would like personal experience w 599 driving characteristics

Where are you doing these speeds, what are the road conditions? I found my 599 was very stable going straight at higher speeds on the track. BUT, the car does not like choppy roads. The car can be a bit edgy/ bite if you are not careful with the throttle coming out of corners.

 

This is interesting. The GTB series of cars were known as Grand Touring Berlinettas. They were designed not really for the track but for business men traveling at high speed between cities. Think Italy and the autodromo. Somewhere along the way buyers just assumed all Ferrari's were track cars. The 599 dissapointed some of these buyers so Ferrari came out with the HGTE package which improved trackability. Cost aroung $35K. Yes you can drive it on the track but that is not really its mission. Other models are more suited for that.

 

I always said my 599's felt like it was always trying to throw you in a ditch or hedge when pressing on, it needs to be driven 100%+ when you're making progress as as others have said I'm sure it can bite. I never reached that point but the feedback was there to ensure you respected it.

i once described the feel as if it was driving on spheres with a minimal contact patch.

 

The car does get a bit edgy and loose when given strong throttle out of corners. It is an imbalanced car with a ton of power. It is not meant to be completely stable. I think part of the fun is pushing the limits, just be careful, it can bite.


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This is strange, I have just come off the phone to my parts guy, we were talking about a spare set of F12 wheels and then got on back on to the 599 HGTE wheels !

He told me they fitted an HGTE kit to a car and it would just not handle correctly on normal roads, they swapped tyres etc and even had Ferrari out to look at it, he told me that when they put the old wheels back on [ not the HGTE wheels ] it was fine, and he thought it was a tracking problem with the HGTE wheels and that is why Ferrari changed to the Alonso wheels.
I am just repeating what he has just said 5 mins ago.

I can confirm that on normal roads at full throttle the car was scary and wandered all over the place, I had had new wishbones etc fitted and the tracking done under warrantee and it mad no difference. I had fitted HGTE wheels to my car.

 

Well its more stable as long as its not wet or cold, then the extra power negates as extra stability. Overall I feel the F12 is way head of my old 599, the gearbox is much better, the power management systems are much better, brakes, suspension etc, its a bit too quiet for me without the vales open, so I have had fitted a remote to sort that out, so its quiet when I need it to be! Ie when my wife is with me!!

I think the road wandering, is a wide tyre problem. I drove a Lusso earlier this year and that seem worse on uneven roads than my F12!

 

I have driven the HGTE at Monte Tremblant, and my experience is that it can feel a little loose and there rear will wiggle a bit. On my own 599, I installed the HGTE wheels, sway bar, but not the springs. Still the front has more initial bite in turn in. On spirited driving the car is fine up to about 80%, anything above that and it requires a little more attention with the wheel, power and rear of the car.
I am thinking of an F12 too. They are night and day.

 

Note the front wheels on the 599, even the HGTE, are narrow for the size and power of the 599. On both the GTO and F12, front wheel size increased to 9.5". Might help the 599.

 

I understand what you meant when comparing to 996tt, gtr, c7 vette, these are much tamer cars comparing to 599. I was pro driver when I was younger, also helped develop tires and suspension for racing.

599GTB with street tires in stock form is set up for street driving mainly, its perfectly fine in Sport mode. It gets a bit touchy on Race and off. Not sure what Pirelli you were on, I would assume that you were on street tires. If your track surface isn't smooth enough (most tracks in the US have crap surface btw), the 599 on Race and off mode can be very sensitive, it would actually reduce grip too. I personally wouldn't drive in Sport mode at the track, it bothers too much. Then again, Race and off modes are not ideal either.

I know lots of ppl here will argue with me on this, but I will tell you what I know, nor what they wanna hear. HGTE pkg films everything up will make this car a lot worse to drive as the normal driver, the car will be even less stable. (assuming on street tires)
To solve your problem, you can try some softer tires, like R888, PSC2, RS3, etc. stay in this level of tires which is track and streetable at the same time, but DO NOT go with tires more sticky than this level, or your traction will most likely become on and off switch.

Some reference to other cars you mentioned. All these cars are more forgiving to mistakes than 599 as a comparison. 599 is still an easy car to drive, when you set it up right and learn its FR behavior. Try an early year Murci or early years Viper, you will know what's what.

996tt: I never drove one, but I had driven 997tt and 991tt. They are very easy cars to push around and the traction control can never truely 100% off. Powering out the corner in these cars are very easy, lots of grips. Very forgiving car.

GTR: in stock form, this car is one of the best street cars ever made for track. With traction on, it fools u and hides all your mistakes, and post a fast track time others dream of. With every off, the car can dancy, it needs very close attention driving it to the perfect as the car is too forgiving, you are easy to make some mistakes that you are aware of. Those ppl who say this car drive like robot is the rookies, they don't understand how to fine-trim a driving line with throttle input, steering angle, braking, etc.

C7vette: I drove C6 ZR1 and Z06 for tire testing a couple of weeks, they were not very refine in every particular category. Take time to get used, but once you mastered it, it becomes very easy. Not sure about C7, haven't tried it on track yet.

