Hello all- Have seen a few 2008 non-OTO HGT2s for sale, and interested in the gearbox differences in that vs the OTO and/or the OTO HGT2. I have a Maserati GT S F-1 Superfast and would love to pick up a 612 as my next car, but know I would hate to "downgrade" to a slower/worse F-1 after being spoiled with my Maserati. For those that have driven various versions of the 612 (and 599/GT S F-1 for that matter), what can you tell me about your experiences?
Great - I presently have both - an 2008 pre OTO 612 with CC's HGT2 etc and my wife's GTS with F1 - 612 shifts fast no disappointment there - GTS a bit more nimble but 612 more power There is a thread here that tells the difference tech wise between non OTO and OTO clutches but I personally don't think it makes much difference on a daily basis - if you went with an older 612 there is a difference Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Stole this from one of Taz's responses: F355: 250 ms 360: 150 ms 575M: 220 ms Challenge Stradale: 150 ms 612: 180 ms 575M HGTC: 180 ms F430: 150 ms 612 HGTS/HGTC: ~160 ms 599: 100 ms 612 Sessanta/OTO: 100 ms 612 OTO HGT2: ~80-85 ms Scuderia/16M: 60 ms 599 HGTE: ~80-85 ms 599 GTO: 60 ms Basically, the 612 started with F1-A. Then improved somewhat with HGTS and non-OTO HGT2, before F1-S was implemented with Sassanta and OTO. Hope this helps.
I have a 2007 612 HGTC (160 ms shift) and a 430 Scuderia (60 ms shift) - for daily and spirited use I find the 612 shifting to be just fine. Not sure having it shift faster would bring any benefits to the driving experience on the 612 - not a race car by any means anyway... Don't get carried away by numbers and spec sheets - go drive one and see what you think.
Hard to get more specific than that! Love your collection, and thanks for the feedback. Now that I have you...how else would you compare the two cars? Interior space, "daily drivability", personality, etc. Unfortunately haven't run into many around Orlando to take a ride in, but hopeful to drive a good example soon! FF is the other option, and they are tremendous cars, but there is a draw to the 612 more these days.
Basically the difference is one is a Mas (although good one) and the other is a luxury Ferrari - more comfortable, luxury, different feel - I love it - to me at least feels like a classic - I drive aggressively and live on mountain roads - it handles it all great - I do go thru rear tires though just because I can Image Unavailable, Please Login
I don't think this tells the whole story and I can't technically explain why, but I've had various vintage single plate clutches, 2002 360 spider, 2006 430 spider, 2005 612. None of them feel different from each other. There's more going on than just the shift time represented in this stat and I lack the technical knowledge to explain it. But none of them come anywhere close to the driving experience of the twin plate dry clutch. I've never driven a 2008 HGT2, but I seriously doubt the difference between it and an OTO is unremarkable. I fully expect it's very significant. The 599 feels completely different than all the single plate F1's I've had. Hugely different. Sent from my SM-N900A using Tapatalk
Giving a bit more consideration to this, bit more recollection, so for me the issue has always been engaging 1st and in some cases shifting 2nd. What all three of the older single plate F1's I owned had in common was a need to finesse from N into 1st. That affects so much of every day driving, how well you can pull out in traffic for instance. I'm sitting there in a ferrari for God's sake wanting to pull out in traffic, and it's not the acceleration once I'm in first, but the second or two it takes me to ease into 1st. My minimal clutch wear tells me I was doing a very good job of it, so it wasn't operator error. The older F1's took a long time to engage first. The F1-S, you touch the gas, a tiny bump later you're in 1st. I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't care less about shaving 20-40 milliseconds off my shift times between 3rd and 4th or 4th and 5th. There's more going on with the process of getting the clutch engaged in first than a shift time, and therein lies all the driveability. The 360 was a bit of a ***** from 1st to 2nd, took a little careful accelerator control to keep it from jerking for some reason. Unrelated to the topic at hand, I digress.
Bob- Not an issue in my 575M, but we change half the F1 fluid every year and all of it and bleed/self-check/PIS set every three years. I am a neutral coast to a stop guy, too, so the N-1st shift gets a lot of work-out
All of them are the old single plates are the same, you can bump 'em to engage faster, but the gentlest way always took a good full second, maybe the F430 was a tad better. I've test driven several more and they all feel the same. The F1-S does engage first much quicker for whatever reason. Okay, so maybe it is driving habit and the F1-S compensated for my habits. I was always a neutral to coast guy as well.
