612 OTO market values higher than FF | FerrariChat

612 OTO market values higher than FF

Discussion in '612/599' started by MoeD, Aug 29, 2015.

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  1. MoeD

    MoeD Formula 3
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    #1 MoeD, Aug 29, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    It was mentioned in another thread that Europe was indeed showing 612 One to One cars doing better than FF's in the market. OTO cars are proving very competitive as they sustain value while the oddly styled FF's seem to be tumbling.

    Having upgraded from a standard issue 612 to HGTS to 612 OTO, I have first hand experience as to the demonstrable difference in the updated evolution of the car as the OTO.

    Wow!~!
    It's so much the same Great 612 model but so vastly better that I can't help but tell myself that at potentially twice the price of a standard 612, it's so well worthwhile.---Hard to believe, but even my Good friend, who initially said he felt sorry for me spending that kind of money for a 612 as they bottom out at present; now confesses misspeaking, supports the worth of these cars, and would love to have one for himself as well after seeing and driving in it. The Superfast transmission, HGT2, Electrochromatic glass roof, Carbon Ceramic brakes and every other little bit of evolution of more parts of the car and it's character than can be named, really transform the 612 into everything it can be. Having had the Superfast transmission 2 years before the 599 HGTE, i say the OTO w/HGT2 is the 2+2 version of the 599 HGTE---OTO's are really that nice!

    Needless to say I'm So very content with my 612 OTO car ;)

    And with roughly only 50 cars in the states (near as I've been able to uncover), the value support seems to be there.

    With such a fervent passion for my own OTO, I decided to do a quick look at OTO vs. FF values in the U.S. and discovered the following:

    Market value asking prices today for FF's start at $172k with some meat in the market at about 200- 230k and then fewer cars north of that as you get closer to as new or new cars. I noticed between 40 and 50 cars on the market at one time.

    Market ask prices for the few OTO cars I've seen over the last month have ranged from about 200 to 230k, roughly at least twice a reasonable ask price of a standard 612, but owning the same price territory as FF's.

    And based on all of the above, I believe I'm concurring that here in the U.S we are seeing the same as Europe, as OTO's begin to outpace FF's in the used market. The European mention of OTO's doing better than FF's in the used market is now being experienced here as well. There are too few cars here in the U.S. for most to have really noticed a market trend until lately. But people who buy, market, and deal with OTO's are obviously in the know and current offerings are evidencing this.

    And another reason I bring this up is because of my overall love for the 612, whose capability and design seems to be proving more timeless with age. These cars are bottomed out pricewise right now, which is typical of the cycle with any F car before they rebound and pursue greater value over time, but I believe they will rebound with time more strongly than most will anticipate or imagine- 1) because the OTO proves that anything related to it is worthwhile , 2) because of the classic F car front engine V12 layout and timeless beauty of the design, 3) because the FF, despite its capability, has been such a letdown, largely owing to its oddball styling, and 4) because 12 cylinder front engine F cars will be going away for good with forthcoming model introductions.

    Commentary and photos are welcome... ;)

    -Moe D
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  2. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    Beautiful car. Good points. There will definitely be points of overlap but my basic reaction is I think the average FF market price will still be higher than the average 612 market price and this is not a knock on either car they are both great and have many fans. Personally I'd pick the 612 for reasons you discuss plus I am one of a minority but I don't like how the FF drives.
     
  3. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Karting

    Jan 3, 2015
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    Moe -
    You have a beautiful car and I really like that diamond stitch interior. As per this discussion, I think the 612 OTO is a great car and I really like mine, but I would have had an FF if my wife wouldn't have said "I can't let you spend over 200k on a hatchback". I think the changes to the FF are improvements including the gearbox and the motor, but the 612 is certainly no slouch and for a street car more than enough. I like the 612 styling more, but the FF is funky in a cool way. For now mine's a keeper, but I could see letting it go for an FF with the pano roof.
     
