Road Racing Tires for 599? | FerrariChat

Road Racing Tires for 599?

Discussion in '612/599' started by 599ing, Aug 14, 2015.

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  1. 599ing

    599ing Rookie

    Sep 7, 2010
    25
    Anyone tried road racing tires for the 599?

    Looking for something equivalent to Pirelli Trofeo R, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2, Nitto NT01.
    They don't come in 245/35R20 and 305/35R20 or even 315/35R20. Maybe someone tried them on a different size wheel? Or tried other tires of equivalent caliber or better?

    Closest option I found (that will fit the stock size wheels) are Nitto NT555 for the front and NT555R (drag radials) for the rear. With drag radials, I heard some have experienced sidewall flexing when cornering if used on a track course but I don't plan on pushing the car to that extent. Just fun driving.

    As good as a performer of Michelin PSS are, I heard the Michelin Sport Cup 2 are that much better.
     
  2. Roupin

    Roupin Formula 3

    Oct 7, 2013
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    I wouldn't use a drag radial in corners.
     
  3. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Karting

    Jan 3, 2015
    149
    Sedona, Dallas
    drag radials sound like a bad idea

    I'm all for buying new stuff, and sticky tires can be fun, but for fun track driving I would just leave on the Michelin PSS. The limits of those tires are pretty high and they breakaway in a progressive predictable fashion. My experience with pilot sport cups is that they are like driving on ice cubes when they are cold, they come to temperature in an unpredictable fashion (especially related to the different sides of the car) but they are great once up to temp.
     
  4. 599ing

    599ing Rookie

    Sep 7, 2010
    25
    Thanks for the great feedback.

    I hear great stuff on Michelin PSS, but I also hear launch or first gear acceleration causes wheel spin on multiple different cars making 420-450rwhp (on manual transmission cars with those power levels even 2nd gear had wheel spin).

    When it comes to road racing, its a rare occurrence but I'd still prefer road racing tires on all 4 tires (vs drag radials just in rear) for overall better handling & stability while still having as good traction as drag radials (or better) making them ideal for street use as well (when warm). Oh and I almost forgot to mention the massive improvement in braking.

    Previously, I have personally used nitto 555R drag radials (which are far from the stickiest drag radial out there) on a different car making 525rwhp 600rwtq. The available traction on the street/track with such high torque even on 1st gear was mind blowing. Shockingly, it actually drove decently in a rainstorm too... under civil driving.

    As for aggressive cornering with the drag radials, I have personally not tried that but heard sidewall flexing may only be an issue when cornering for the hard core road racer.

    Of course, I still prefer road racing tires.
    Michelin PSS is my last resort. Pzeros are out of the question.
     
  5. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    See if bfg rivals come in your size. I tracked them on gtr with great results
     
  6. DK308

    DK308 F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2013
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    They don't.
     
  7. DK308

    DK308 F1 Rookie

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    #7 DK308, Aug 15, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2015
    Here's a question.

    Are you going to put them on a separate set of rims that you're going to use for track only?

    If so, the there's no need to go OE size if they are not going to be used for DD on the street. Go as wide as you can, and a smaller diameter will only serve as a more aggressive final ratio, i.e, better acceleration. A smaller diameter will also lower the center of gravity, as it lowers the whole car. As long as you stay close to the F/R diameter difference, there won't be issues with the abs or traction control. The smaller wheels will definitely look a bit odd on the street, but for track only, does it matter?

    The MPSC2 could be run in 265/35R19-325/30R20.
    The Trofeo R could be run in 245/35R19-305/30R20.

    If there's room in the rear, and there should be, MPSC2 could also be run in 275/35R19-345/30R20. These will only be 0.2" smaller in diameter than the OE tyres, so it will not be noticeable. They should fit with the right offset as others have run 355/25R21 in the rear of 599's. Just make sure that the wheel manufacture and vendor knows what they are doing to avoid fitment issues. HRE would be a good place to start, and there are a few vendors in the forum who seems to know their stuff.

