Hello, The recent Amelia Island sale of a stick 599 GTB might be a freak outlier, or it might be a signal of desirability for the last stick shift Ferraris of the modern era. In Europe, there is a stick 599 GTB for sale asking 295K despite a high 65.000 Km mileage. The rest of the 599 GTB market spans 82K to 139K, despite most examples being far lower mileage. See here: Offers: Ferrari, 599, Final price (?) from ? 1,000.- On the other hand, there are 2 stick 612's for sale, for NO premium over the F1 paddles. Surely this is an opportunity, as the stick 612 will be (one of) the very last stick Ferrari of the modern era. My questions: - What are the respective production numbers of 599 and 612 stick versions? - Why might the stick 612 not rise in value like the stick 599? I'm not "an investor" ; rather I'm a passionate long-time car collector who would like to be able to better economically justify the purchase of this wonderful car. Thanks,
I don't know the exact numbers, but I think there are probably way more 3-pedal 612s than 599s. You could only get a 3-pedal 599 for one year, and probably less in reality. You could get a 3-pedal 612 for 3 years. And, many people had poor experiences with the 3-pedal 599s (yes, yes, some people love them) but I've heard nothing but good things about 3-pedal 612s, from everyone. This resulted in more people ordering 612s new this way.
Let me help you out here, Don... One could order a 3-pedal 599 from 2007 through 2011. The last 599 manual we know about was produced in June 2011, #182599. RM Auctions contacted Ferrari, who told them 20 USA cars were produced. However, serial number watchers (Carbon McCoy) counts between 32 to 37 manual USA 599s. The best information suggests about 10% of 612 production were manuals, or about 300. And it is true that people like to propagate the myth that "many people had poor experiences with the 3-pedal 599s". These "many people" either have never owned one, test drove one once, or were unaccustomed to traditional old-school balky gated manuals and expect them to shift as easy as an F1. The 612 does not have as free-revving an engine as the 599's Enzo-derived unit, so the 612 requires less double-clutching talent and is easier to drive. Hope this helps.
Well as long as you are not "an investor" it doesn't make any difference. Buy the car, and transmission, you will enjoy most.
I didn't realize you could order a manual all the way through 599 production! As I'm sure you know, Ferrari shut down manual 612 orders in early 2008... just as I ordered mine. I know that there are some true believers in manual 599s, and that's great. I would love to give one a try some day.
Hey Don, Beware of "true believers". Manual 599s are not a religion. I speak from experience. And Alex, you would do well to buy a manual 612 or 599. They are justifiable fun and more likely to hold their value than an F1 version.
Don- They actually shut down 3 pedal 612s in CY 2007 when the 612 changed from Motronic 7.1.1 to Motronic 7.3.2. Ferrari could not be bothered to develop manual Motronic ECUs for 7.3.2, especially since the Sessanta prototype for the OTO had a new gearbox case and new twin-late clutch. Plus production was very low in the later years with 612s special order only. Probably happened around SN 157000 (599 was 156938 in the US). Think how lucky you were to get an OTO, though. Note I had the changeover date for 7.3.2 wrong on the 612 and 599 in earlier posts. 25 MHz processors in the Monroney fooled me, but 7.1.1 has 25 MHz processors.
Taz- I remember your comments earlier on the ECU change after the 2005 model year. So, I appreciate the update. To further confusion, there appears to have been several updates in the 2007 - 2008 span; involving the new Bose Entertainment system and OTO, I guess. So, I have a 2007 612 HGTS (154717) that does not have the Bose system and is not an OTO. The Build date on the door sticker shows May, 2007. The warranty ran from July 2007 - July 2010; so, the car was probably handed to 1st customer around July 2007. Strangely, the engine sticker shows 2006 for some reason, as noted on the PPI. So, what ECU version does my car have? Thanks in advance.
If you can find a nice manual 612 , buy it, they are glorious cars to drive and own. And an absolutely great place for your money. I'm not sure where you are but RHD cars are almost impossible to find!
Given the change in the ECU, can you explain why they offered the 3 pedal in the 599 through 2011? Especially since, I believe, the 599 has the same clutch as the OTO? I always figured it had to do with the costs of certifying the 612 3-pedal for US (and maybe euro?) emissions.
Don- They started the 599 with the 599 gearbox and twin-plate clutch, obviously, so that required a new shifter set-up for the 599 manuals from the start. That shifter mechanism never changed. Apparently the change to 7.3.2 was not that difficult to make and just required manual Motronic DMEs. The 612 manual shifter (and transaxle) is largely identical to the 550 and 575M, with many interchangeable parts in the shifter and transaxle. The first 7.3.2 612s were the Sessantas, and Ferrari already knew they were going to the 599 gearbox case and twin plate clutch used on the Sessanta in the near future (OTO). So rather than have to develop an entirely different shifter mechanism, part 599 and part 550/575/612, plus new Motronic DMEs for that shifter, they just kissed it off. Too few sales for the engineering dollar investment. In theory they could have done some interim manual 7.3.2 612s from late 07 and early 08 that still had the old transaxle and single plate clutch. That would have just required new manual Motronics. But we all know they did not. Too few sales for even that small effort, especially since it would have only been a few month's worth of 612s.
Don, The 599 uses a different clutch than the 612. Different components. Even the plate is different. The 599 GTB & GTO clutch is a dual plate part #222277. The 612 uses the same clutch as the 512M, 456, & 575 part #194776. Here are links to see the differences: http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=1&Mo=704&A=1&B=41984&S= http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=1&Mo=641&A=1&B=36728&S=
Gary- Only partially true. Don's OTO (and the Sessanta) has the 599 gearbox case and 599 twin-disc clutch. See below: Have to be careful when generalizing about the 612. Got kind of complicated during CY 2007 and 2008. So did the 599 story. Image Unavailable, Please Login
I thought the 599 6 speed was only available in 2007, and that there were either 33 or 37 sent to the US...you learn something new every day!
Very interesting, Terry. I got caught-out by Eurospares, who do not have any parts-pages for the OTO or Sessanta. And when I cross-referenced the 599 clutch, only the GTB & GTO came up as the same. Thank you.
Don- More 612 trivia. The OTO with HGT2 was actually the prototype for the 599 HGTE transmission ECU (TCU). HGT2 OTOs offered 85 ms shifting over a year before it was incorporated into the HGTE package for the 599. With 7.3.2, the 599 gearbox case, twin-disc clutch, and Superfast software, the HGT2 OTO made a perfect testbed for 599 HGTE.
3025 total 612s, no clue on RHD. And this is the only reason we know that. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Adam- Just a WAG on when they made the change based on knowing the 599 changed to 7.3.2 at SN 156938 in the US. We know that because the HGTE (7.3.2) ECUs are not compatible until that SN. No such specific info on the 612 that I have seen. Best way to check on individual 612s is to look at the engine number data on the engine. 7.1.1 612s will say Type F133F with the engine number below and 7.3.2 engines will say Type F133H.