  4. Sandy Eggo

    Sandy Eggo F1 Rookie
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    There's little doubt the FF will be the last normally aspirated 12 cylinder 2+2 from Ferrari. In terms of future value, that will help a lot down the road. The shooting-break design is also a sure-fire winner for the long term. Quirky and cultish.

    I'd love to own a 612 - especially now that you can pick them (early ones) up all day long for less than $100k. The OTOs are amazing but I'm still not convinced as to why they are $100-150k more amazing. To me, a $50k premium is reasonable for the sum of the additional upgrades - the rest seems to driven by "market" and rarity (which I'm not willing to shell out for). It's a bit like the single mirror Testarossa versus the 512TR.
     
  5. johns930

    johns930 Formula 3

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    1st off, love ur polished mirrors and white diamond stitched interior ! congrats!
    let me write u a book too :)

    of course the 612 is my workhorse of a ferrari that I owned since new, I have 16k super fast miles and so far its the longest fcar I ever own mainly due to its huge depreciation and low desirability among ferraris. my car is one of only TWO OTOs and maybe one of only 5 or 6 total 612s in my country!! these things weren't popular when new. I got it for the sole reason that I needed and wanted all ferraris made at the time, so I did.

    Over the years I appreciated it more and more, always thought it was the most beautiful ferrari or of any car, it's elegant looks is like no other.
    I never tried selling it seriously, because u can't. Real Market value is always half or much worse than what I paid new, so I can't even have the luxury of treating selling as an entertainment like we always do when thinking of selling or replacing. the pure horror of losing half or more what I paid is crazy. and I won't even bother to tell u how much more an oto cost me compared to the tax free American prices.

    but time heals all wounds, now desirable FF is couple years old and they are suffering the same exact depreciation as my oto, but a little better.
    It suffers the same low desirability, only a little better sales numbers than the 612, maybe 9-12 FFs sold where I'm from, certainly no new cars in '15 and next to zero in '14 and that's compared to hundreds if not thousands of 458s already sold. I bought three 458s myself.

    a few weeks ago I started looking at this beautiful '13FF with my needs in color combo and options with next to nothing miles so I started to have fun negotiating my 612 for it.
    I only have one serious other bidder that wants a car like this, so no pressure.

    but unfortunately local values for used ff is still much higher than my oto, nobody or very few people appreciates the 612 like we do, the only people that appreciates an 612 already own one. U can't convince anybody to like or want an 612, but if u priced it cheap enough then u get someone to bite. I'm certainly enjoying mine enough not to let it go cheap.

    I drove two FFs extensively thru all my favorite roads at speed and I can say its miles faster and better handling than any 612, and its got that modern 458 feel that u know u wont be making repairs anytime soon.
    Sure it looks weird or even ugly but it drives and goes like or better than a 458 with a v12!! what's not to like?!? plus an ff is even more roomy than a 612.
    I think a 612 owner would love the FF, but I don't think a FF owner would trade for a 612, unless a big wad of cash was involved.

    I know this is a love OTO thread, and trust me, nobody loves a 612 OTO more than me, nobody owns one longer than me, no one drives it faster than me, nobody puts on more different wheels than me, nobody talks about it more than me,..... my 612OTO may stay forever :) Just not for conventional reasons.

    I don't buy or keep my cars for value, I use them as they are intended, which is to go fast in style! :) and I think my oto does plenty of that.
    if I cared about value, I would never spend anything close to that on any car.

    612 GTO - Rennlist Discussion Forums


     
  6. Piper

    Piper Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I really want an OTO some day.
     
  7. haroonok

    haroonok Formula 3

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    in the UK OTO values are climbing by the day ...!
    looks are everything with a Ferrari ...a 612 has them,an FF does not.
     
  8. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    Excellent excellent points!
     
  9. SciFrog

    SciFrog Formula Junior

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    Sorry but long term it makes no sense for early 612 to bottom around $70k but to have OTO around $200k and with used FF going to $150k and lower in a couple of years... That said the manual vs F1 premium doesn't really make sense either...
     