    Note that of course none of these suggestions will fit OE 599 20"/20" rims as they are 19"/20" sets. The Trofeo R suggestion will fit on OE 19"/20" 599 rims, but they will be substantially smaller in diameter than OE wheels, i.e, 1.1" front and rear @ 25,9" and 27,3" compared to 26,8" and 28,4".

    Just suggestions.
     
  8. 599ing

    599ing Rookie

    Sep 7, 2010
    25
    Thanks 95spiderman, I hear good things about the Toyo R888 and just seen a set on a GTR. Would be worth considering for the gtr's next trackday. (I did not however pay attention if the wheels were stock). They are not available for 599 sizes.

    Thanks DK308 for taking the time to really help me out. Much is appreciated.

    I do want them to fit OE 599 20"/20". No intentions on separate set of rims. The car will be driven on the street far more than the track (not a daily driver though so it wont see rain or snow). I just read that, unlike the NT555Rs, the Trofeo Rs pick up too many stones and are easily punctured from small stones so they lost my vote.

    Going with less sidewall is not something I want to do.
     
  9. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    Toyos are.good. i had them on gt3 and lotus
    Trofeos are no worse on street than any other r compound like mpsc2. Theyd be great for 599 if right size
    New viper acr has new kumho r compounds that might fit you
    What does 599gto come with?
     
  10. DK308

    DK308 F1 Rookie

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    The 599GTO comes with the MPSS 285/30R20 K1 Ferrari and 315/35R20 K1 Ferrari. They won't fit any of the stock 20" 599 rims other than the GTO rims.
     
  11. DK308

    DK308 F1 Rookie

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    No problem

    You look to be out of luck with stock wheels. Why not just get a nice set of rims similar to what is on the GTO like HRE P101 or a set of Forgeline GA1R http://www.forgeline.com/products/one-piece-monoblock/ga1r.html Forgeline: GA1R Forged Aluminum One-Piece Monoblock Open Lug Racing Wheel and run the 275/30R19 and 345/30R20? It will look great and give you a ton of grip over most things available with an actual tread?
     
  12. 599ing

    599ing Rookie

    Sep 7, 2010
    25
    Stock wheels are very difficult but Im not ready to give up on them yet lol.
    For the rears, I have decided to go with NT555R on same tire size 305/35R20 to finally get the best traction that is street friendly.

    Now I am thinking about the fronts and not sure what to decide on.

    1) Nitto makes an NT555 (no R - so not a drag radial) for the fronts. They match the tread pattern of the 555r. So I am considering those. But I dont know how the NT555 (no R) would compare with the OEM Pirellis Pzero when it comes to traction/handling/braking?

    2) Should I do MPSS for the fronts with NT555rs for the rears?
    I could care less if the tread patterns dont match aesthetically wise (but care a lot of tread pattern affects performance/grip wise)? The 599 is too low as it to really see the front tread pattern anyway.

    3) Go with something else?

    I never had an issue with the OEM Pirellis (when it comes to the front tires), I am mostly concerned with the rears. But, I would not like to reduce front traction (especially now that rear traction will be upgraded) or it may cause understeer. I am not quite sure though if im being a bit too extreme here?

    As far as too much available traction in front tire, given the rears are drag radials and +60mm larger that would be near impossible so its not a concern to me.
     
  13. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    You should contact nitto directly before going with drag radials. Or maybe tire rack. This is a popular tire for gtr that drag but users swap them out when leave strip.
     
  14. DK308

    DK308 F1 Rookie

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    #14 DK308, Aug 20, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
    If you get an ok from Nitto to use the 555R on the rear, get the stickiest fronts you can, otherwise the car will push and understeer like mad. In other words, put Pirelli Trofeo R on the front in 245/35R20.
    If you have the 8,5" wide HTGE fronts, you can also put on 255/35R20 Continental Contiforcecontact, but note that they will not fit the stock or Challenge 8"x20" fronts, only the 8,5"x20"HTGE rims.

    Don't use those drag radials unless you get an ok from the Nitto and nobody else, especially if you mix tyres as the 555R is not a true radial. According to Nitto it's a semi radial construction, and my concern is that it may cause some of the dangerous symptoms one can experience when mixing radials and bias ply tyres on the same car. Ask Nitto, and tell them exactly what you intend to do.
     
