Hello, I am living in Greece and all my money are under capital control at the moment. This means that I can transfer money from bank to bank or purchase whatever I want via bank transfer but can not have "cash on hand" or export money abroad. My main fear is that in this economy the possibility of a "haircut" to my deposits is more than sure, so I am trying to find ways of protection. One of my thoughts is to convert deposits to "things" I can sell afterwards in other countries (so as to have cash abroad). Art is one sound investment, but at the moment there are no options for this, as no good examples are on the market. Cars on the other side, could be a way to deal with the problem. So I found this 2005-612 with a perfect status report and only 9.650 km on the clock Ferrari 612 AUTO BESIKOS-SCAGLIETTI F1 '2005 - 85000 EUR - Car.gr Selling at 85.000 euros And also Ferrari 612 SCAGLIETTI F1 '2005 - 93000 EUR - Car.gr this one selling at 93.000 euros also with a perfect status report. My question to you is, what is the trend of the market these days? How much do you estimate that I will lose if I sell in a year or so? I am facing the possibility of a 30% haircut to the deposits. So any loss up to 30% from reselling these cars abroad is acceptable. Of course a haircut may not happen, banks could open for free transactions in less than two years, so in the case prices drop, this could be a big hit to my cashflow. Any input is appreciated. Best Regards.
Just a clarification: Right now in Greece you can withdraw just 60 euros per day from all your bank accounts. Nothing else. This will last for at least a year and in October after the banks stress tests there will be a rule that secures 100.000 euros per person at any bank Therefore an account with 200.000 euros and one account holder has only 100.000 secured. The rest will be used for a bail in.
While I adore the car, a Scaglietti isn't going to be your best investment. Buy one if you actually want one.
There are only 42 Ferraris for sale in the entire country at the moment. 20 of them are total crap, 10 are overpriced 430's and the rest are 612's and 599's at absurd prices. Somehow Ferrari prices are still high even after all this crisis thing that's killing the market. You can find a decent 996\911T at about 20.000-25.000 euros, but the cheapest 360 (beat up and no history) starts at 50.000 euros. My idea was to buy one or two cars or a boat or something I could sell abroad and get cash in hand or a deposit to a foreign bank so as to overcome this capital control hell we're into. This is one of my saddest moments. All these years of hard work all these money I could have spent for myself or the family will evaporate if a Grexit happens. Sorry for the rant. I am feeling depressed.
Before buying a car, check the price the car sells for in the country you want to ship it to. Ferraris are cheaper in some countries. You don't want to get stuck with the car either. Gold/diamonds/precious stones are not available?
If a 30% haircut is ok then why not just buy land in a good area? I am sure given the long sustained drop and the current liquidity problems you will get some good/great deals and your downside will be much better protected.
Car is a hard asset and can roll out (or shipped?) of the country. Can't do that with your bank account and your bank account could instantly be in a different currency than Euros. Hence many people in your situation are doing similar things. The policy in place is there to encourage you to spend your money on things to help keep the economy moving.... I agree with the others that other hard assets might be preferable. Can you buy real property outside of Greece? How about diamonds etc? I also think you have to decide if you will stay in Greece or not. I don't envy the situation you are in. I wish you good luck and sorry to read of the troubles your great country is facing. I think one day it will recover.
Land or buildings are complicated. There is the market price (that you actually pay for) and the tax price, that is what the government has decided that is a "fair" price for whatever you buy. Example, a house of 300 sq/m with a garden of 200 sq/m at a nice suburb has a market price of 400.000 euros, but the tax office says that a fair price for it is 700.000 euros so no matter what you pay for it, you are taxed at 700.000 euros and besides that you have to pay an annual fee of 1.500 for as long as you keep it. I am not lying about this check it out, this is real. I am the owner of a small chemical factory and I pay 3.500 euros per year just for land taxes, besides the 45% of my revenue which is normal tax. Besides that I have to pay car taxes (5.500,euros for two 911's and a 360 registered on my name) and an outrageous sum because my son studies in England and I send him money abroad. I am not lying about any of the above, everything is messed up here. We are ruined in all ways (even my portfolio has taken loss of more than 80% and the bloody stock market is closed for more than 25 days so I can not sell anything even with a loss). I am desperate, I always minded my business I have no loans I have a reputable company and this f%cked up communist bastards ruined my entire life. I can not even pay a subscription to this forum because my credit cards are blocked and can not be charged from foreign banks. Sorry once again everybody, I am in a very bad emotional state.
Thank you everyone for the sympathy. I can not leave this country. My business is here, I have 30 employees on the payroll how can I leave them unemployed? Many of them are in the factory since my father god rest his soul was in charge. Diamonds, gold etc have sky rocketed to a 40% premium from prices abroad. Gold coins are controlled from the central bank and it is illegal to purchase them from jewellery stores etc. I was a sentimental idiot when everybody told me to move the business to Romania or Bulgaria as everybody did, and now I have to face the consequences. At least I have managed to send some money abroad so my son can finish university and find something to do outside this country. I think ill have a drink. Sorry once again I am way off topic here and probably talking about restricted matters.
