Fiorano' that isn't!). I'm not aware of huge number of sales in the past 12 months but note that the HGTC retrofit car that I tested last year has gone and the surprisingly cheap 3 pedal car has gone (both in the last quarter).

Then there are 18x 550s listed for sale which may seem a lot for a small country but for the past five or so years that I've been following the market, there has often been twice that and often a broadly equivalent number of 550s/575Ms for sale at any one time so this does appear to support the theory that the 'heat' remains with the 550 but it would be interesting to know how many have been exported or have just been withdrawn from sale or perhaps found new homes over here.

P.S. There's one dealer over here that has 13x 575Ms and 7x 550s in stock. I doubt that there's anywhere else in the world with that many but not sure how motivated they are to sell as I believe that the group is privately owned and the owners have deep pockets and may be taking the long term view! http://www.elite-zuzwil.ch/index.php/home.html

 

I spoke to the owner about one year ago. He has about 1 000 cars there. Very impressive! Most are in closed rooms but some are also just standing there outside. We were looking at a 348 which was just standing outside all the time. Car did not start, did not look good just from the outside and we left after a couple of minutes. But talked to the owner who owns this business for decades, knows Valentino Balboni (the famous test driver from Lambo) in person and has lots of car stories. And I think he told me that it is just his own money into the cars. No banks or whatsoever.

Markus

 

Taz, I actually have no complaints about the handling of my early 575M, probably because I drive it as swift and tourqey GT...

BUT is there a shock ECU that I can fit that will improve handling and NOT light up a warning light. Possibly from MSW?

If not I will forget about all FHP/HGTC discussions and carry on fast Grand Touring in perfect comfort !

 

You first need to be sure what is actually fitted - there are something like nine iterations - some of which only differ by part no

It has been said that just the FHP steering ECU alone can improve handling feel effectively because its harder work so one is less likely to snatch at the steering hence the load transfer is more progressive

 

Graham- Affirmative, if you have Shock Absorber ECU 183960, retrofitting with 201674 will make a noticeable improvement in handling. If you have 201673 or 197211, not worth the effort and cost. Either 205618 or 205619 will work well, too, but are generally more expensive. No MSW on shock ECUs. Currently too complicated to reproduce.

The FHP hydraulic steering ECU (this in not the steering position sensor) from MSW also is a worthwhile investment, like Jimmie said, as is a larger rear anti-roll bar if you can find one. MSW is working on a hollow anti-roll bar equivalent to the FHP 21 mm bar.

 

Thanks guys, appreciate the info

 

Hi,

I don't know if this is the right thread to ask this question. I think that my 575 has the FHP option since it has the red callipers. My question is that my car is a 2003 MY and has covered about 8000mi. When I drive it, it feel that the shock absorbers are a bit soft and the car is a bit unsettling. When I run over speed humps, the shock absorbers give a little sound. How do I check if I need to change the shocks or springs? Are there any good replacement like KW or Novitec instead of the factory shocks? I have the factory 19" wheels on the car.

Thanks in advance.

HS

 

There is nothing wrong with your shocks, which are pretty much indestructible Sachs models. Red calipers do not mean FHP since colored calipers were a separate, much cheaper option. Odds are any suspension noise you hear is a suspension bushing and not the shocks.

First thing to do should be to have a four wheel suspension alignment and ride height adjustment in case someone lowered her to where the shocks are not in their best operating range.

Second thing is to look behind the carpet in the cheek panel on the passenger side and see what shock ECU you have. If 183960, replace it with a newer version. If 201673, no replacement necessary.

Let us know the results.