  15. 599ing

    599ing Rookie

    Sep 7, 2010
    25
    Thanks guys. Here are the points of view of all

    1- Nitto
    Informed them of vehicle, driving style and intentions (95+% street 5% track), concern with under steer on NT555 fronts while NT555R rear especially when taking high speed turns 140-220kph on road/track or spirited street driving in twisties, should I expect under steer at high levels a cause for alarm, is it ok/better to go with stickier front tires of other brands (as size is unavailable by Nitto), and more details. Their reply:

    "The ideal set up for the NT555R drag radial on the rear would be the NT555 on the front. Since the NT555R is designed for excellent straight line traction for drag competition, if using for road racing, it may have a little more sidewall flex when cornering.

    The NT01 would be best recommended for track/road courses, however, in this case is the sizes you are preferring are not available.

    The right setup for you would ultimately depend on what you feel most comfortable with."

    2- tire rack reply:
    Do not mix brands/tread patterns/compounds as they will cause unpredictable handling for the driver with tires having different patterns of grip and release

    3- discount tire
    Do not mix brands. You will notice a difference and not like it

    4- actual user (application C5 Z06):
    "I have the regular 555 tires up front (275/40-17) and 555R tires in the back (305/35-18). I was concerned that the R2 tires would not handle 535+rwhp.

    Well, they might be able to, but until I ride with someone who has them, I'll be sticking with my 555R tires in the rear. Cornering difference compared to the F1 Supercar tire is negligible for everyone except the hard-core road racer. I take high speed twisty back roads as fast as I ever did with the F1s and have no problems at all.

    However, the 555R tire hooks great...at least on the street (haven't had them on the track yet). Rolling from 5mph - 70mph takes ~3 seconds. They hook very well in 1st gear considering the power I'm putting down.

    I couldn't be more pleased. If the R2 proves to hook just as well, then I'd get those all the way around, but for my driving needs/style, my combo works great."

    ---

    (Note : R2 is discontinued and replaced with NT01)

    My personal opinion, since I did not find a whole set of road racing tires to fit oem 20"/20", it's best to take what people are happy with as a benchmark (MPSS) and find areas of desirable improvement (rear traction). So I thought MPSS or better for fronts (such as mpsc2) and nt555r rear (I was happy with the front pirellis so MPSS should be a massive improvement as is). Trofeo R although tempting may be overkill for my driving style. As for mixing tread patterns, equal levels of lots of water channeling on all four tires simultaneously is not a concern as I do not plan on ever driving in the rain (let alone spirited rain driving). Just require minimal tread if one tire goes over a puddle or if I get caught in rain and need to drive home slowly in distances under 50km. As for branding and compound mixing Imo it is a cause of alarm only for hardcore grip + sudden release of grip (until front regrips) and the extreme cases of under steer usually happens durning combinations of a hard cornering/inclining road surfaces/extra friction track surfaces/and high speeds like racing thru them. I am almost never in 1st gear in such situations or in a position of such climax in grip + release. I really don't beat that hard on the car it's more a smooth in smooth out driving style.

    Since all 3 tire guys say no to mixing compounds and nittos themselves consider 555 and 555r to be the "perfect pair" as listed on their website. I'm thinking maybe I'm being overly concerned about under steer.
     
  16. 599ing

    599ing Rookie

    Sep 7, 2010
    25
    #16 599ing, Nov 8, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2015
    I finally got my tires installed !
    NT555 fronts
    NT555R rears

    The acceleration with available traction in first gear is unbelievable! As long as the car is moving at any speed possibly as low as 1 kph onwards I have full traction throughout the entire rpm range even at aggressive full throttle pedal smack to the floor. No traction control electronics kick in whatsoever in sport mode. Shifting to second even at max rpm 8000+ does not chirp on the shift the car just flies and the shift itself feels awesome. That strong acceleration in first gear must look amazing for the viewers outside as well.