Summarizing, but yes - even though the question was about shift speed, I am really equating that to shift behavior, and assuming that faster minimum shift times really is just a metric to identify the most advanced boxes (which would be better when normally accelerating from a stop along with banging through the next gear at the limit). It's been a while since I drove a F-1 360, but I just remember it being so...clunky. I wasn't even thinking of the Maser in F-1 until someone convinced me to drive one after I drove a 2011 automatic GT S. In my head at least, it was WORLDS of difference from the 360 in how it felt (and obviously my choice vs newer autobox). Maybe there is a magical number for shifting quickness where it feels "seamless" to humans around that 100ms range.
Bob I never have experienced what you are talking about in my HGT2 - I've had 5 modern Ferraris nd see no noticeable difference in the shifting - obviously the Scud is faster
Maybe Steve can bring my 599 back to your place and you can do some side by sides with your 612. I had an older 612 side by side with my 599 in my garage and alternated driving them for four months daily. If you do the same, do some tests like starting from a dead stop making a turn going slightly uphill to exaggerate what I'm talking about and I guarantee you and Terry, either of you, would come to the same conclusion. The difference is not in milliseconds. EDIT: I freely concede that the difference could be to even a large extent finesse. But given the clutch readings, I know for certain I was maximizing clutch if not drive experience. Sent from my SM-N900A using Tapatalk
Bob- Have never seen that in 8+ years of driving F1 with even older software than a 612. Pull paddle and you can hear the immediate click from behind where the F1 actuator is located.
Terry, that's why I'm saying there's more going on here than just the actuator shift time specifically. And like I said, I lack the technical knowledge and vocabulary to adequately describe it. But the fact is if you start off slow to maximize clutch life in an early 612 the process from pulling that flappy paddle to actually feeling where the clutch is fully engaged takes an order of magnitude longer then the advertised time in milliseconds. The F430 was better than the 612 was better than the 360, but the 599 was a world of difference above them all. Sent from my SM-N900A using Tapatalk
All I know is that F1 and F1-A is not kind in AUTO mode. Not so sure about F1-S. It is definitely better on the track, by reducing workload and improving shift times (especially 2nd). Even the early version on 355s was worth having on a track. However, on the road, I still prefer MT. I know DCT is much better, but it is not a Ferrari product; it is from Getrag and used in other brands. F1 was derived from Ferrari racing and is exclusive to Ferrari - and a few late Maseratis.
I tried auto once and only once in each car just to see. Absolutely awful in all but the 599, but the ridiculous number of downshifts rolling to each stop was unbearable. Doubles the wear on the throwout bearing, too.
Cool. It's all good. I just think with a side by side, one after the other, doing what I'm describing, you'll experience what I'm talking about. Next time Steve is up, do it for fun.
Was with Steve at FCA Little Switzerland event a week ago - he takes perfect care of your old car - he is building a new home on a waterfall in NC - when I get over there will take pictures for you - he is really a great guy with a long ferrari history
I really enjoyed meeting him. Glad he loves the car as I did. My wife and I need to come check out Ashville. Always heard such good things. I've rebuilt business back almost to what it was, going to triple that and then look for a new homestead myself. Unhealthy buzz up here in Northern VA.
Would love to meet you all - Steve said your a nice guy and that is good enough for me - plus I've been reading your posts for years and you r very straight up - Asheville is our city - know it really well - great health care, wonderful schools for the Kids - don't know what your wife's interest are but art abounds - all kinds and the food is great - in addition to our house on Cold Mnt, we have a penthouse (only 7 stories) in Asheville and they are only 35 minutes from each other - great combination - town is very eclectic - restaurant on every corner, walk everywhere - lots of hippies and others - tin cups and music everywhere - very safe to walk around at night. The picture I attached is a piece of art from a local well known artist - drink all u want and walk home - can't be a too long of drive from your area - let me know if u want to get away John Image Unavailable, Please Login
Bob- I think I know what you are talking about now. Not the time it takes to shift from neutral to 1st, which is very quick, but the time it takes for the clutch to engage once you press on the accelerator pedal. That is strictly a function of how hard you press on the pedal. The slower the push, the longer it takes.