Wow! I cannot imagine. Definitely feel for you and hope things get better soon. Almost sounds like a Ferrari is better than having cash or property?? Maybe Rolexes or precious stones, art, etc. are better to own? But with a 612 at least you will enjoy yourself! I like the 93000 euro one better! Good luck.
I just returned from a trip to Athens and have a very close friend from there whose mother is a small business owner like you and in a similar state. I am very sorry to hear about your situation and my heart goes out to people similar to you (including you of course) who have been good honest citizens and are now being made to pay for sins of others. Hopefully, the state will work a way out and not make its citizens pay. P.S. Did not know about how property is taxed so scratch that idea.
Given your situation, I feel you have few options. Can you buy the 612 and drive it to another country for future sale without the government taxing the hell out of title transfer? If you can without huge taxation; DO IT NOW!! I own a 612 and feel they still have some room to depreciate, but the 2005 model has already seen most of it's depreciation. The 2008-2010 have more depreciation ahead. Your situation is a lesson we should all be watching because we may have the same problem some day.
I would go the route of less expensive classic cars, something in the range of 25-60000 euros. Check this site to get an idea of what some vehicles are going for, and then try to find some deals in Greece. Much less chance of vehicle depreciation, and more likely value will rise as time goes on: https://www.classicdriver.com/en/cars
As already suggested, If I was you I would investigate better the possibility to buy some watches, strictly Rolex (they are less prone to depreciation). They also would be much easier to keep and to sell one day.
The market for 2005 and 2006 612s in the UK is fairly straightforward. Cars with good history and offered by a dealer are in the £60-£65,000 range. There are now some 456 cars trading at prices higher than this, and I think that this will mean that early 612 prices will not drop any further than the £60-£65,000 range. The situation that you describe regarding bank deposits is horrible. I think I would rather have £60,000 in a good 612 than in a Greek bank.
Thanks for the input everyone. And also for giving me the opportunity to ventilate. The Tax on watches has been increased by 23% so there is no "bargain" in this market. We pay 30% more for a watch than any other European. I am watching the news right now, they just increased the tax in fuel by 63% calling it "special tax of consumption" whatever on earth this is supposed to mean. Above all that, they say on the tv (the circus parliament is voting at the moment) that they will tax the interest on the deposits at 20%. This is beyond me. Figure this: For every 1.000 I earn, I pay 450 direct tax. So this leaves me with 550 euros net. If I spend these 550 for gasoline, food and clothes, 130 euros are also taxes included in the price. If I spend them to by a watch, a tv, or a phone 230 euros tax applies to the price. If I spend them to buy a house (well no house costs 550 euros but as an example),245 euros taxes will be applied. This is..... I do not know what this is. This is madness. I can still buy some watches second hand, but what am I supposed to do with them? I can not take.them abroad and sell them. They will arrest me at the airport. They even established a law that says that you can not carry more than 10.000 euros cash when travelling abroad. They even arrested some people at the airport and charged them with tax evasion accusations. My son did a search on the German market and Ferrari prices are way lower than what we have here, so there goes nothing. I will have to abandon this idea. Buying a 612 at 95.000 euros, leads to vehicle special tax 4.500 (per year) road tax 1.300 per year so 5.800 euros just to keep the freakin car in the garage. I am done. I had to many drinks for one night, I am devastated, I am angry. Sorry to waste your time. Thank you for listening.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2103310&stc=1&d=1437603222 This is the Prime Minister talking on the parliament right now. He came to power 5 months ago and 30 days ago we had a referendum about the Grexit. He ruined the economy. He ruined all of us. Now this man, in the parliament, said he is proud to be a communist and that the new tax plan is good for the nation. Good God. Goodnight everyone.
There are thousands and thousands of F430 - they will be depreciating for many years to come. 612 is much rarer - just over 3000 or so produced and is classic front-engined V12. I know 2+2s have not been historically very popular, but the 612 can hold its own against just about anything out there. Technology has allowed the 2+2 to catch up.
Aris, I'm truly very sorry about what is happening in your beautiful country right now. If you don't need the money now, what about buying gold coins? Prices are low at the moment, it's a good time to buy.
for a ferrari sports car experience, i think my 430 is much more representable than my 612. A 612 is for someone who already have a few ferraris.
Can't you establish a foreign company, say in Malta or Cyprus? Or a subsidiary to your existing one? And then place the money in that company? In your situation, I'd move to another country and run the business from there. You just need to be less then 6 months in Greece. Maybe through another company where you are employed and you consult the existing company? Are you not allowed to buy a car in the EU? Can you not buy the car outside of Greece? Have they limited bank transfers within EU as well? Also for companies? Establish a company, put the money in that company and the company buys the car. Has to be ways to work around.
You can not transfer money anywhere. A committee has been established that controls what you want to do. All the money that the country got in these days after the deal has gone to salaries and pensions and resupplying ATMs with cash. There was no allocation for bank transactions for companies. I applied to the committee for permission to pay 65.000 euros for imported supplies for my company and only 3.000 euros were approved. Establishing a company abroad will not work, unless I relocate the production also. Thanks for all the attention guys.