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  10. Piper

    Piper Two Time F1 World Champ
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    F1 was a flash in the pan historically. Everything before, manual. Everything after, dual clutch. Some day F1's are going to be special. Could be a while :)

    I think a big problem for early FF sales is the unknown maintenance factor. If they shake out to not be just money pits a couple years out of warranty, they'll probably do better. I hated the FF for a long time but it's aging....okay....in the right color. I could be convinced some day but it will be after the long term costs of ownership are predictable, if not horrendous.

    But 612 OTO has so much going for it, it's maybe holding the '12 FF's up a little at this point :)
     
  11. lor2435

    lor2435 Formula 3

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    That's a very interesting take on the F1...
     
  12. KY _Soldier

    KY _Soldier Formula Junior

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    I've never owned a Ferrari before so I can't speak to the price fluctuations but I would be hard pressed to turn $200k+ down for my 09 OTO. It's the right color, options, etc. The appreciation has made me more hesitant to rack up miles on it. I really want my cars to simply drive and enjoy. It's tempting to just get something else to drive a lot more and sell this one. At the same time, this car (at least mine) was a $363k build brand new, so moving towards the original price isn't exactly a staggering speculative number. There aren't a lot of them to be had. Thoughts???
     
  13. SciFrog

    SciFrog Formula Junior

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    I don't see why 612 and FF maintenance would be very different...
     
  14. Piper

    Piper Two Time F1 World Champ
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    FF drive train would be my biggest concern, very exotic awd, and a DCT taking 12cyl abuse. Very different cars.
     
  15. MoeD

    MoeD Formula 3
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    I've driven the FF and it's Super, probably the most advance F car to date, but it's big and bulbous and it needs simply to have the roof cut and a fastback coupe looking roofline installed- i even thought about commissioning one- but I was afraid I might never see that money again.

    LOL
     
  16. MoeD

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    #16 MoeD, Sep 2, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2015
    To address a few points made-

    I never thought the OTO was 100k better than a standard 612- but after driving one, I'm convinced I would and did go for it. My buddy said exactly that when he was riding in mine- that he never thought he'd say the car was worth the extra money over a standard 612, but when he actually said it, he said it exactly that way, that the car really was worth the extra money and while he wasn't a 612 follower, he was so impressed that he'd easily own an OTO and pay the OTO price.

    For the long haul, OTO's are rare and that will play into their prices, but they also do really warrant their value. It's not just the added features, but Ferrari seem to have evolved the car and polished off so much about it, that it seems truly seamless in execution against the base 612, which is a really nice car on it's own.

    The F1 single disc clutch issue IS a Good point- With time they may be something people look at as rarity and assign real value to it. The base 612 will a 12 cylinder F car worthwhile and with a rare transmission to boot.

    And this brings to light another point I wanted to mention- that often things are rare because they find no affection today or are improved upon at present, but down the road, their rarity invites value and associated attention. This would include not only the aforementioned F1 transmissions, but the base 612. The idea would also attach as well to the FF's oddball looks.

    For me, I love the OTO and the only purpose of this thread for me was to make it known that they are nicer than you think, and that that alone is enough to make me think that so is any 612, because their values will relate to OTO values. Base 612 values, although cyclically bottomed out at present, will rebound with authority down the road in my opinion.

    ;)
     
  17. shmluisfc

    shmluisfc Karting

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    F1 cars will NEVER go up because they're going to be rare and F1.
     
  18. ttn27

    ttn27 Formula 3

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    So in terms of current value as well as future value, a manual 612 or a 612 OTO, which one is worth more?
     
  19. haroonok

    haroonok Formula 3

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    sorry don't understand,could we have this in English please...
     
  20. MoeD

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    That's a Good question because their quantities might be on par with one another

    However stick cars are the rage right now- and I think those prices will climb faster at the moment.