    As far as from a stand still goes, full pedal smack to the floor will enable traction control in sport and race mode just one time with a nice wheel spin and slight interruption of power (interruption of power is there but its not that bad). It will feel awesome and I feel I can do it again and again without any wheelhop. It does not feel like it puts stress on the car it just feels like great grip and a nice skid to please the spectators. However, doing the same in CST off mode will give a couple of highly power interrupting wheel hops and it will be much slower than sport/race mode because of that, and, wheel hop just sucks so why go for it (its not good to push the car to wheel hop anyway - I will not do this again but if you insist to try you should be able to do it once without damaging the car - i must say it still felt like abuse though). On Race or even sport mode, its plenty traction and I was just getting greedy at this point and hoped for no electronics to kick in at full acceleration on launch. So if you want to drag race this car with this tire setup, I would advise sport/race mode (not CST off). I feel the reason the traction control kicks in is because the f1 gearbox dumps the clutch (when you smack the pedal to the floor at launch). Its the sudden massive unleash of power. Its not moreso tire grip related. On a manual car if the driver eases off the clutch just a tad bit slower it should not lose traction. How I wish I could be in a manual 599 with these tires!

    Tests were done at 38-45 degrees C tire temps and 2.0bar (for the rears). In my past experience, optimal grip was at 50 C and upwards but I think with the nitrogen air in these tires and 27C weather it was hard (almost impossible) to get to 50C tire temps even after 30+min of driving.

    As for the fronts, I did not feel understeer trouble and I drove quite spiritedly (actually the fastest I could) through multiple back to back roundabouts at 2nd and 3rd gear. Also, did one of those long high speed curves at 200kph it was nothing worrisome. But, only on the high speed case, I did feel like my rear tires are more grippy than the fronts. I felt this when I eased off the throttle (its not like the car swerved or anything dangerously uncontrollable but I could just feel it from weight transfer I suppose - its nothing the passenger can notice). I have only done the high speed turn once so Im not even 100% sure if I want to confirm it just yet or if this feeling is just a worry in my head. For my driving style I dont plan on doing many 200kph driving on long curves, but frankly speaking, even if I did it would not be 'a problem'. Its controllable but not optimum.

    At this point I am very very pleased especially with the rear tires.
    Its important to note they are rated to 240kph but thats plenty for me.
    Every red light now is literally an 'awesome' opportunity and I cannot wait to encounter a 1000CC bike. If he doesnt expect me to go full throttle and tries to play catch up I should be able to take him til I shift to 5th gear (plenty of fun time).

    For the future, I might consider going with stickier fronts to get an upgrade in braking and handling. But seriously at this point, for spirited street driving I know Im getting greedy.

    No more bog in second gear shift, no more throttle pedal dance to get best traction.
    For the longest time I though full throttle on 1st gear was impossible in this car. Now I know it can just as long as the car is moving.

    I am very curious to know if the guys running michelin PSS tires have this much traction in first gear. I doubt I will ever choose a different tire for the rears. *Maybe* the fronts.

    Will try to post photos of tires next time. To me, they definitely look more race looking because of the wider tread blocks. The owner will notice a new tire look. But for the average viewer (not owner), they will go unnoticed.
     
  17. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    Fantastic. Very happy for you.

    With my 599 and MPSS K1, during the warmer months I usually will have grip for full acceleration from 0- whatever speed. As the temps cool, that is reduced. By the time its end of Fall into Winter, I know I have to be more careful (as you have to with all tires) Now if I try a start from 0, I could spin them if I wanted to / sometimes get spin into 2nd. But I won't drive like that. The other nice thing about the MPSS is the ride quality improved noticeably.
     
  18. drcollie

    drcollie Karting

    Dec 15, 2013
    111
    Putting drag radials on a 599 and going stoplight racing is beyond my comprehension. Get back to us after 5,000 miles and let us know how that all worked out for you, and the damage that was done to the car...
     
  19. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    What type damage are you alluding to?
     
  20. Roupin

    Roupin Formula 3

    Oct 7, 2013
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    Probably drivetrain.
     

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