Oh one last thing, in 599, when you are breaking, make sure you are braking on the straight or braking it in a straight line manner, when you do braking and turn in together at the same time, or at the end of braking and you start turning the car, the car wouldn't like it.

Been a long writing, might be hard to understand for you cuz my English, here's some points to sum it up:
1. Better and softer tires will help.
2. Lowering the car will help. (If you don't believe me, ask someone take a picture of your 599 when doing 130mph + on the straight, you will see the ass is lift. its normal for a street car without serious aero. )
3. Don't brake and turn-in at the same time.
4. Check alignment before track days. Adjust the camber and toe according to your tires.
5. Learn the driving behavior of the car.

 

Michelin Pilot Super Sports seem to help on the 599 and 612. For the 599, GTO size on the rears, 315/30 20s, because 305/30 20s were not available last time we checked. The Pirellis have kind of been squirrelly and seem to get hard fairly quickly.

 

This is very interesting to me, because I have found the 612 to be very stable at high speeds, both on the road and on the track. I wonder if the extra length and weight has something to do with it?

 

Just a few thoughts to add, as there is good input posted above...

I lived with and drove a 599HGTE for about 6 months, including some limited (2-3 days) of track driving, including some direct back-to-back with other cars. Consider my opinions as input, and impressions..

First, ANY car can have some odd handling characteristics due to specific issues - eg. you have one bad damper, a slightly out of spec tire, alignment/setup off. It's impossible to really diagnose and solve on the web...and candidly, most Ferrari (or otherwise) techs are not experienced at solving setup problems.

The 599 platform is great, but it is what it is - a mildly overpowered, front engine/rear drive, arguably under-tired, somewhat soft (i.e. GT) and heavy car. Like the F12, it requires attention to drive hard, but then again that's sort of how the car was designed. (Airliners are designed to be stable and easy to fly; fighters are designed to be marginally stable)

In my experience, the 599 itself was an awesome GT car - on open roads and twisty roads. The tracking was just "ok" - the factory designed the car to understeer, but left the steering a bit edgy. On rough roads, or even rutted freeways, the car needs the driver to be on top of the steering (for good, or bad). Once the chassis takes a set into a corner, it's predictable and tracks nicely. The electronics are there mostly to help you prevent power-on (or, power-off) oversteer. Remember, the car is heavy and the laws of physics still apply.

From what you're describing, I'm imagining a bit of tramlining is happening, I'm assuming your tires/pressures are good, but a lot of it is organic to the car. Like the HGTE (and, GTO, and F12tdf) the car feels like it's dancing over pavement at times, but if you load it up I'd imagine it feels better.

As for the braking, as with most front engine cars, the rear end will dance a bit (or, feel like it) under max braking. In my experience, a harder brake application (i.e. more racing technique) sets the car better; most street drivers start braking softly and add pressure as they slow, which keeps the suspension a bit floaty.

My suggestions? invest in an alignment. Ask people here what combination of tires/pressures help. Think about what's happening when you're feeling the car "not working" - on throttle or off? straight or turn? how much steering lock? etc etc

 

I just found this Taz, so the front wheel width was increased by 1/2 inch?

 

George- Affirmative.

599/HGTE/SA Aperta


Five Spoke F 19”, R 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm

Front 8J X 19 ET 43.5 mm, Rear 11J X 20 ET 63.8 mm

Challenge Monolithic 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm

Front 8J X 20 ET 43.5 mm, Rear 11J X 20 ET 63.8 mm

HGTE/SA Aperta Five Spoke 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm

Front 8.5J X 20 ET 40 mm, Rear 11J X 20 ET 63.8 mm


599 GTO


Five V/Ten Spoke 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm

Front 9.5J x 20” ET 38.1 mm, Rear 11.5J x 20” ET 63.8 mm

 

Don, I agree re my 612. The car seems to handle much better at high speeds. It seems to “settle” above 80 and becomes very stable up to 135. I have not gone beyond that as I only drive on the road.

On Michelin’s I totally agree. I started with Pirelli P Zeros and changed to Michelin Super Sports. Much better.

 

Excellent, thank you Taz.

 

Horses for courses...

I've driven my 599 on a track, and on long straight aways it floats a little ~140mph at the end before getting on the brakes. Lots of body roll in esses and on the corkscrew at Laguna Seca. Not designed for the track, my Speciale is. I did have lots of fun this weekend in the rain doing sone impromptu "skidpad" play in the rain on an empty parking lot. Much fun w CST off, but I wouldn't do that on the road or a track at speed (see Top Gear w Jeremy Clarkson afraid of the car w CST off when they tested it).

I have driven an 812 both on the track (Monticello) and on the roads at "high" speed ( a friend's). The 812 is more responsive, and agile, a better all-around car, but it is two generations removed.

For a long weekend run to Vegas or Carmel from SoCal, the 599 is great. The Laguna Seca trip, I trailered the Spec up and drove the 599 up. There were a number of guys driving 488's up who were surprised that my "old" Ferrari had no problem hanging with them on spirited sprints on open road. I wouldn't have wanted to drive the Spec on that trip (scalpel vs carving knife). For shorter drives, don't love the 599 so much as the big V12 and first generation ceramic brakes need to warm up before at their best.

Hope this helps.