    If 612 prices have bottomed and OTO cars are doing as well as they are, then it stands to reason that if/when 612 prices rebound, and I believe they will like most every Ferrari, then OTO prices may be pretty darn strong down the road.
     
  21. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    612 OTOs are rare not because they weren't appreciated when they were new, but because they had the bad luck to be an expensive car made to order during a time of economic stress.
     
  22. SciFrog

    SciFrog Formula Junior

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    The problem is that the 612 OTO will always be compared to the FF. I see OTO prices lined up with base FF for quite sometime. Personally I would not buy an OTO vs a FF. Not even close... I don't agree either that base 612 have bottomed out and will bounce. I think they have some more to go before it happens and that it will be a few years from now.

    The MT 612 is more puzzling however. It offers a difference driving experience and as others have said above, being coupled with a lot of torque just makes it very enjoyable. The package is a unique offer: 4 seats V12 manual, modern quality interior that can be updated to the latest a/v technology from the factory, trajectory control (that is very important to me). The low production numbers is just the cherry on the cake.

    As said in another thread, the only reason I still have the 612 vs buying an FF is the MT...
     
  23. momiji

    momiji Karting

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    Values are tending to bottom out 10-15 years after manufacture, give or take. Whilst the 612 OTO has improvements versus earlier 612's, it isn't dramatically different and is unlikely to be immune from further depreciation as they age and put on higher mileage (as well as shifting out of warranty periods). The earlier cars are also excellent.

    Both the 612 and the FF were controversial designs and were not universally appreciated at launch. There will be no more 612s made and it has absolutely classic front engine V12 Ferrari styling which is ageing well. The FF is a technical tour de force but is still being churned out by the factory, so maybe the depreciation curve will continue to be steeper than the 612 for a while.

    Both will certainly be considered classics over time, and will have a rarity premium over mid engined V8s, but who knows (or cares) what it will mean to their monetary values. I wouldn't buy an OTO as a speculation on price appreciation - but would buy one based on an appreciation of its design and features, and a desire to drive and enjoy it - like the OP clearly does
     
  24. MoeD

    MoeD Formula 3
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    The fact that OTO's are trading at such a premium over standard 612's has as much to do with the upgraded experience as the low production numbers.

    Production numbers of manual transmission cars are boasting comparable numbers to OTO's and so- I believe similarly, that manual transmission 612 pricing is based on the differing driving experience and the low production numbers.

    It wasn't long ago that manuals were old hat and nobody wanted them. If the manual cars were out there in numbers, they'd simply be an alternative driving experience of the 612 selling at similar money.

    I must admit, I am a manual transmission fan myself, having never sold my manual 456M when I got my first 612 because the F1 was different to me, not better. The Superfast twin disc tranny in the OTO's reall does impress me though.

    I still subscribe to the premise that anything rare and Ferrari will be worthwhile financially and that any model having a high ceiling price of one version or another, will hold up the values of the lesser or more common versions.

    I'm not meaning to compare 612's to FF"s, just the pricing maintained by OTO's as making a statement about OTO"s, and how that may translate to all 612's in the future...
     
  25. Piper

    Piper Two Time F1 World Champ
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    If we took the poll today, would you choose a 2010 612 OTO with 10k miles for $160k or a 2012 FF with 40k miles for $160k, which would you choose, and then took the same poll in say three more years with similar benchmarks, how would the answer vary. There are FF's at or below OTO prices not just because of the polarizing styling, but also owners are driving the hell out of their FF's. Universally, the driving experience is reported to be phenomenal. So will the maintenance prove to be a problem, and will the shooting brake gain in acceptance? These are the questions. I personally don't think the overlap will get any worse than it is. The very bottom FF's are just edging under the very best 612's. That's not saying too terribly much. But they are hugely different cars. Regardless the brand, I'm not a fan of the dual clutch. It's boring. But when the day comes hopefully when I'll be choosing one over the other, I can't really tell you just now which way I'd lean, but I'm assuming OTO.
     

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